Jesus christ vamos, I opened this thread to make a santa joke too.

Me myself, and where I stand on The Abrahamics, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Atheism:

-Judaism: I WAS raised a Jew, so I have an obvious slant here, but I DO like Judasim MORE than Christianity or Islam; those two I have a far different opinion on, and I'll say why in a bit. What I like about Judaism are SOME of the morals that are taught in the stories; Moses and the Exodus is a good story for damn near ANYBODY. That message of stand up for what you believe in, in the face of danger, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT (remeber that when we get to Christianity) and to just keep going- THAT's a good moral lesson, THAT is worth something. The Ten Commandments I think are good as well- as guidelines. I do NOT think ANYTHING is absolute EVER (and I'm aware that that's a bit of a contradiction, but you know what I mean) and there are instances where I can think that breaking a Commandment is preferable to keeping it (again, I use the example of "What if you were Hitler's doctor?") I don't like the temples, the rigidity of the Orthodox tradition... that veers into what I DON'T like about the other two Abrahamics. Judaism is unique among the three because, as it's been under attack for so long, it's both kept it's shape (as opposed to the million branches of Christianity) and adapted (they have the same core values, but Reform Judaism allows a more interpretive and adaptive reading of the Old Testament and Judaism, and I prefer it strongly to Orthodox... I call myself a Reform Jew, as that's the closest to what I am, and that system is loose enough that the fact that is a system does not bother me... too much.)

-Christianity: And here we go... into the fire. What can I say about Christianity, though, really? We've talked of it so often... we've fleshed out our likes and dislikes... I've already said I like the idea of peace but loathe the ideas of both patience and submission (in fact, I honestly think that if not necessarily patience, SUBMISSION should be a SIN... it is a TERRIBLE thing from my perspective, and one that I just do not see anything right or good coming out of.) So I'll pose that question to you goys (and I meant "goy," not "guy," lol) out there- WHY? I don't, in Reform Judaism, see MUCH submission (the key exception being to God, but that's the case in any Abrahamic, and if you believe that there is an ultimate creator, even if it's not the Abrahamic one, it's not unreasonable, I think to submit a bit to him/her/it, the same way you submt just a tad to parents) but it's all OVER Christianity- submit to the Church, submit to God, submit to the Pope, submit to Jesus, submit to the Archbishop... OY! Where's my freedom? And WHY do you think that just because Jesus or a pontiff said that this is the answer, it is- and that's the end of it, no need to actually keep going or BUILD! Kierkegaard, who liked Christianity, HATED that- he liked the idea of the religion... but why just stop at Jesus? Why not be active, and keep going, instead of saying, "Jesus is our man, we'll just wait here and kill in his name if we have to whilst we wait." WHY??????

-Islam: Don't get me started... at least Christianity had peace going for it, and was original... oy indeed...

-Atheism: The WORST. That's right- worse in my mind than even submitting, because then at least you're TRYING to believe in SOMETHING. If you say there's nothing beyodn this, that life is all mundane and totally nihilistic (even Nietzsche said that at least WE could be gods and had eternal return, SOMETHING to believe in) you're just not trying in my book.

The End (for now, got to take out trash.) ;)

In the most basic terms the teachings of Christ are really a good way to live. If you ignore all of the rhetoric of the churches, philosophers, and scientists. Strip away the trappings, and you have the words of someone who had a big piece of the puzzle. There is one that is telling about this is for me. In more than twenty-five years of sharing conversations and discussions with people of all religious backgrounds and stances. Going to Neo-Pagan circles, sharing beers under the stars with atheists, sparring with Muslims, and meditating with Buddhists. In all of it, nobody ever puts up a serious objection to Christ's words. It always boils down to an objection about the behavior of some Christians, a questioning of the validity of some parts of Scripture that can generally be debated pretty well yet it's tiresome (most people forget that the Holy Bible ia a collection of books and poetry written for a variety of reasons for a variety of audiences), or a statement of faith that there is no God.

For me it boils down to pragmatism. There is a choice to be made. By every measuring stick I could find, Christ's teachings stand up as superb. If certain Christians do not follow then closely enough, it's regrettable. Certain Scriptures may seem implausible to some, but I've yet to see anyone make that case about anything consequential. Finally, it comes down to faith, and one choice is pretty much as good as another. So I'm back to the solid foundation of the teachings of Christ.

"Love thy neighbor as thyself" - There is a lot to that. It's not I'm okay you're okay. It's well I know that I can be a first class jerk like Bob was today, but I really don't want anything bad to happen to either of us. In fact, if he cuts himself, I'm to be upset and run for the bandaids. I'm to treat him like I would myself. It's not an easy thing to do, but it is the right thing to do.


"Love one another as I have loved you" - Now we're talking momumental tasks. I'm to Love everyone around me so much that I'd give my life for them willingly. If enough people truly followed that would any genocide ever get started?

Submission comes out of Love obiwan.

awe shit here we go again! yada yada yada morals... secularism is best. religion consumes the human ego while failing to subvert the unconscience. when will you people realize this. obi, you obviously don't understand atheism very well do you? you generalize it just as much as i do with christianity and its "morals." morals don't come from a "higher power" ( i am not a big bang theorist either by the way so don't ask) they come from necessity and common sense. might as well help people out, why not. i personally like buddhist teachings, not necessarily a crazed theistic religion either which is nice. Christianity is far to BIG BROTHERISH to me

Submission is what separates true Christians from the mainstream liberal Christians that advocate a do-it-your-own-way theology. The teachings of Christ are worthy of our submission because they are what give us true life. Think about it, Mother Theresa and countless of other nameless Christians who have done good in the world have been the most submissive. Mother Theresa was willing to humble herself so far as to wash the feet of the greatest social outcasts where she was. On the other hand, the Catholic crusaders, the Roman Catholic church of medieval and reformation times, and hypocritical Christians in general, are the ones who are trying to impose their morals on other, who are "standing up" for their beliefs to an unhealthy point. Submission to others is a virtue that is generally looked highly upon, and generally most Christians are criticized for their lack of submission.

nietzsche all the way for me by the way, love that guy so much

@SSReichsFuhrer:

Love? No offense, I know, "What' in a name?" and all... but somehow someone with the name SSReichsFuhrer telling me submission is love makes me laugh.

@Crazy Anglican:

But submission- WHY is that good? Because his teachings are good? I fail to see how submission is good- if his teachings ARE good, than shy submit and STOP? The Jews wrote a book, the Christians added onto that, and depending on your affiliation that's for better, worse, or indifferent, but still- they ADDED something. They did SOMETHING. Christ DID do something (not as much as I would've expected, but that's a whole different topic, the "If he IS the Son of God and Ressurected, why did he not help us and finish the job and remove evil?" argumnet, which garners the response "He died for our sins to repay them" or "We're not worthy" to which I STILL say- if he is the SON OF GOD, THE GUY, THE MESSIAH- WHY??? Are you honestly telling me he CAN'T do more than just repay our sins, that that was it, he did that, which is admittedly a hell of a lot more than just about anyone else but still comes short of finishing it once and for all, and that's all? And it's the latter, we're not worthy- well, MAKE us worthy, YOU'RE GOD! And if it's THEN the argument taken "Well, he wants us to learn" then that seems pretty cold for who's supposed to be a loving messiah- learn to be worthy of men, until then suffer through wars and famines and disease and genocide...???)

So why do Christians STOP THERE?

He did his work, he was great- BUILD on that!

I mean, when there's a great artist or philosopher, their work is admired, but people build off that... and we're all better (most of the time) for it! Shakespeare built his plays off older stories! My beloved Nietzsche built off ideas of the times and even others at times (there's a bit of Plato and SPinoza in there.)

Can you imagine if we all just STOPPED in art? What if we said after the Aneid, the great capper to Greco-Roman Mythology, "Well, that's about it, that's the story... we don't need anymore." No Shakespeare, no... all those great uathors and stories we'd miss!

So we just stop at Jesus... what if there could have been others? Jesus had nice ideas- what if in 756 or whatever there was a friar who had a philosophy that would've worked so well we'd be in a utopia right now, listening to him-

But he never was treated as a prophet and never bothered to share... because Jesus was the end-all.

WHY??? Submission isn't love- it's denying future promise and hope... it's killing the plant before the seed is even sprouted.

@ otto

How does the superego fit into your postition about religion in general?

@ obiwan

To a great extent I agree with you. At the moment I'm leaving a church that I helped found for this very reason. As you've said submission to God is one thing and submission to man is another. As we believe that Jesus was the Son of God then submission to him is also submission to God (Holy Trinity).

Personally if a man tells me "this is God's Will", I stop listening as he really means "This is my will and I really don't have a good reason for it". So I'm a poor example of submitting to the authority of man in this instance. I would point to the rise of Europe under Christendom though. It hardly looks like the work of complacency and self-sufficiency. It was terribly violent, no doubt, but I find the objection to submission to be odd on those grounds.

they r an instrument of capitalism

@obiwan, you can say all of that, only replace 'God' with Allah, and 'Jesus' with 'Mohammad' and you more-or-less have Islam in a nutshell.

@obiwan - stop relating all Christianity to Catholocism. Please, I submit to no man when it comes to matters of faith. I'm not Catholic and the Pope is a jackass. Is submit to Christ, the risen son of God, one with God and with the Spirit. So in that manner, I'm no different than you are as a Jew. Additionally, my submission to God comes in one form, a simple law. Love thy neighbor as thyself. I'm not bound to the hundreds of laws that the Jewish faith is bound to. So I submit that you are in submission to a far more rigic set of rules and laws than I am.

haha I agree with ottovanbis. I can't stand religion sometimes; although it does instill some pros and cons in people, i think overall you should learn how to build on your thoughts about things and not let religious teachings skew your individual mind before it's even made up. I mean c'mon, god's will? are you sure he wills so? or maybe he'll post something now and enlighten us all.

@Crazy Anglican:

But even if he's part of the Holt Trinity... so? I mean, even God must've seen he could do better, he made man and the world (I'm just working off the Biblical story, what I believe... we started somehow someway for some reason, and I personally don't think any explanation we have yet is either true or adequate, as I don't think we're equipped to know, that we need to evolve as beings and grow by NOT stopping ans saying This is it" but by keep going... in short, to understand how whatever creator created us did so and why, we need to approach that plane... which of course we are so far from now it's laughable- but we CAN improve, man is born, I think with so much granduer and potential, if not just animalistic potential... in any case, he is NOT wretched and sinning) and then he brought about the Flood and did it again, to a large extent, because Version 1 was too wretched and only Noah and Co. were good enough to keep building off of.

MOSES built; he had his ideas, killed a man, then realized what he had to do to grow and be a better man (I think he's the closest we can come to marrying the Bible and Nieetzsche's Ubermensch... Moses approaches that a bit, is at least Kierkegaard's Knight of Faith.)

So if THEY didn't just stop and say "Well, this is it- the answer" why should we? Why submit to something, even as great as the Holy Trninty, if there's the possibility of something BETTER? What if that idea can be improved upon... sounds crazy, but then again 2,000 years ago a group of Jews thought some troublemaker named Jesus was crazy for trying to build a better Kingdom, literally and spiritually...

@Draugnar:

I do NOT see Jesus as analogous to God ENTIRELY.

You DO submit to a man- Jesus. You do submit to his ideas. You DON'T build on them and grow if you accpet "Well, Jesus is it."

Why not think that perhaps you can do BETTER? Blasphemy? Jesus thought HE could do better than those before him... and in some aspects, he did.

@ obiwan (again)

Perhaps you could expand on why exactly you think that Christians "Stop There". As with any religion the word of the Deity is sacrosanct, but from St. Thomas Aquinas to St. Thomas More and beyond there have been many people to expand on the techings of Christ. Utopia, itself, was the work of a Christian writer who chose death rather than submitting to man.

I'm not saying go raise the dead or walk on water for me- But don't just accpet his ideas (assuming that you agree with him) but BUILD ON THEM.

ACTIVELY.

Do something besides read the Bible/Bible study/church/say "I know the Bible/practice the Bible.

In fact- it's been 2,000 years since tnhe last book in the series... if you Christians think that the Bible is GOING to be the answer...

I think it's high-time for another Testament.

I'll start:

Obiwan:

I

1. After a lot of caffeine, Nietzsche, and too much free time to ponder all the greatest questions, Obiwan had an idea to reshape man.

2. He'd been tiered after shopping for Xmas gifts.

3. Even though he was Jewish, and Channukah was ended, he did so, because he was a good friend, and because his friends were mostly Christian.

4. When lo, Jesus in Heaven said, "Why is everyone giving presents to everyone BUT ME on my birthday?"

5. And God agreed, saying, "Commercialism is just ruining this time of year... on the other hand, this special with Charlie Brown is good."


You can finish ;)

Merry Christmas. Now submit to my rule over your earthly and galactic kingdoms.
--CJTK

Oo this again =)
I don't uphold the church a lot of churches are just ways to make money. There's a non denominational church down the street from me... It has a private school a buisness center a gym a concert hall a chapel a student center now tell me that isn't a buisness? Now as far as church it self
church is a great sense of communtiy and is a good way to learn morals but if I could only take all the ritual and Supernautral all seeing all powerful GOD out in two swift blows it would be perfect. Do not fear god that is the worst. And christmas is great for the family and kids and what's wrong with santa being a part of religon it's not much more crazy than supernatural pregnencies!

@Captain Kirk, YOU once said "What does God need with a starship?"

I ask you: What does Kirk need with Earth- don't you have enough Orions and skirt-wearing female officers?

And sin't anyone going to start work on this new Testament to the Bible I'm calling for? Expand "The Book of Obiwan" beyond those original 5 verses!

Let's call this Testament... The Fresh Testament, then you can have Old, New, and Fresh...

nicely put man ^^

i meant denis

Are you suggesting that bringing new books into the canon is the only measure of further thought? Christians are continuosly writing on the very same topics. "How the Grinch Stole Christmas", and "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" leap to mind. they are not part of our canon, but are stories that have applicable Christian morals for our time. Are they scripture? No, and I'm not seriously stating that they should be. I'm merely stating that as life evolves, Christians have applied their morals to differing situations the same as everyone else.

Sorry @ obiwan (again)

@denis. Wisdom begins with fear of the Lord. With God all things are possible. He made man why can he not make Jesus Christ from a virgin mother?

@Crazy Anglican:

No, that's not quite what I mean- just writing books doesn't help, anyone, as you stated, can write books.

I'm saying that if in the first 2,000 years or so we had two Testaments come out, and THEY are both different and had the values of their time (Old Testament is how the world began, correspondingly its also about the birth and growth of the initial morals of man, and culminates with the Jews and Moses and all that- the first Pinnacle, you might say, the first real step foward as beings, we've gone from nothing just messing about and being smited for being terrible to finally having a good hero in Moses and what might be considered, then, as the first prototype for what man should be, the Jew in Moses' image, so to speak; New Testament is a response to IT'S time, so it's anti-Roman, anti-imperial, anti-all that... we go from Moses and the Jew and the first morals to Jesus, the Christian prototype, and the additional and strengthened ideals of patience, submission, love, peace... all that.)

It's been 2,000 years- we have grown since then, haven't we?

I say we have.

We've grown from Moses, we've grown from Jesus.

You actually brought up a point I LIKED- Aquinas. I don't agree with his ideas (obviously) but I DO love what he TRIED to do in furthering the idea... growing it.

You might go so far as to say we go Moses, Jesus, Aquinas and the Medevial monks/knights as a prototype of man for THAT time...

You see where I'm going with this. Man did NOT stop growing 2,000 years ago- so why should his canon of faith and his ability to have faith in the beyond stop there?

Lmao at SSReichsFuhrer. I can never take anything you say seriously. Especially to a Jew about submission? Lol...... whew.


Ok anyway. Christians tend to be intolerant. This bothers me. Muslims have the same problem. Jews are nice except when you get them talking about Israel, and atheists are the most dogmatic and pigheaded of them all. We CANNOT know ANY of the shit you all espouse for sure. PERIOD!! So..... what makes you right again? Oh, your evidence, or your God, or whatever? Prove that shit! Atheists love to talk about their proof, but there is no proof of anything.

Thus: agnostic. If there is a God I hope he is kind and I hope I have not offended him. I hope he understands why I question he existence, namely, that I question the existence of all things save myself. I live my life as a humanists. Following my moral instincts if you want to call it that, or my God-given morals or whatever they are. I just know what I think is right, so I try to do right by my fellow man and live decently.

As Vonnegut has said, "I am a humanist, which means, in part, that I have tried to behave decently without expectations of rewards or punishments after I am dead."

I don't really like the labels humanist or agnostic though, there are a lot of assholes who are humanist agnostics.

I go through life trying to be as kind and virtuous as I can, doing the most good as I can and harming the least I know how. I don't think anything else can be expected of us.




And how I reached that view:

Raised Southern Baptist.. still technically a member of that group (i.e. I have not told my parents about my true beliefs). I have been really rubbed the wrong way by their ignorant conservatism and intolerance of those around them. Their flagrant pro-Americanism and their blind faith disturb me consistently. Many among them are truly kind, and not even stupid, but there is a system in place which normalizes things that I believe are contrary to their natures. Such as condemning the behavior of homosexuals, or justifying killings of abortion doctors, capital punishment, so on. Being generally skeptical and even mocking well-meaning groups like the UN or the ACLU. They simply have lost the power of empathy outside those with whom they are prepared to empathize.

So much of Jesus' original words are lost on them, or twisted, in part by their politics. They are so pro-business and capitalism that they are in turn against things that harm those interests, even if it involves helping the weak (welfare), the sick (healthcare), or those in jail (death penalty). They need a whopping dose of human rights. Except that they scoff at human rights. So yes despite their redeeming qualities.... I feel I could do much better. They do charity work. They are kind to you no matter what. (Most of them), and they really believe in what they say, which is important.

Atheists are assholes, or at least the ones who think belief in God is stupid are. They need a healthy dose of doubt in their sacred evidence. They need to wake up and really all they have is what *seems* the be evidence. Which is all very nice from day to day, but shouldn't warrant them screaming "we're right you're wrong you idiot God-lovers!" Bullshit. Practice what you preach and stay the fuck out of it.

Muslims. Generally the same as Christians, just in different ways. They have the same problems with intolerance and disrespect of people's rights... so yeah.

And so on. What bothers me most is the exceptionalism all of the above and more display. They think they are right, and will not admit they could be wrong. I understand that this gives them some peace of mind, but for.... Pete's... sake, have the courage to admit that you don't know half of what you say you do.

Don't get ME wrong though... if I had it my way, God would exist. Jesus' God. Not Paul's God. Not Abraham's God. A truly benevolent and caring God, who shepherds us and is pained by our struggles, which he may sometimes allow in order to preserve our free will. Like. That would be nice.

But the "you should worship me" thing? That strikes me as amazingly selfish. Now, if he really were all that wonderful, you'd think I really wouldn't want to anything but worship him, now wouldn't you? So how is that I really just have never been into that? Worship strikes me as a waste of time. And I mean that in a practical way.... you're not getting anything done. It goes nowhere. And I'm calling shenanigans if God is really so immature that he gets offended by that. He is supposed to be God. I think he would be able to handle it if his own creation didn't want to worship him. Wouldn't that be no one's fault but his own. He CREATED everything didn't he?