I ask those Christian Apologists among the community not to defend their faith...

But do defend THIS, this "Woe is us, we poor, persecuted Christians" sentiment.

Your faith is fine, I think you're wrong, but so long as a truck load of soldiers aren't blown up or a classroom doesn't have to teach everything came from a divine daddy as well as real science or people are told AIDS is bad but condoms are worse or whatever else...fine, believe what you will.

But if you sympathize with this sentiment, PLEASE...why?

I assume you're American, obiwanobiwan? I wouldn't say that Christianity is dominant as a political philosophy in western Europe. And a lot of those things you listed are really not applicable to the case in the article, which has to do with Anglicanism. Christian thought is decaying everywhere in western Europe. While I wouldn't call them persecuted, I can understand his point of view.

I'm not British though. I'd love to hear what Sargmacher would say about this.

Wait...one of the reasons they are mad is because a marriage counselor would not counsel a gay couple and then got sacked. I don't get it...If you refuse to do your job, you should get sacked.

Obi, your anti-Christian rants are getting kind of predictable....

Anyway, I don't agree with all the archbishop's claims. I do think Vaft has a good point, though, that your claims aren't that true in Europe anymore. Moreover, there has unquestionably been some low-level persecution against Christians both there and here, usually in the form of speech restraints or the like. (Think pastors in various European countries being jailed for saying homosexuality is wrong). Of course, much of that would just boil down, here, to free speech and free exercise. Going to Strasbourg seems a little dramatic, but anyway.

Wearing thin....the Anti-Christian, Christians-are-the-root-of-all-evil, Pro-Atheist (or anything NOT Christian) bigotry.

Obiwan is the **EXACT** thing he claims to hate ---- HE is a fucking hate-filled bigot. Get a life, douche bag. The *extreme* hatred and lack of tolerance I see in these forums for Christians makes your idiotic post 1. Just another in a long line of...and 2. Proves your own point wrong...if Christians are so dominant, why is there so little public support for them?

Asswipe.

Of course (according to Obi) if you aren't reading Shakespeare, you haven't read yet. If you are reading a novel that is popular in society...it *must* suck. If you watch a movie you are probably a moron to begin with, but particularly if it is an adaptation of a book. Superheroes of stupid...and, let's see...if you claim to be an intellectual, then instead of being intelligent enough to be *concise* with words when expressing, thoughts, you must demonstrate your superiority by frequently replying with posts that are 50 time the length of whatever he is critiquing (bludgeoning people with *volume* of words, rather than precision of thought...)

Since Obi has clearly demonstrated his bigotry on MOST topics...I again find him *laughable* when complaining about bigotry...

@Vaft:

Yes, I am an American.

And I think I said it was the dominant religion--not political theory--in the West, and that's still quite true, and by a sizable, sizable margin...the Jews aren't going to overtake them, or the Muslims, or Buddhists...Atheism isn't a religion, but even that...while I'd like to see it happen in my lifetime (and I actually read somewhere Britain may be 50/50 or even majority-Atheist in about 30 years or so) the fact of the matter is, as RELIGIONS go...

There's absolutely no argument to be made--East of Arabia, Christianity has the monopoly on faith (And ALL the money and power that comes with it...I'm not crying for an over-powerful corporation--and that's what they are, in a way, they're selling an idea, and their faith and, let's not forget, in the Middle Ages, you COULD "buy your way" into Heaven with pardons and ponying up for new Churches and all that--losing some windfall after centuries of brutalizing others and forcing them to pay up or be put down.)

@semck:

For the first part of that...see my response to Vaft...

"Moreover, there has unquestionably been some low-level persecution against Christians both there and here, usually in the form of speech restraints or the like."

If we're REALLY going to get into a "Freedom of Speech Being Restrained" contest...

Considering what the CHURCH did (up to and including killing Jews and other infidels for not believing quite as they did AND demanding Galileo recant his scientific discovery that, well, the Earth in fact goes around the sun and NOT the other way around)...

I don't think they get to complain about their freedom of speech being obstructed, and to answer your next bit in tandem with that, as it's a likely objection to this point,

"(Think pastors in various European countries being jailed for saying homosexuality is wrong)."

Again, I have a VERY hard time feeling sorry for them when

1. They preach homosexuals are sinful and will burn for an eternity (and I know not all sects preach that, just saying, those that do...)

And, more to the point, again,

2. Since the Church, again, KILLED people for daring to state their beliefs that THEY didn't agree with when the Church was at it's zenith...

A bit of turnabout isn't fair play? We're not chopping off heads here or anything nearly so drastic and inhumane as they exercised at their height...and while I will concede I would be against jailing someone for hate speech alone (and that's what I'd term their slandering homosexuals) I will say that that equates more, I think, to a legal quibble and not to a wholesale persecution of Christians and Christianity.

"Persecution," being a strong word, needs some strong actions to back it up, I think...

The Spanish Inquisition and the Holocaust were persecutions.
To get away from my Jewish-background bias, driving out the Native Americans--persecution.
Ethnic cleansing in Africa--persecution.

Jailing a few pastors and publicly mocking Creationists when the former spew hate speech and the latter incoherent dribble backed only by ancient and over-translated texts as opposed to nearly all of science saying it's wrong?

...Not persecution.

@krellin:

Let's go step by step...

"Wearing thin....the Anti-Christian, Christians-are-the-root-of-all-evil, Pro-Atheist (or anything NOT Christian) bigotry."

--I don't think Christians are the root of all evil, at all...I think that religion is the root of the majority of evil on the planet right now, in one form or another, but:

1. That goes for nearly ALL religions, especially Christianity AND Islam, being responsible for so many deaths between them (Judaism too, to be fair, if we're going to go back a while and then also focus very recently, it's just less talked of since for 2,000 years the Jews were essentially one without an Army of God, so to speak, but if they'd been as powerful as the Christians and Muslims in the Middle Ages, they may have committed like atrocities too...I'd hope not, but I'll concede it possible) so no, this isn't any sort of special denunciation of Christianity, it just gets the de facto focus as I'm a child of the West and not the East; if it were the other way around I'd be using the Muslims as my example.

--Christianity HAS allowed for good things...most notably in my view, some great art (again, after "Hamlet," krellin, "Paradise Lost" is my favorite work ever, and they don't come much more Christian than Milton in his Genesis-based epic) so I'm not accusing it of being a black whole of evil, just that it's run it's course, is causing more harm than good and HAS caused far more harm than good; as much as I love Milton and Shakespeare and all the other authors who took Christian themes and imagery and used them to great effect, that does NOT make worthwhile the untold suffering and suffocation of science and genocide that's occurred over the centuries, and in any case, rare is the author of the magnitude of a Milton or Shakespeare or--to really go the Christian route--Dostoyevsky who would've been totally unable to write without Christianity...it's nice they took some themes and made some great pieces of literature and art and culture with it, but they'd have found something else of not for Christianity which, like it or not, HAS led to more deaths than just about any other idea spread around the globe (again, Christianity/Islam, when I say one, I mean both, one is just shorthand for both and, again, most religion.)

--"Obiwan is the **EXACT** thing he claims to hate ---- HE is a fucking hate-filled bigot. Get a life, douche bag."

...Well, first, at least I can have a civil conversation about a subject without getting my panties in a twist and crying like a three-year old because someone dared question my sacro-sanct ideas...I'd defend him, but I doubt I'd go so far as you have here (and look as foolish, I might add) if you called Shakespeare the worst author in the history of man.

Secondly--bigotry requires prejudice, and I'm, not prejudiced here, I'm stating facts that, well, after all those centuries where the Church suppressed viewpoints and oppressed people, now, in the age of free press, when THEY get attacked, suddenly to call foul seems a bit of a double standard.

".if Christians are so dominant, why is there so little public support for them?"

So LITTLE public support?

krellin...have you BEEN to America, or at least heard of it?

You can't get elected to office without kissing God's ass after every speech, up to and including when you're President (and actually, in Texas, it's LITERALLY ILLEGAL for atheists to hold office.)

75%+ of Americans identify as being Christian.

I recall it being closer to 2/3 in England, maybe closer to 60/40 now (correct me if I'm wrong, UKers) but that seems like another clear majority...

And so on and so forth.

Atheists are in the minority, just the rapidly-growing minority.

So...how is that little public support?

"Asswipe."

Well...I certainly didn't mean to hurt your over-sensitive feelings by daring to post a thread which you didn't have to comment in...so sorry, I'll try and take your thin-skin and shaky mentality into consideration next time (or you could, you know, either post like a big boy or, well, not post and ignore me if I'm that insignificant...)

"Of course (according to Obi) if you aren't reading Shakespeare, you haven't read yet."

Quote me ONE TIME when I said that; there's a difference between liking something (and even holding that something as the best in it's field) and saying that you're a moron if you don't agree.

I've said before--and right above again, in fact--that if you want to disagree on Shakespeare, go ahead, just be mature about it...

It's that last, "mature" bit you have trouble with, I'm afraid.

(Also, since according to you, it seems, if I disagree with your position, de facto I'm an ignorant asswipe, doesn't that make it hypocritical for you to then turn around and try and accuse me, albeit falsely, of the very crime you've just committed?)

"If you are reading a novel that is popular in society...it *must* suck."

Toni Morrison's popular...I've endorsed her...
"The Road" is an excellent novel, 2006, and got a 2009 film...must be just a tad popular...
I even at length admitted I was wrong about THG (though I still say Collins was a bit careless and it could've been leaps and bounds better)...
I've said the same of Harry Potter...

And so on, so, care to try again?

About all I'll say that "sucks" in popular books right now, categorically and utterly sucks, is Twilight--

And disagree if you want...just know you're in the minority, at least on the site, there, so it can't just be overly-elitist Obi who finds that crap to be...well...crap...

Moving on...

"If you watch a movie you are probably a moron to begin with"

...I've actually had Top Movie list threads before, so...that baseless attack came from...?

" but particularly if it is an adaptation of a book."

I think most here would agree that when it comes to book/film adaptations, the book is almost always better, there's just more room to be more detailed and there are no time or budget constraints and no limit to your imagination as a reader...usually the big exception here either for plays/Hollywood-style novels (hence why Shakespeare and Jane Austen and the Bronte Sisters have seen so many adaptations...the former is the most popular playwright, so he gets a lot of adaptations, and the latter group have plots that are very much in the Hollywood-romance vein, so they have received a lot of adaptations for TV and film, too.)

"Superheroes of stupid"

...I said that WHEN???...Seriously, where are you getting THAT ONE? O.o

"and, let's see...if you claim to be an intellectual, then instead of being intelligent enough to be *concise* with words when expressing, thoughts, you must demonstrate your superiority by frequently replying with posts that are 50 time the length of whatever he is critiquing (bludgeoning people with *volume* of words, rather than precision of thought...)"

Well, guess you won't like the length of this then.

And since when did quantity=quality?

I like longer responses because that's just how I write and talk and think and type--

You'll find the same thing in books--for every 800-page Dostoyevsky there's a 75-page "Of Mice and Men" by John Steinbeck that people love as well.

There are long Shakespeare speeches, and then there's the fast peppered dialogue of a Samuel Beckett play.

A Mozart symphony or a Rolling Stones song or (while I don't care for it) a rap song.

Different strokes for different folks...I critique them, but that doesn't mean I can't handle them.

So why can't you? (And, I'd remind you, no one's forcing you to read by stuff if you think it's garbage...a simple "tl;dr" will suffice...)

"Since Obi has clearly demonstrated his bigotry on MOST topics...I again find him *laughable* when complaining about bigotry..."

Since krellin has clearly demonstrated his ignorance inn MOST of his points raised here...I find him *pitiable* when complaining about *my* ignorance...

The current trend in western Europe is towards agnosticism. This is not the case in eastern Europe where there is a slight increase in people professing faith. That is, if you believe in the statistics of the EU. In the Eurobarometer poll of 2005, in the UK 38% claimed to believe in God, 40% in "some sort of spirit or life force", 20% believed that there is no God. In a Gallup poll from 2008, 71% of British people claimed that religion plays no important part in their life. When the question is "Are you Christian?", the number of people are higher, but that includes those who self-identify as Christian by birth or tradition and not by personal faith.

Wow, @obi, that's a pretty shocking response.

Christians have suppressed free speech in the past, and oppressed various people. Atheists have suppressed free speech in the past, and oppressed various people. All manner of different groups, in fact, have done so, for all manner of different reasons.

Instead of saying "turnabout is fair play," or "two wrongs make a right," how about we just say, hey guys, we're going to have free speech from now on, and nobody's going to be oppressed?

"I don't think they get to complain about their freedom of speech being obstructed."

I do. I think anybody gets to complain about their freedom of speech being obstructed when it's obstructed. You think Christians don't because they oppressed Galileo 400 years ago? What the heck is wrong with you?

""(Think pastors in various European countries being jailed for saying homosexuality is wrong)."

Again, I have a VERY hard time feeling sorry for them when

1. They preach homosexuals are sinful and will burn for an eternity (and I know not all sects preach that, just saying, those that do...)"

Nobody asked you to "feel sorry" for them. My point was just that their freedom is being curtailed so, yes, they are being persecuted. What does feeling sorry for somebody have to do with anything?

"2. Since the Church, again, KILLED people for daring to state their beliefs that THEY didn't agree with when the Church was at it's zenith..."

And this is the problem of a modern-day preacher in France because....?

Wait, you're Jewish, right? Didn't your people slaughter the Amalekites a few thousand years ago? Dadgum it, obi, the heck if I'm going to stand up for you the next time the police throw you in jail for no reason. You deserve what's coming to you.

"Jailing a few pastors .... not persecution."

No, I'm sorry. If you get put in jail for stating your beliefs, that's persecution. You can argue about the level, but it's completely absurd to say it's not persecution. Try changing the context to the 1960s civil rights battles and see how your position sounds.

I'm not sure you've ever posted a more absurd, illiberal thing since I've been here.

From the article, it sounds like the 'persecution' here is that they want to be able to discriminate against gay people, so they hijack the language of discrimination and try to make themselves the victim. Sorry, the state isn't going to sanction your horrible treatment of gays, women, and other minorities. Get over it.

Also, saying you believe there is no God doesn't mean you stay clear from being superstitious and believing in supernatural bullshit. Plenty of those atheists believe in fortune tellers and similar shit.

"I'm not sure you've ever posted a more absurd, illiberal thing since I've been here."

Because we must coddle hate speech from Christians else we're 'illiberal'

@Putin,

You got it. I'll call anybody illiberal who thinks someone should be put in jail for saying some behavior is wrong. That includes anybody who thinks you should be put in jail for thinking the Christian speech in question is wrong. As long as it's OK in principle to jail people for calling something wrong, the dominant ideology will always want to jail the minority. There's nothing new here. Obi's quite right, the Christians have done it in the past, and it wasn't right then. It's still not right now.

Incidentally, I actually agree you with you (as I remarked as an aside in my initial post) that most of the things cited by the Archbishop in his complaint do not strike me as state persecution. Only the British Airways worker is marginal, and I'd have to know more about the policies of the company at the time.

I forgot that gay people are a 'behavior'.

Putin,

Most Christians who believe that homosexuality is wrong believe only the actions they may take are wrong, not their desires, identity, or existence.

But just to be clear and avoid rabbit trails, I'll go ahead and say that I layed out a very limited version of free speech before. I'd actually take it much farther than that. I defend the right of anybody to say almost anything legally, with very few exceptions, all of which (and then some) have been enshrined in American law. I'd happily call illiberal anybody who didn't come at least 90% of the way with me on this.

Haaaa ha ha! Obi....you're such a sucker. first of all....your defense of my hyperbole against you is *priceless*. + a million for me for setting you off SOOOO easily, moron. Clearly a case of **GUILTY CONSCIENCE** Mister Aggorant Obi...because in your heart of hearts (and in everyone's mind) you know I more right than wrong about your particular form of arrogant bigotry, asswipe.

As for your sudden half-assed attempt to defend the good of Christianity, too little too late, Mr Bigot. As for your "all religion is evil"....moron, ATHEIST HAVE COMMITED AS MUCH OR MORE EVIL IN THE WORLD AS CHRISTIANS. It is moronic BIGOTS LIKE YOU that continually stoke the fires of hatred. But seriously....your "all religions suck" claim....REALLLLLY.....maybe you can point out the EQUAL PERSECUTION of ALL RELIGONS by Obi....Because, by my watching of these forums, Christianity takes the BRUNT of the attacks on religion. You know....because hundreds and hundreds of years ago they did this or that....Of course, the narrow minded bigot seeking to attack modern Christianity will take the acts of a few wackjobs and try to paint the entire religion with the actions of a few. of course, if I do the same with a few asshole atheists and try to sgugest the YOU TOO, OBI ARE A MURDERER because i found a few atheist murderers out there....you will say I'm full of shit.

AS ALWAYS...using the logical contructs of a Liberal AGAINST a Liberal will bring....<waiting now for Obi and friend's inane, hate-filled attack against and accusations that I have no arguements, even thought I use the same broad-brush, generalized bullshit logic that the Libs use against Christians, etc.>

I'm bisexual, and I don't care if some crazy Pentecostal preacher calls me an abomination or a cancer on society or the root of AIDS. This happened in Sweden, two different preachers of fringe sects were charged with hate speech, found guilty in the lower courts but the charges were later dropped in the Supreme Court. I was actually glad that their freedom of speech and freedom of religion were upheld. The important thing for me is that they don't have any influence on the political process and that they don't resort to violence. Hate away by all means. There's a Nazi party in Sweden too that is completely legal, so why not?

I'd agree that political religion is a problem in the US. I don't actually know how much religion influences politics in the UK, could someone from over there comment? I know you still haven't managed to pass gay marriage, and you don't have a formal separation of church and state, but that's about it. But to focus on religion in Europe is completely wrong. It's not the issue, and religions are fading away anyway. Global capitalism is the problem, and it's not tied to religion in any way. Why focus on a serious problem of the past, that is really only superficial now, except in a few cases like Malta and Ireland? Look at the socio-economic conditions instead.

Right, and you try living as a human being without being able to experience or express feelings of love or physical affection. Garbage.

Ever notice that ANYTHING Putin disagrees with is now "HATE SPEECH"? What a jackass....because, by my reading, Putin is one of the MOST judgemental, hate-filled, vindictive punative assholes around here who thinks pretty much everyone who disagres with his demented ideology should be locked up and/or shot. Oh...wait...that's right....he's a Communist...the HOME of violence and thought control. silly me. Keep it up Putin....moron. BAD TROLL! GO TO YOUR ROOM!

Putin....you idiot...seems homosexuality wasn't well regarding in your beloved Communist Soviet Union....tsk tsk....hypocrite.

http://www.savanne.ch/tusovka/en/pilot/homosexuality-russia.html

I'd agree with you Vaft if these fundies were trying to force vaginal probes upon women, bomb clinics which are the main source of reproductive health care and cancer screenings for poor women, and want to block access to contraception. Christianity and capitalism go hand in hand in America. One is the sword, the other is the orb, so to speak.

"Right, and you try living as a human being without being able to experience or express feelings of love or physical affection. Garbage."

You're going off-path now, as usual. The argument isn't whether it should be legal to make somebody do so (it shouldn't). The argument is whether you should be able to say morally that they should (it should).

I should be legally free to insist that people have a moral obligation to fast 45 weeks of the year, if I want. It's not possible, but you certainly don't believe in free speech if you think it's OK to make it illegal; and likewise with the pastors in the case in question.

Except the USSR was the first country to legalize "homosexuality" (sic), in 1917.

@semck -- What makes you think morons like Putin agree with free speech? His guiding philosophy is only successful through the means of violence and thought control/speech control. come on....what are you thinking making these arguments with Putin. Wasting your brain cells...

I thought homosexuality in communist doctrine was a disease caused by capitalist oppression?

I'm not going off-path. You can't separate behavior from existence/identity on the question of who people are able to love. To claim that most Christians aren't condemning gay people, but "homosexuality" whatever that means, is absurd.

I don't believe in 'free speech' that is oppressive. I don't coddle bullies and don't believe bullies should be coddled. And I certainly don't care about the 'speech rights' of people who have no problem rounding my comrades up.