i was baffled that folks (namely austria and to a lesser degree england, tho turkey played his bit role) were glad to let you catwalk to a solo.

For the record, as England, I wasn't "glad".

In fact Dj, if Madmarx is to be believed, you were actually the reason he got a solo after all.

Wow, this sounds juicy. Link to game?

this is why i wanted to see end of game statements - because i was really interested to hear what everyone's rationale for what they did as they did.

@centurian - if anything is clear from the game, it's that MadMarx is *not* to be believed ;)

game in question is ghost rating game three -
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=1016

Really? None of you are in it?

yea. i checked the link and nobody posting here is in the game.

I believe she meant http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=10165

Cheers.

lol oop. thanks dbj.

also i think i made a poor choice of words - certainly i doubt anyone but MM is glad about the solo. i was curious to know what other folks perspectives were, since i was quite surprised we couldn't organize to stop it. apologies to centaurian and the others, for that misstatement.

I actually spent a decent amount of time trying to *prevent* a solo, despite not moving on him. Unfortunately, I could not convince the smaller players to play ball, so that collapsed. Had I been able to convince France and England to make the moves I requested in Spring '08, we could have formed a stalemate line and forced the draw.

I don't think we can blame Italy for the solo, either, for what was she to do, sit around and wait for elimination? Her move at least gave her a 'Survived'.

Were I to play again, would I do things differently? Yes - for one thing, I would have made it abundantly clear that a move on England - like the one in Fall 07 - would cause me to move on him. I *should* have moved on him, but I felt I had little choice at that point but to hope he would keep his promise to draw.

Of course, that was idiotic of me, but that's what I was thinking.

Stratagos,
Not to pick on you... but since you typed it. Even if you couldn't convince the smaller players, shouldn't you have just done what was necessary and hope they would fall into line?

And Italy getting a survive in a WTA game? Is that really worth something?

i don't think the survive matters - at that point i felt like my effort to get others to work against G were a failure, especially since AH wasn't doing anything, and england and france were fighting instead of cooperating. so i was trying to force AH into action by allowing G to grow. after a couple turns of getting nowhere, i admit i gave up and felt frustrated, so i wanted the game over. as it turned out, that happened to be the turn that AH finally tried in earnest to attack G - but it was a bit too little too late in any case, i think.

The idea was that Stratagos needed me to make sure MadMarx didn't solo, both of them promising me inclusion in a 3 way draw. Since Ivo_Ivanov (France) had made it very clear that it was either him or me, I had no other option but to believe in the deal.

Admittedly Ivo was cooperative the first time, but not the second, although I knew I was going to get stabbed the first time. Its also worth noting that I had little faith in the deal, but in WTA a draw was the best I could hope for, especially considering my shape.

I would like to hear MadMarx's take on it. But I'm pretty sure he was ok with the draw (or so he assured me) but the combination of me leaving myself open, France not willing to cooperate, Italy giving up the last few centres willingly and Austria not putting the pressure on him, handed him the opportunity for the win. How much pressure on him would have been required to force the draw remains unknown.

That being said, I certainly made plenty of mistakes in this game and as such am not excited about it coming under scrutiny.

For instance, I was originally going to stab MadMarx in autumn 1902 by moving belgium to holland and north sea to denmark, thus letting france take belgium unhindered. But a combination of MM's sweettalk and Ivo's non-commitment persuaded me otherwise. If memory serves, Braveheart promptly predicted me getting destroyed by MadMarx.

I would have accepted a three-way draw, and fully expected that outcome, but was obviously leaving the door cracked open for something unexpected to happen, like Italy asking me if I'd like to walk into Rome out of the blue (she claims because she got frustrated with the Austrian not attacking me), and then Naples...

On a side note, how can a survive not matter in a WTA game? There aren't separate categories for survived PPSC games and survived WTA games, so if a person is interested in those stats, it seems like it would matter to them regardless of WTA...

PS - To shed a little more light on the situation (or maybe not!), perhaps the reason I expected to draw was because I was 100% committed to not take any of Austria's supply centers as long as he did not break our agreement and I was 100% committed to not kill the Englishman as long as he worked with me...

survive in WTA is different from survive in PPSC in that no points go to survivors, only to winners.

since england and austria were playing for a draw, what other leverage did a tiny power such as myself have? help germany get the in. stratagos and centurian, i wish you had helped to attack germany. instead, you got nothing. but, c'est la vie, c'est la mort.

*win

Ladies and genltemen, what is there to discuss. Poor play all around, expect for MM - who took full advantage of it.

We may have different interpretations of who did what and why - but the map does not lie - look at the history step-by-step and you'll see what happened :)

@ Centurian - I was not uncooperative - I told you you're playing like a moron which you were - then you got pissed and decided the best response is to prove me right. GER stabbed you three times and you still kept attacking me until the last turn.

@djbent - you also came to attack me at a certain point - maybe hoping that if you and ENG eliminate me you'll then be able to turn on GER later. Sorry for not dying so fast :)

In the mean-time AUS stabbed you and from then on it was up to ENG and AUS to turn around and ty to stop GER - which they didn't and instead kept pushing south.

The only one who actually kept his word dealing with me was MM - what was I supposed to do when for this whole game I was the only one to make any move against and try to stop GER from the solo and everyone else kept helping him and attacking me until it was too late :)

If ENG and AUS help GER take out RUS and refuse to attack him the whole game it is perfectly clear GER will win. Everything else is nonsense chit-chat an excuses...

well, you chose to leave out the point where you tried to attack me after you and i were working to stem the german tide. i attacked you relatively early in the game, before G and AH became powerhouses, so that's not really on the same level as you attacking me after that. and i could not very well attack germany from my position before both germany and austria stabbed me - in fact, according to austria, it was my mistrust of germany and concern with the idea of going for a triple draw with him that caused austria to stab me. of course, i think the real reason was austria thought he could pick up easy CDs and make for a solo or at least a two way draw himself. as soon as all that transpired i tried to work with you Ivo, and with england and turkey - but both you and turkey tried to stab me for no apparent gain - only T was successful and you weren't.

but it's true, there was poor play all around. so better to leave it be.

I tried to snatch TUN late in the game - that's true - but it changed nothing actually, did it? :)

lol yes true. but it was telling ;)

also i take it back, it was not poor playing all around. better to speak for myself and say i played poorly but also was surprised that we couldn't come together to deny MM the win. shows who really played well now doesn't it =)

it was great playing with all of yall, hope to see yall again soon. now time to bbq! =D

from what i can tell,
djbent and centurian played really dumb moves.

and MM totally deserves the win, think he played great...

Well whatever. You can't tell, because you weren't in the game. Hindsight is 20-20 for outside observers isn't it? Even other players don't know whats happening behind the scenes.

Forget the poor play. I think this sounds like it was a fantastic game. Not in the sense that people were generally satisfied or that it was played without mistakes, but in the sense that it got diplomatically exciting and a little emotionally charged. Diplomacy is one of the few games that prides itself on this ability, so I would say it sounds like it was a great game. =)

Oh yes, the emotionally charged part. I almost forgot:

U /\11 sUk!

(or something)