The biggest protectors of gay men and sexual predators has been the Catholic church so to say the church are anti-gay or anti-paedophile is just not true.
What other profession could you be protected, even promoted, when your employer knows you're a child molester. I think the Pope doth protest too much.

First off, he's 85. Cut the guy some slack.

Secondly, as NigelFarage has pointed out, he didn't really say what obiwanobiwan and this article claims he said. "Full development of the human person" in context doesn't mean that he thinks gays are half-formed mutants, but rather dovetails into the Church's teachings on the sacrament of marriage and the Pope's argument in his remarks that marriage is beneficial to society. If obiwanobiwan would apply a quarter of the reading comprehension he makes himself out to have with his Shakespeare essays on here he could see that.

Disagree with the Pope if you want. If you really, really feel strongly about gay marriage then there's plenty to disagree on. Pretty much everything, actually. But don't put words in his mouth.


And once again, obiwanobiwan has found something to fill his daily quota for outrage.

"If obiwanobiwan would apply a quarter of the reading comprehension he makes himself out to have with his Shakespeare essays on here he could see that."
-Yum

"And once again, obiwanobiwan has found something to fill his daily quota for outrage. "
-Yumyum

As Nigel and Invictus point out, it is very wrong to assume that Benedict is implying that homosexuals are less than fully developed human beings. Catholic doctrine holds that marriage is a sacrament, a holy ordinance which is established by God himself. In the sacrament of marriage, a man and woman come together as one flesh and partake of the two goods of marriage: the procreative good and the unitive good. The procreative good is obviously the conception of a new child via natural sexual intercourse, while the unitive good is a more complicated Catholic understanding in which the two partners mimic the unity of the Trinity as three-in-one by becoming two-in-one.

Going back to the idea of human development, because marriage is a sacrament on the Catholic view, it is a vital part of ones 's spiritual formation. The procreative and unitive goods of sexual intercourse contribute to one's relationship with God. In this sense, homosexuality is necessarily the opposite of this sort of spiritual formation, because it involves sexual activity in which the procreative good is impossible and the unitive good is perverted. In this sense, then, those who engage in homosexual activity are engaging in spiritual dysfunction rather than spiritual formation. And this is something like what the Pope means when he talks about "human development."

What's this? The Pope is anti-gay???

You'll be telling me he's Catholic next!

"First off, he's 85. Cut the guy some slack."

Should we have cut Kim Jong-Il, Pol Pot and Stalin "some slack" as he got up there in years?

""Full development of the human person" in context doesn't mean that he thinks gays are half-formed mutants, but rather dovetails into the Church's teachings on the sacrament of marriage and the Pope's argument in his remarks that marriage is beneficial to society."

It's still a nasty slight at a whole group of people just for what they are.

"And once again, obiwanobiwan has found something to fill his daily quota for outrage."

THIS I don't get...I haven't posted in a while...

It's not as if I've posted every day...

And why must every post I make about something even remotely negative be derided?

What the church say and what they do are two separate things, religion used to be opium for the people, now it's social networking. Might be a tough message for the traditionalists to accept but things have moved on, the church has lost its grip on the people so spend way too much time telling us how bad we are, I find that the Catholic church and the Pope have no moral authority to preach to anyone, would Jesus cover up child abuse if he were alive today?

"And why must every post I make about something even remotely negative be derided? "

Because it's always about something silly, overblown, and symbolic, and almost never about actual outrages (which are plentiful to be found).

I believe in an imperfect truth, something worth striving for; a God. Mister the Pope, Ratzinger believes in a perfect truth, something worth striving for; a God.

I hope we can strive together for a common good; where we both believe humans are fallible.

If God is perfect then perhaps reason is on of those features which it gave use in 'Gods image' - reason and rationaility as tools to divine truth.

I am happy to pursue any good, (perfect or imperfect) using this tool, to create a literal 'heaven on earth' or utopian paradise... Though in our flawed state i believe no perfect world will ever be created - i believe it is worth striving for!

A utopian paradise is a lovely idea but will there be room in there for gay people; child abusers e.g. Catholic Priests, what can we do with these people, can they come to?
The problem with a better world is so many people find reasons to hate, the church spend more time defining differences between people than they do uniting them. The panacea you describe is not shared by our religious leaders unfortunately

First of all, his name is Ratzinget. Second, like people have said, he didn't actually say that. How about we discuss atheists who call Christians delusional, when they are the ones with no proof?

And the church hasn't covered up the abuse scandal. If you know anything about the Church Hierarchy, you would know that the Holy Office (CDF) and the UCCB have the responsibility to deal with the Priests and Bishop. The pope doesn't get involved in that.

Actually his name is Ratzinger...

"And the church hasn't covered up the abuse scandal. If you know anything about the Church Hierarchy, you would know that the Holy Office (CDF) and the UCCB have the responsibility to deal with the Priests and Bishop. The pope doesn't get involved in that."
And this one goes for the 2012 Webdip Nonsense award.

'A utopian paradise is a lovely idea but will there be
room in there for gay people; child abusers e.g.
Catholic Priests, what can we do with these people,
can they come to?'

The devil is in the details...

By which i mean, how to answer specific questions is not something which i consider a fixed solution. As our undersanding increases; as our abilities surpass those of every previous generation, we can hope that better solutions can be found.

@OP, to be fair, the scientific explanation for why there is a sexuality and gender spectrum is based on development. We all start as females. I agree with Nigel et al that say you took the comment out of context, but even if you didn't, there is a /reasonable/ misunderstanding of science to provoke such a position/ comment.

promotes =/= a requirement for.

Milk promotes the development of strong bones. Milk is not the only way to get strong bones and is there fore not a requirement.

The traditional family structure (arguably) promote full development as a human being. There are others ways to become fully developed human beings.

This is a stupid argument on obi's part and he has proven once again to be a total fucking liberal moron who twists words almost as bad as SillyPutty.

Oh, and that statement could just as easily be used to say the Pope promotes abortion in case of unwed pregnancies or unwanted babies of all sorts cause, after all, orphans and children of unwed moms don't have traditional family structures, therefore we must kill them.

Stupid fucking misinterpretation of a fucking moron.

By Biblical definition, all humans are deficient, all humans are sinners, all humans fall short of the Glory of God, phrase it how you will...that's why we have the whole "savior" thing, because humans aren't good enough to make it on their own. Listen to the *full* context of church teachings instead of cherry-picking stuff for your feigned indignation and you would understand this basic truth of (catholic) religion - that humans are fucked up and need a diety to save them from themselves.

Move along...nothing to see here.

Of course it was Obi posting this...why bother respond...the God of Misinterpretation himself....

Does Italy win often?

"Should we have cut Kim Jong-Il, Pol Pot and Stalin "some slack" as he got up there in years?"

Are you out of your mind? The Pope said something that pissed you off because you can't read. That's nothing at all like genocide. I'm really dumbfounded that you would write something like that.


Good to see no one's taking you seriously, though.

Invictus, i'm shocked at you, i was taking hime seriously, i was just disagreeing in fundamentalist terms.

I think his position is damaging to the collaborative effort to improve the world; it focuses on attacking a major stake holder, it will never be possible to wipe out religion; nor would it be desirable to restrict thought in this fashion (diversity is strength).

Yeah, I cocked up his name...that's egg on my face...

"Are you out of your mind? The Pope said something that pissed you off because you can't read. That's nothing at all like genocide. I'm really dumbfounded that you would write something like that."

How about his quote that condoms, if anything, are "increasing the problem" with regards to Africa?

How about his cover ups in the Molestation Scandal?

And this...

And so on...

GIVE. ME. A. BREAK.

You're telling me the man's worth :slack " just because he's not AS bad as those genocidal monsters?

You get slack right up until the Stalin-level?

(If that's the case...where's MY slack, sir, hm?)

^And the fact that your reading comprehension sucks so bad isn't?

I said to cut him slack because he's 85 years old, not because of anything like what you're saying. I wonder if your reading comprehension really is this bad, or whether when you come across something that challenges your own pre-conceived views you simply fall into thought terminating cliches. Either way, this thread is you at your worst and I hope as many people see it as possible.

"I said to cut him slack because he's 85 years old, not because of anything like what you're saying."

Pol Pot was up there...are you saying you'd give him some slack at 85, too?

I don't CARE about age--

If I screw up as a 20-something in life, I get nailed for it...

He should get nailed at 85 with 60+ more years experience...unless he has Alzheimer's or dementia or a case like that (in which case what is the Vatican doing letting him make statements AT ALL, and I'm not aware of any such condition had by him) he's STILL responsible for what he says.

I guess you don't have grandparents.

OBi - if he says "kill the fags and queers" then you stop cutting him slack, but to espouse traditional family values as the head of a major religious organization? Geez, there are a lot worse things you (and our own resident Putin) have said on this very forum.

I'm not saying take him out and rake him over the coals, Draug...

I'm just saying hold him responsible for what he says.

AT BEST he let slip a questionable statement, maybe he meant it in a bad way, maybe not...

But the fact is:

I get nailed for questionable statements...
Putin gets nailed for questionable statements...
YOU get nailed for them...
Everyone on the site...
Movie stars...
Sports stars...
Politicians...

EVERYONE does--why does the Pope get a complete and total free pass from ANY scrutiny over a poor choice of words or questionable statement (and that's again if we take your evaluation of it, because frankly, given the man's track record, I wouldn't be surprised if that was what he meant, he's a disgusting man in my view, there HAVE been better Popes--for as much as I don't like religion, there have been better ones.)

Only in your weird little mind does the Pope get anything like a free pass on what he says. You're totally un-tethered from reality here.

You ought to cut His Holiness some slack, obi-dork. He prays regularly for God to remove the hardness from your heart, so that you may be converted to Catholicism.

Not a free pass for saying something wrong... More like a pass from your abuse for not understanding simple English. There was absolutely nothing wrong with what he said. Promoting the traditional family structure as means to help others achieve fulfillment in their lives is a good thing. And despite your insane interpretation, nothing in his statement attacked gays or single.moms or anyone else.

I could say "driving an electric car will help you reduce your carbon footprint." Nothing in that statement says driving something lile my Jeep prevents someone from reducing it. You just refuse to accept that your interpretation was colored by a predisposition to see the negative and that is your problem, not the Pope's. He is far from innocent, but attack him for real.offenses

...for real offenses not for your inability to put aside your own anti-religious biases.

I believe freedom is also a value that permits the full development of the human person. Does that mean I believe slaves are untermenschen? Naughty me :(

Most people, including Catholics, ignore the Pope, moron...he doesn't get a free pass. You are an idiot, Obi.

Why are people focusing on the human development quote and ignoring the "gay marriage is a threat to humanity" nonsense?

Because this thread, by Obi, was specifically about the development quote. As I said before, there is plenty to hound him about, but just not this quote.

No, actually it wasn't. Obi said nothing specifically about the development quote to begin with. The very first line of the article was about how gay marriage threatens society *as well as* the developed human beings thing.

"Only in your weird little mind does the Pope get anything like a free pass on what he says. You're totally un-tethered from reality here."

YOU and others are the ones here asking ti "cut the man some slack" and you say he doesn't get a free pass...even in the slightest degree?

I'm sorry, he would NOT be able to say even a something as questionable as that and retain any popular respectability if he didn't pop around in the hat and Pope-Mobile...it's a special sort of religious immunity or lenience that is far too often granted without reason or cause, and too often simply for the reason of avoiding treading on toes--

Well, I heartily tread on toes when I think they're in need of a good stomping, and you're welcome to reciprocate and put your foot down with me, as it were (and you ARE...and you'll notice neither I nor anyone on my side--however sparse that number may be--ask for any sort of special clemency for what I say based on my age, religion, or lack thereof.

You speak out on anything, you have to be ready to take it from folks who seek to call you on your misteps, ESPECIALLY if one supposedly so perfect and holy as one such as the Pope purports to be.)

"He prays regularly for God to remove the hardness from your heart, so that you may be converted to Catholicism."

If Exodus' warped logic and God's trist with Pharaoh are any indication, maple...

God's precisely to BLAME for hardening my heart! ;)

"Most people, including Catholics, ignore the Pope, moron."

Funny, he seems to get quite an audience for his addresses there at the Vatican...which he and his cronies are somehow able to afford the upkeep of such un-Christ-like opulence and gluttonous wealth...

Seems like enough people are paying attention and literally buying into the Papacy and Vatican to me.......

And in another rare show of solidarity--

Thanks you in regards to those last two comments, Putin.

(And my oh my...after that update of commenting, the three top threads are all of my creation...

What an n-Holy Trinity to begin this Sunday!) ;)

*Un-holy