Isn't that metagaming.....? That's supposed to be frowned upon here, isn't it?

Just because something is frowned upon doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Sure it's frowned upon to have a bias against a player just b/c of points, but how could you even enforce any rule against it? It's so subjective.

Well it does kind of make sense, i mean it seems like the hirarchy on this site is the more points the better, so beginers want to take down those who have the most points, especially if they are in the same game (which shouldn't happen anyway)

Well, you could tell them that they're acting like idiots....

I am definately NOT cndoning metagaming, I was just throwing out another perspective

I am loathe to sympathise with someone who complains that it's lonely at the top. You've got the points, and now it's tougher to get more. Seems totally fair, as long as the players aren't breaking the rules.

I agree, but I should point out that if you have a disproportunate number of points, you shouldn't play in a small pot game that beginers will be joining.

That is when it would happen most anyway.

Play in higher stakes games....

That makes a lot of sense, now that I think about it. Why ould a high-point-total layer even be playing with a bunch of low point people?

how is that metagaming?

It involves one game and no real life friends. Its just strategy. Get rid of the one that is probably the best at winning.

suck it up, and either lose respectively or win.

yes, and on Onar's point, anybody want to shine light on that?

To be fair, its not so much that that person is made the prime target so much as its reasonable to assume that if someone does have a great deal of points that they know what they're doing, are good at winning, and are thus a threat to be taken a bit more seriously than maybe the other players.

You deal with it.

I would be more likely to ally with a high value player because they are so much more reliable. It works both ways.

But as for the complaining about him playing at the lower levels. There are very few high enough pot games to only play with experienced players.

Convince them that you're a great ally and then demonstrate it by trouncing the other 5 players with them at your side.

That was my pitch dangermouse- one player responded positively, but then decided to jump on the band-wagon and attack me later.

I think it's stupid- why should we be forced to stay out of games, even though we have been playing for much longer on this site than half the useless n00bs that play a few games then quit.

I can see where they are coming from (in part), but on the other hand it's the only diplomatic thinking they have- because they risk unbalancing the game against themselves. Not to mention that they are going to be remembered for poor skill and unlikely to be co-operated with again.

In fact, that's how I learned a lot of the nuances of online diplomacy and got these points- working with more experienced players. As far as averages go- 100 entry bet is quite a stake (far above the average here).

I'm just disgusted.

And in responce to Onar

"Why [w]ould a high-point-total [p]layer even be playing with a bunch of low point people?"

- I created the game, with a significant entry pot (100). They knew they were going to play me from the moment the game began.

@Churchill

You're looking at it the wrong way. It does not matter whether this is fair or not - as everyone else who is an outlier in terms of ranking will get the same treatment. What makes the difference is how successfully you deal with it.

If you don't want to get 'special' treatment play only with players at/above your points/rank.

And it should have been 101 points at least. 100 points is no better than 5 when it comes to filtering newbies.

Hmmm- that's a point Ivo. I guess I have to give up playing with newcomers. You think it will be that much different at 101?

They are either stupid or evil, and I think both. You should filter out the evil mastermind and spank him.

Yep. Used to be for me. Now my head is much more prized...
it's all Ghost's fault :)

Just tell them look at all my points that means im really good; join me and we can do a draw :)

and of course kill them once there use fullness has run its course

Yeah- not a huge believer in draws... although somehow I have a few on my profile.

101 pts to join still lets a new account buy a CD Germany or CD Italy if the game starts with 5 or 6 players - which is even worse that having one from the start. It takes either 108 or 109 (I forget which) to ensure no new accounts can enter the game during 1901.

I can shed some light on the situation from another player’s perspective… I am in the game that I think Churchill is referring to. Currently, I am Austria, and Churchill is Russia.



@Churchill
First I would like to thank you for creating the game. I am not entirely please with the attack that is being performed on you, but as a transfer from Facebook, I was unable to play in WTA games until I crested 100 pts. [I know there is a large debate on ppsc/wta, but I am a player that STRONGLY favors WTA… and I loathe the meta-gaming situations that I’ve found myself in with facebook ppsc games… I am not going to debate that issue… but I would like to note, that as a newcomer, Churchill you generously created the game (that I was unable to create on my own), and I am thankful]

I also want to thank you for acknowledging me as the 1 player that responded positively (I’m assuming it was me)…

I sent you a letter earlier… I guess you might not have seen it yet, I don’t think it will compromise my playing situation, and it may be appropriate to post here so here it is:
## “Churchill,
##
## I am sorry that this game is turning like this so
## quickly on you… my guess is that when Turkey
## accidently declared you a target to me on the
## global, that Germany and England assumed that you
## would be easy pickings in the north.
##
## And it may be unfair, but when they see that you
## have over 100 times as many points as they, then
## that just compounds the effect…
##
## If you manage to stay alive, and you find yourself
## in a position where we can work together, I would
## welcome that opportunity… (I really was
## considering working with you… but the northerners
## made it so obvious that they were going to attack
## you, I decided that I could not afford you spending
## all of your time defending the north, while
## leaving me to fight in the south)
##
## I know, that you know, that it is not personal…
## but I don’t think that 1902 is going to go so well
## for you… my guess is that it will go worse than
## 1901… and that is rather bad… and the worse part,
## is that I will be the one driving he knife home… So
## I do apologize ahead of time… and I welcome the
## chance to be proven wrong… I can tell you are good…
## so if you put me in a position where I HAVE to work
## with you… I probably won’t like it at first… but
## I’m sure I’ll get over it… and I probably will be
## rather impressed as well.
##
## Best of luck to you this year
##
## -Ox”


A quick note: I think that that one global reference was the only mention of your point total that I saw. But in a game, a player is allowed to use every angle that he can… and I think that referencing someone’s record/points is more than fair game… and reasonable… I did strongly strongly consider working with you… but in the end I decided against it… but not due to your points… if anything, your point were what was helping me consider joining you…

So, I guess I may be contradicting myself… by stating that I think it’s okay to reference player “B’s” point total to win player “A’s” support… and also saying I dislike how the players (myself included) are working against you, BECAUSE of your point total…
I think what I really dislike is how EFFECTIVLY it is working… I imagine that sort of reference would Tip the scales… not fill them… but it is what it is… I’m playing through it, though that may be easier for me to say considering I’m not getting ganged up on…

If I had any advice, it would be NOT to stop making low point WTA games for people seeking them… but to privatize them, and to accept those who show interest on the fourms first. I know that another WTA lover [Babak] actually requested the game; however, the game was filled up in less than2 hours or so after you posted the link (and Babak was too late to join, because of other RL preoccupations). I imagine that if the game were filled with those that responded on the fourms, that we would be seeing a much different style of game…

I don't think it's metagaming to attacked the perceived strongest player. As it's not preconceived before the game starts (as you don't know who you will be playing with).

Or it's certainly no worse than deciding that you will always attack Russia if you draw Turkey, prior to the game starting.

Or deciding to turn on the strongest player after 1902.

It's a valid persuasive tactic in my view which can be used for or against.

I think this happens to everyone as their points total increases.... my win ratio has certainly gone done consdierable since I first started the hobby, partially down to to this reason. C'est la Vie!

I'm the guy who initiated the ganging-up-on-Churchill movement in the game that Churchill is referring to, so maybe I can explain myself.

@Churchill
First off, let me say that when I made the suggestion to take you out first on the Global chat, that was an accident. I meant to just send that message to Austria. I realize that my mistake is probably responsible for England and Germany cooperating against you, and that was not my intention. I'm sorry about that.

I am new to this site, but have played Diplomacy for a couple years now. I saw that Churchill was the most experienced player in the game, probably the best player. As such, and a neighbor of mine (I'm playing as Turkey), I decided he was the biggest threat to me. One doesn't get as many points as he has without beating less skilled players such as myself, and I wanted to preempt that possibility.

Churchill attempted to use his high point total to impress me and convince me to ally with him, which was a good idea and totally legit. However, if it is ok to use a high point total to your advantage, I believe that it is equally ok to use someone's high point total as a reason to attack them early.