@Gen Lee I completely agree that there is time for harsh press. However, I genuinely ask any of you if you think the time for that press begins after a one-SC stab that is immediately stalemated in the midst of a reformed juggernaut. I'm telling you for a fact that it forever tainted the relationship between France and Germany in this game. Germany's tactics at the end of the game may have merit (though I don't buy it), but an impotent stab followed by multiple mutings and insane demands to not inspire any sort of trust in repaired alliance, especially when this happens with 7 countries left.

I'm assuming you mean me murray why don't you have the balls to say it dickhead

> one who is pretending his genuinely detestable personality was a strategy rather than a tragic truth,

Why does Austria have only nice things to say about me? Why does England have no complaint? Because I didn't use negative strategies with them.

Funny that erist complains about someone making the game unpleasant. I found erist to be the most unpleasant person in this game. Here's our press, beginning with immediately after Spring 1904 when he saw I had moved against him.

http://tny.cz/2fcdfa6a

Every time I attacked, he became verbally belligerent.

"9 Jun 2013 (To: You, from Russia) - Autumn, 1904: LOL. I'll give you about 12 hours to discuss with your TA how poor your moves were (because no TA worth his/her salt would /ever/ advise you to move to the east while both F/E are still Very Much Alive in the west) or I'll go ahead and see if you can't be a Germany eliminated second. Which in case you don't know much about diplomacy, which in your case appears so, is a pretty piss poor showing for such a forgiving starting country"

"14 Jun 2013 (To: You, from Russia) - Spring, 1905: Foolish, foolish Germany...I can't wait to see how long it takes for the professors to start begging France to join in against you as you try to open up a war with Russia while the east is still wide open."

"Sun 21 Jul (To: You, from Russia) - Autumn, 1907: Seriously, screw you"

Considering my responses, who is unpleasant?


He claims I refused to talk at all when I was fighting him. Bull. I talked to him whenever he wasn't belligerent and/or when I wanted something from him. And he has no reason to complain; there were phases when he sent no press.

@jacobcfries: you can defend your student's moves all you want, that's your choice and I respect it, but I disagree with the way you see this game and the game dynamics there was in there. A 5 way draw can be a legitimate ending based on a game's specifics and I think this one couldn't have gone further because of what has been said in here so far, but purely tactically speaking, I disagree. But that's alright, I guess that's what makes the beauty of this game: the difference in opinions. ;)

You're not the one I was talking about, Jasbrum. We didn't end up on the same page in the game, sure, but I never thought you were intentionally rude (I'll ignore you calling me a sickness as a miscommunication). I'd really like to read an EoG from you...I think your perspective would be very interesting. I think erist would be interested in that as well.

Ha! "Dickhead" auto-corrects to "sickness"...nice.

Man, this is going off the rails. Sorry to see that it's being taken so personally.

"Its nice to say its only for fun, but I think that is bullshit. Winning is fun! :)" - no, winning is only fun is your opponent puts up a fight;

if all you want to do is win, then please, play my multi's version of diplomacy: http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~orathaic/multiswebdip/

@slyster Agreed. Diplomacy isn't science because the all too fickle human element. Frustrating, but what keeps it fresh. Maybe you and I will just have to play ourselves a match sometime. ;)

Tangentially related:

The snippets of erist's diplomacy that gavrilop posted made me chuckle, because I recognize the sneering, condescending tone. When our relationship went south in a recent game (that was as frustrating and crappy as this one apparently was), I received many a similar message.

Of course from his perspective I was the worst asshole in the world, and whatever words he chooses to describe my tone won't be complimentary either... Oh, it's a thrilling tale of drama and betrayal, let me assure you. I'd tell it now, but he owns all the rights.

When are you going to post your Dojo of War EoG, erist? It's your baby, you should start it off.

Hahaha! ;)

That would indeed be interesting, but unfortunately I'm taking a long awaited break over here and I plan on making it a long one. Although I'll give you a hulla when (and if) I come back.

I'll probably continue to volunteer to be part of TA SoW, but that's about it. Speaking of which, I'd be interested in seeing an advanced SoW happening where players would be ranked in the early 100s (and even top 100, who knows), and where TAs and profs would be top 20 or so. This would be interesting to get into all the advanced way of playing and what makes the big difference between a top 100 player and a top 20 player. I know this might be hard to pull, but I think it's worth mentioning.

@Hazel-Rah: Erist was my student in this SoW and from what I've seen from him, he does speak out loud what he thinks about other players with whom he's playing and we've had a small discussion regarding that, but he's never been straightforwardly negative with someone for reasons that made no sense to my eyes.

While I don't know how your game with him unfolded, I'll leave it at that, but I'd suggest you re-read your press you exchanged and moves you did on him that might have influenced his negative straightforwardness with you to understand his way of answering.

And back to the said messages Erist sent gavrilop, I actually thought the same (on a different scale) as Erist. True I would've handled things differently were I in his shoes (not saying it would've given better results), but the facts were there: there were reasons why Erist answered this way. The only advise I have him at this point was that, while judging Germany this way, I said he would be enter off not telling him these things because this is not real life, where I completely agree that you have to tell others when they're being rude to you, but this is a diplomacy game, where you need to, as much as you can, bond with others so you can setup plans with them once in the game.

His reaction was normal, I just thought telling him straightforwardly like this these things had cost him some "Diplomatic points" towards Germany.

Crappy iPhone...

Have should be read as "gave"

Enter as "better"

> there were reasons why Erist answered this way.

Sure, and he even explained: "My general objective was to sound like an angry and vindictive enough player that it seemed irrational for you to try to push further towards me."

What's funny is that erist, of all people, started complaining about someone else being unpleasant. I think he's just jealous that I wear it so well.

@slyster: Man, I would love for there to be an advanced SoW I could take part in. My GR has been slipping for the past 5 months and even though I enjoyed TA'ing this game and think I was up to it, I still feel like I can't solo for shit.

That said, I have a feeling that there would be a lot of demand from players like me somewhere in the top 100-200 GR and not enough supply for TAs and Profs in the top 20.

slyster, "negative straightforwardness," while an interesting turn of phrase, and a tool I myself reach for perhaps more quickly than I should as well, is an overly generous description for insulting press, which is a different animal entirely.

I know exactly what led to our falling-out in that game. I am not accusing erist of being a serial asshole, nor am I absolving myself of assholishness - the best of us all spout off once in a while.

My point, such that I had one at all, was that I was amused to see him lashing out at someone else, just as he had at me, because they weren't doing exactly what he wanted them to do or acting exactly how he thought they should act - but also to genuinely ask when he planned on starting a thread for our EoGs of the game in question.

@Hazel-Rah: English is my second language, negative straightforwardness had no real meaning but the one I tried to explain the best: I didn't know the exact word in English. But back to what you said. All I can say is: "fair enough" since this was between you guys and since I wasn't part of your exchanges, all I could say was what I saw from Erist.

@stackelberg: and that's why I think this would be a tough one to pull off. It is already hard to get 7 active TAs and 2 to 4 active profs in a game that limiting this to 20 players is close to impossible. I, for one, know that I would be interested if that game could be setup somewhen.

oh, i'm quite fine being an asshole in the game to someone being an asshole with me, though I have tried to tone it down quite a bit. I'm fine with the meta-gaming of being an asshole to encourage people to stab or not to stab as well. Chainsaw diplomacy has its place. But I don't think you'll find much complaint about my press style from, say Turkey, even after he stabbed me a bit. If someone is nice and straightforward with me, I try to return the same. I think the frame of "this is just a game" can allow for lots of good-natured and not-so-good-natured teasing.

In this game, I was mainly frustrated that people in the West didn't seem very interested in actually playing-to-learn. From the time I joined the game, England said he was more interested in Skyrim and didn't really care about the game, and by about 1904 Germany was saying he was bored and wanted to quit. I had much more a problem with that attitude than I do with someone shouting at me or telling me I am stupid, etc. My problem wasn't germany being an asshole, it was no one wanting to discuss strategies or plans etc.

I didn't have any real problems with the-new-England's /tone/ at the end of the game, for example, even though he was totally aggro. (though it annoyed me). I only had a problem with the strategy of being totally aggro while one does not even have an island to stand on.

I will say if other people think you are being enough of an asshole to be ruining the fun of the game, that you should probably take that in stride and try to be less of an asshole. Which I have done. And in game if people ask me to be less of an asshole, I try to be less of an asshole as well. But if they seem to enjoy trading insults and we are currently fighting, I'm happy to exchange insults. Hazel-Rah, you were a total dick in the Dojo game, so I was bitchy with you, yes, but start another thread for that :P

Oh I thought you meant me because you called me a loose cannon in the East lol, apologies then for over reacting AND jumping to conclusions

> oh, i'm quite fine being an asshole in the game to someone being an asshole with me

I wasn't being an asshole with you. I was just attacking you.

> If someone is nice and straightforward with me, I try to return the same.

Either you didn't try, or you're just incompetent at it.

> and by about 1904 Germany was saying he was bored and wanted to quit.

If "1904" is 1907 during the break when Atundal disappeared, and if "bored" isn't bored but rather:
"6 Jul 2013 (To: Global, from you) - Autumn, 1907: I've learned a lot from this already. I'd be ready to draw if England doesn't come back."

Why don't you stop lying about it, erist?

erist - Are you telling me to start the Dojo EoG thread? I don't have a problem with that, but I figured the honor should be yours as it was your brainchild. To me, the games are like Vegas - what happens there, stays there. Just because we clashed in-game doesn't mean I have any desire to stick it to you in the forum by usurping your right of first post or anything.

Which is not to say I'm above a little good natured shit talking, so:

I was a "total" dick? Damn, you smack a bitch around once and she forgets all the good times you once had together...

I'm tired of that bullshit, so here's all my press with Russia.

http://tny.cz/b8a21fdd

We discussed strategies and plans whenever I thought we were working together, and whenever I was planning to stab him. The only time I didn't talk about my plans was when he already knew I was fighting him *and* I wanted to keep fighting him. At those times, I didn't want to tell the truth (because I was fighting him), and I didn't want to lie (because I might need his help again later, so it would be best not to lie too much).

Nevertheless there was a *lot* of discussion. I was always polite with him. He says "in game if people ask me to be less of an asshole, I try to be less of an asshole as well" but that's bullshit too. I did ask him not to talk to me that way, and he calmed down once, but still every time I attacked him he started it up again.

I'll try to get my EoG together but my time is limited recently, as you can see I havn't been around much lately, I have a new girlfriend who is taking up most of my spare time, so I was probably eliminated from the game at the right time lol.

I enjoyed playing with everyone, I didn't see much of the aggro when Atundal was replaced as I was otherwise occupied, but I do remember saying to a few people that I thought Gav was aggressive and domineering in his communication with me, I wasn't pissed Gav, I thought that may be your "this game" persona and I was trying to rile some people up against you by way of diplomatic strategy for what it was worth, I actually thought you did well since you managed to attack most every one lol and remained in a strong position - apologies if I don't get to put EoG together and go away for a bit... I'd also like to say my TA and his temporary replacement were very good to me, thanks guys

I overheard that, and I tried to use more questions instead of suggestions with you. But there was still a bit of "don't make me come down there!" because I hoped to dissuade you from invading Austria, or better yet, get you to prop Austria up. Your survival was ancillary in my plans.

If you do write more, I'm interested in how seriously you considered attacking France in the beginning, if at all. I gave up asking, but I think that was a mistake I made.

One thing that should probably be noted is that at some point, although not exactly the point I moved in, Italy asked me to move into the Meditteranean with a few fleets, to fight Turkey. At that point the Meditteranean was sort of a wildcard, and I wanted to have it, or at least prevent Turkey from having it.

I was planning on keeping Italy in for a long while at least to defend against Turkey (admittedly, I did plan to take his homeland whenever he ceased to be useful, but his units against Turkey were more important to me). However, the moment I moved in, Italy wanted me to move out, back off etc... I didn't want to. I had just given up my advantage against England to get an advantage in the Meditteranean, on Italy's request (he asked help a turn or 2 earlier if I remember correctly, and I think he didn't want me to move so many fleets down there but he wanted me to move in so I did it on my terms, not because of Italy but because I didn't turn him into an enemy immediately.), so now I wasn't going to back off in the Meditteranean, which would get me back to where I started. It has to be hold in mind that Germany was helping England so the west was hard to do anything with as always.

Anyway, Italy started begging me to get out and such and I thought he wasn´t exactly loyal to me in the sense that I think he would have betrayed me whenever he would gain something for it, however temporary. That´s why I started taking Italy. That I took Tunis was at least accepted by Italy so that doesn´t count.

So the fact that I took Italy has little to do with me hating Italy or having a master plan that included taking Italy. It has to do with the fact that both Italy and Germany incidentally wanted me to go south at some point, and that Germany wanted to do nothing in the north.

At least that´s what I remember from it. I´m starting to forget it.

Bottom line: Italy didn't have to worry about me at the beginning. Other than that, he was obviously too busy with a Juggernaut so he didn't exactly have the possibility to attack me with any chance of reaching something.