the USA? :P

What type of History class is this?

when the USA abolishes its secret prisons where torture takes place without using it against its own people then that will be a good example.

class? what do you mean?

Like I take online American Civil War History class and a General History Class (Which has nothing to do with "History" Just government and citizenship)

The question is, do I really want Sicarius in my house?

hey man we can have an outdoor barbeque. I cook best over an open fire anyway

this isnt for any type of school, I really disagree with the idea of school (or at least what its become)

so... anyone???

Looks like no one can answer your question. Sorry, my field of expertise is Modern European History 1500-1945.

This might help
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_site

The problem with this question is that the concepts of 'secret prisons' and 'eventually turned against their own people' are pretty loose. What time frame are we looking at? And what constitutes turning against? The Roman Empire maintained prisons which by modern sensibilities might have to be kept secret, but at the time were perfectly acceptable in the open. Did they turn against their own people? They eventually fell but not due to the sort of behavior that was involved in their criminal-justice system.

The problem is that the sentiments that would require such prisons be kept secret from a people are too modern for there to be an example by which it could be shown that no such turning ever took place.

Are you supposing that there is strong support on this forum for the use of secret prison system with torture?

nothing I didnt already know.
I can tell you names of some of those blacksites too. the one in ethiopia near djibouti is called never never land
the one in romania is called no-mans land
the one is NE afganistan is called the salt pit
et cetera.

they're missing some too.



this site is brimming with intelligent well read historically inclined people.
no one at all can answer???

definitions

"secret" as in there is no public, and sometimes real governmental oversight
and also locations of some or most are unknown, prisoner lists are incomplete or secret, procedures and policies of the prisons are unknown
lists of employees are secret or incomplete, etc.

time frame??
idk, eventually. 20 years?

by agains their own people I mean citizens of the countries operating the prisons illegally held in the secret prisons

Here's a question: Is there a secret prison system that was revealed and THEN turned on its own people?

the problem Sicarius is.... if they did exist - and they WERE secret... then we wouldn't know about them would we?

the only ones we DO know about are from countries that lost wars or were overturned through revolution (chile, argantina, third reich, iran etc).

the one example I can think of will only cause some heartburn ... but Israel. it has not yet turned it on its own people.

um. come on guys.

confino?
public knowledge.
the gulag?
publiuc knowledge.
hitelers peoples court and subsequent camps?
public knowledge.

public

hitler

I don't really get your point. Could you try to express a complete thought?

the thing is sic...we all go along with torture and secret service shit cause it keeps the possible nasties under some sort of control and as long as we ....family and close society ....are untouched ....its a small price to pay for some security....on top of this.... we don't really know whats going on....and we suspect those who tell us otherwise....its that gap between our reality and our ideals....how much incongruence does it take to move us/ society to stop this....who knows....am I too cynical and bruised?

The thing is they can't just put me in one of those secret prisons, they're outside of the normal legal procedures. I agree we shouldn't have them on principle, but our methods of housing terrorists can hardly be compared to gulags and concentration camps.

sorry Invic....they can.....all they need is "reasonable suspicion"....it may vary from country to country but their onto it

So, are we talking about prisons or camps that are ostensibly created to hold foreigners or outsiders? And the 'turning on its own citizens' would be if the focus of those camps shifted to citizens? Some i can think of (where the govt didn't turn on its citizens) would be America's interment of Japanese citizens in WW2 (although they were actually americans). The Swiss also currently have a very suspect immigration policy where asylum seekers are held almost indefinitely. I think it could count. If the definition of foreigners is shifted to Jews, Gypsies, communists, and other undesirables, then Nazi Germany would also be a shining example. The problem is that there aren't too many cases in history where a country needs to incarcerate foreigners. Most secret prisons are designed for citizens -implying that the gov't has already turned on (at least certain elements of) its citizenry.

There are thousands of examples of governments that had secret prison systems that didn't turn it on their own people. However, by the very nature of your question, I cannot give examples, as they were all secret.

"Some i can think of (where the govt didn't turn on its citizens) would be America's interment of Japanese citizens in WW2 (although they were actually americans)."

This is one of the more ridiculous things I've read recently. You cite this as an example of a government not using it on its own citizens by using it on its own citizens???

invictus
I encourage you to read the military commisions act of 2006
they actually can.
they can just point at you and say you're an enemy combatant and hold you forever with no trial or even charges.
and since its a status offense they dont need to prove you did anything or were planning to do anything

ok. by secret I do not mean withheld from public knowledge.
let me redefine.

someone name a country that has established a prison system outside the rule of law where torture akes place, that didnt eventually turn the abuse on its own citizens

The U.S. hasn't done that latter part yet, so I will name the U.S. as the country you want.

I'm not saying the U.S. won't, mind. I'm just being a smart-aleck with regard to your question. :-)

Invictus, I suggest you reread the act. It doesn't apply to US citizens on US soil. The ONLY way a US citizen could be put in is if they travelled to a forbidden foreign country and weren't part of a government agency sent there to do a job.

I am by no means whatsoever an expert on this act but it seems to me that the provisions of it apply to aliens to the USA only. Is this not the case?