Oh are we doing sportsball threads now?

We usually do...and they nearly always involve a team I'm rooting for losing. :p

Ew.

Gotta admit, I was all over the Royals' feel-good story. I appreciate the kind of legendary pitching Bumgarner displayed but I can't say I'm happy about my bandwagon losing.

Great end to a great season. Madbum was phenomenal.

Also didn't he lose a game to the Nats on a throwing error?

Woooo, go Giants!

I asked at the end of the 2012 World Series how Miggy didn't see a fastball coming after 5 or 6 straight sliders from Sergio Romo, and this year I ask how Salvador Perez didn't catch on to the whole high fastball thing by the seventh pitch. Seven of the same pitch and you still keep swinging ineffectively at it - how? I understand that in both instances there were plenty of other factors to consider, but these are two that I'm not going to forget about.

Why does Charlie Brown keep trying to kick the football Lucy is holding?

Blegh, repeats are the worst.

Madbum was pretty amazing this postseason, but he's far from the best pitcher in baseball. Top 15, maybe.

Nah, and he still has to compete for best on the Giants with Matt Cain if he were healthy.

@bo, how can you criticize one guy for not expecting a different pitch after seeing the same pitch multiple times and in the same breath criticize another for not expecting the same pitch he had just seen several times in a row? Miggy's a lot better at hitting than pretty much everyone. Perez is a lot better at hitting than a lot of people, and he's been playing hurt. Bumgarner and Romo are both better at pitching than anyone you've ever faced.

"Top 15, maybe."

Right, right, Kershaw is the best. Except for whatever reason in the post-season, when he decides to completely suck. Ditto Shields. Ditto Wainwright. Ditto Lester. And all the other aces who are supposedly better than Madbum.

"Nah, and he still has to compete for best on the Giants with Matt Cain if he were healthy."

Are we still in 2012 here?

You're both nuts.

It's like the postseason is a short stretch of games and pitchers often have short stretches of being really good or really bad.

Anyway, how about Kluber or Price or the King or Scherzer or Sale or Quintana or Iwakuma or Richards or Strasburg or Cueto or Samardzija or Keuchel or Hughes or Grienke or Hamels? (Just to name a few.)

@ghug ... after seeing two or three (or four or five or six) high fastballs, Perez should have picked up on it and started taking the pitch and waiting for something else. He can't hit that pitch, clearly, nor can anyone else in the game. Miggy picked up on the slider that Romo was throwing him and took the pitch or fouled it off if it was close, and then Romo/Posey adjusted with the fastball. That was a great move on their end. I just wonder why Salvador Perez never adjusted and at least gave himself a shot.

Yeah, I'm going to mostly retract the Perez part after seeing this:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B1KkfTwCcAEWMiR.png

I still think it's hard to criticize a major leaguer for getting outplayed in one at bat though.

Bumgarner may not be the best pitcher in baseball, but he's the best pitcher to allow one run in 21 innings of a World Series.

I don't even know what the heck you're basing this on, because it sure isn't stats.

I'm a huge Samardzija fan, probably my favorite player in the league, and his numbers aren't better than Madbums. Neither are Prices. Neither are Strasburgs (who I also really like).

"Right, right, Kershaw is the best. Except for whatever reason in the post-season, when he decides to completely suck. Ditto Shields. Ditto Wainwright. Ditto Lester. And all the other aces who are supposedly better than Madbum."

For once we agree.

Kershaw is Clayton Manning--great in the regular season, melts in the postseason--for now. For all I know, next year he might win another Cy Young and go Don Larsen in the World Series with a perfect game while Bumgarner goes 8-22. You just don't know, that's the beauty of baseball, and sports in general.

But for now, he beats Kershaw on playoff success (that IS what it's all about)...
He beats James Shields ("Big Game James?" That nickname's goes back to Worthy!)
He beats Wainright and Lester, who was fine for the A's in the Wild Card, and last year, but didn't do the ungodly thing Madbum just did...

Say there's a game in a week.
Your life depends on it.
Honestly...

Who do you want pitching that game for you if you had to pick RIGHT NOW? ;)

The same way I'll always take Montana, Brady, and Elway as the Top 3 QBs over Peyton Manning in those rankings, because the former three were/are ALL incredibly clutch when it counted most (4-0 for Montana in the Super Bowl, both with and without those great 49er receivers and running backs, Brady for 3 SB wins and 5 times getting them there, and Elway for winning back to back Super Bowls to end his career, and getting to 3 more before that when, really, his Broncos teams had NO BUSINESS even being in the Super Bowl, he took them there) I'll take Madison Bumgarner now over Kershaw, Wainright, any anyone else.

And if the Giants, Bumgarner, and even the Royals are the postseason's biggest winners (just getting to the playoffs was a miracle for the Royals, but beating the A's in that late-inning game, and then sweeping the team with the best record in baseball, the Angels, and then the Orioles to boot, before being one hit from winning it all? BIG RAISES for everyone on that team, still one of the most miraculous runs I've ever seen by a team, they just had the bad luck of running up against an even HOTTER team) then make no mistake:

Kershaw and his Dodgers are the postseason's biggest losers. Bar none.

The A's melted away after the Cespedes trade, but the trade was for Lester, and he DID pitch well...they just lost a great game is all...

The Angels had the best record and then got swept, but they ran into that same hotter-than-hot Royals team, which but for a stray hit would be a Team of Destiny tonight, and anyway, the Angels are stocked and young, they'll be back...

But the DODGERS.
With the biggest payroll in MLB.
Bigger than the Yankees, the Red Sox, the Giants, the Cards, ANYONE.
With the best pitcher in MLB through the regular season heading their staff.
With a packed lineup filled with stars from top to bottom.
With all the talk about how this would be the year, all the expectations...

And they lose to they same team they lost to last postseason, and a round earlier...
They do so while their ace still can't win when it matters most...
And their bitter centuries-old rivals just won the World Series as a Wild Card...
While *their* big ace just had one of the all-time best postseasons for a pitcher ever.

It's tough to be a Mets fan, but boy oh boy OH BOY...

It has to HURT if you bleed Dodger Blue right now! (So, hooray for that!) >:D

Who the hell cares if you're good all reg. season if you're consistently terrible in the post-season. Enjoy that regular season trophy.

Yeah, the pitch he popped up wasn't a bad pitch and might have been called given that the strike zone naturally would have slid upward. Then again, maybe a major league ump can hold his zone still. I don't know. None of the ones I was around could, that's for sure, but that was probably too close to take in that scenario.

I'm just critical of his approach. You have all the pressure in the world on you to come through (literally), and I completely get that, but you've still got to think while in the box. The only pitches he took were at his head, very literally so - 5 feet off the ground, as that graphic says, is probably at his head because he has a lowish stance in the box. Had he just looked for something that actually started in the zone, even if it didn't stay in the zone, he could have actually done something with it, just like he did when he walked off down the line against the A's, but he just kept on going for high stuff and he didn't even make them have to think of pitching him low where he can reach out and make contact.

That's all in the past now. Hell of a series, hell of a postseason, full of classics in my opinion. Bumgarner is in the top 15 range, but he's not at all above Kershaw, no matter how much of a rival of yours he is.

Putin, a full career of postseasons might be as long as one regular season. It's a small, flukey sample and it in no way outweighs a larger body of work. Madbum's good, and there's a case to be made that he has the durability advantage over a lot of those guys given how many innings he's pitched, but that doesn't make him better than the guys I listed. He's on par with some of them and demonstrably worse than others.

And yes, I am basing it on stats. Just because some people insist on weighting tiny samples over larger ones and constricting themselves to wins and ERA doesn't mean I will too.

Madison Bumgarner, in the playoffs, from baseball-reference.com, over 10 series:

13 games, 7-3 record with a 2.27 ERA, a 4.87 K/BB ratio, a 0.912 WHIP...

And in the World Series?

The ALL-TIME LEADER in ERA, 0.29, with a perfect 4-0 record in 4 games, and a 0.548 WHIP.

To compare?

Tied with Hall of Famer Herb Pennock, Jack Coombs, Lefty Gomez and Monte Pearson for best win percentage among pitchers with 4 or more starts...

His 0.548 WHIP is tops all-time, followed by:
2. Jim Lonborg .667
3. Monte Pearson .729
4. Jon Lester .762
5. Tim Lincecum .800
6. Rube Foster .810
7. Mike Stanton .814
8. Hippo Vaughn .815
9. Sandy Koufax .825
10. Christy Mathewson .836

Beats his own teammate and multiple Cy Young winner Tim Lincecum, beats contemporary Jon Lester and, yes, beats Sandy Effing Koufax and Christy Effing Mathewson.

Who he beats with that 0.29 World Series ERA? Just as impressive, if not more so:

2. Jack Billingham .36
3. Jon Lester .43
4. Harry Brecheen 0.83
5. Claude Osteen 0.86
6. Babe Ruth 0.87
7. Sherry Smith 0.89
8. Sandy Koufax 0.95
9. Christy Mathewson 0.97
10. Mariano Rivera 0.99

Beats Lester again, beats Claude Osteen of those great Dodger pitching staffs of the 1960s, and then 4 current or future Hall of Famers: Ruth, Koufax, Mathewson, and Rivera.

The dude is KILLER in the postseason, and MAGICAL in the World Series.

And THAT is what makes you a great pitcher and, if he keeps this up long enough, a Hall of Fame candidate someday.

Kershaw is looking at far, far more than a Hall of Fame candidate......

The postseason isn't a fluke, ghug--it's a test...in fact, it's THE test.

And football's one thing--at least Marino can argue his defense let him down...

Clayton Kershaw?

Tremendous pitcher, BUT...who gave up the HR that ended the Dodgers' chances?

And who got his butt kicked earlier in the postseason?

And who lost to the Cardinals AGAIN the year before that?

Meanwhile, Bumgarner is lights-out and clutch in the postseason...and even in a game that drools over numbers as much as baseball, I guarantee, no number is as sexy as 0.29, Bumgarner's ERA in the World Series, unless it's 4 and 0, his win/loss total.

"Good" stats + Incredible Postseason records?

If he keeps it up, he could be another Curt Schilling...who SHOULD be in the Hall of Fame, and I think will get in eventually.

Postseason wins trump all.

What else is Kershaw looking at, bo_sox?

Being the greatest ever?
Produce in the postseason first.
Being the next Koufax?
Produce in the postseason the way Sandy did (after missing a WS game for Yom Kippur, no less.)
Being the pitcher of his generation?

Produce. In. The. Postseason.

He can have a great career and be a Hall of Famer...but to be "more," he NEEDS playoff wins at this point, and how.

Obi, how about the vast majority of his statistics? Not nearly as impressive.

There are three active pitchers who probably make the HoF barring complete collapses moving forward, and those are Kershaw, Felix, and Verlander. Bumgarner is younger than all of them, but he's also done much less than any of them had at his age. He's a good pitcher in his prime, and he's had a truly historic run that will be and should be remembered for a long time, but that does not make him the best pitcher in baseball.