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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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Calric (175 D)
15 Apr 09 UTC
Joining an in-progress private game
I've created a private game, and due to poor timing on my part it started with Italy in civil disorder. I've got someone available to take it over - we're still in Spring 1901 - but when he clicks the link to the game he gets a message stating: "Could not join game: You haven't specified which country you want to take over."

The game doesn't appear to be in the list of joinable or in-progress games. Is there any way that he can take over Italy?
2 replies
Open
Lucky (1114 D)
15 Apr 09 UTC
Move question?
I'd like to support a fleet into Spain's SC with an army in Gascony but the only option I get is "support to Spain" not "support to Spain SC". Will this work the way I intend it to? Will the fleet land on Spain's SC?

Any help you can give is apperciated!
5 replies
Open
Tim (310 D)
15 Apr 09 UTC
Accidental join
Hello! How can I leave a game that I accidentally joined? It has not yet started.
7 replies
Open
louiskepler (100 D)
15 Apr 09 UTC
beginner
I made a game called abrx this is my first time so noobs only
1 reply
Open
ag7433 (927 D(S))
14 Apr 09 UTC
Reminder: Buy Flowers
New Game. PPSC. 120pts. 24 hrs
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=10097

5 replies
Open
tullman (579 D)
14 Apr 09 UTC
quitters
I'm relatively new to the site so I'm sure this has been hashed out before but the competition is awful. In every game there are 2 or 3 who give up before they are eliminated and usually one who never puts in a move. Now I understand we all have lives and if someone has issues and they gotta go that's no problem but just quitting or never putting in orders? Certainly not in the spirit of the game.
14 replies
Open
sean (3490 D(B))
15 Apr 09 UTC
thanks edi
if you want to get your friends involved in diplomacy a great intro video by edi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2ub5lqItoI
3 replies
Open
jbalcorn (429 D)
14 Apr 09 UTC
FAQ Questions
The FAQ could definitely be added to. As a new user, I've had some questions that were hard to find answers. What FAQ answers would you want to see?
23 replies
Open
ronsilver (260 D)
15 Apr 09 UTC
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=9947 / Multi
Could the admins pls check that russia / turkey are not one and the same player ?
They appear together online, play as one person and write public messages where they try to pretend that they are two
2 replies
Open
stratagos (3269 D(S))
14 Apr 09 UTC
*snort*
I'd just like to say I love how people's assumptions are somehow supposed to constrain *my* actions..
22 replies
Open
Ukla (390 D)
15 Apr 09 UTC
Minor Peeve
Could someone maybe fix that the edge of the in-game messaging system cuts off the last word or so once the scrolling takes effect?
15 replies
Open
El_Perro_Artero (707 D)
14 Apr 09 UTC
British Subconscious?
So, lately I've been finding myself replacing my -or's with -our's
I first noticed this when taking notes in my psychology class. I had repeatedly spelled "behaviour." I'm noticing the same thing with "colour"

What could be causing me to do such a thing?
57 replies
Open
jadayne (283 D)
15 Apr 09 UTC
Stand-offs interrupting offensive moves.
Two units attack a third unit with one unit supporting. Even though the attack fails, the unit which is attacked cannot perform an offensive move, yes?
Now, if two units attack a unit with 2 units supporting, is the attacked units offensive moves still prevented? Or do the 2 supporting units 'soak up' the attacks, allowing the target unit to perform its move?
8 replies
Open
Maniac (189 D(B))
07 Apr 09 UTC
Is the credit crunch good for socilism?
A serious Debate.
25 replies
Open
rratclif (0 DX)
12 Apr 09 UTC
Am I overreacting?
(see below)
12 replies
Open
lets not take this too seriously
k?
k.

http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=10102
0 replies
Open
Javabeans (252 D)
12 Apr 09 UTC
Question on Moves/Retreats. Thank you in advance!
Hey guys I have a question on retreats. Lets say I am a turkish unit in bulgaria moving towards serbia. Lets say there is an austrian unit in rumania who is going to get forced out next turn as well, and he would like to be forced out to serbia. Does the turkish unit or austrian unit get serbia? I guess this is a general question on if moves or retreats have higher precedence. Also a link where i can look up rules like this in the future would be appreciated as well.
6 replies
Open
BEATtheMeat (100 D)
14 Apr 09 UTC
Ending Meta-gaming
This is one idea on how to stop meta gaming.
22 replies
Open
GomJabbar (213 D)
14 Apr 09 UTC
User Manual for phpDiplomacy?
Is there a User Manual for phpDiplmacy? I am not talking about the rules for Diplomacy. I mean how the program works. What different colored lines mean on map? The phases, time limits, the checkmark after your name in a game, etc.
1 reply
Open
OMGNSO (415 D)
14 Apr 09 UTC
Cutting supports from the front.
I know a lone attack from the attacked province cannot cut a support, but if the attacking supporting unit is dislodged by and attack from the Province it is supporting into does this cut the support. Here is an example game. ( http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=9947) Nth support ENG into Lon and was dislodge by Lon. According to the computer this support was not enough for ENG to stay in London as it was bounced out by Wal.
5 replies
Open
thejoeman (100 D)
06 Apr 09 UTC
New variant idea
basically, we start out with a ww1 alliance style game, then after a few years, it becomes classic diplomacy.
69 replies
Open
stillwaterguitars (100 D)
14 Apr 09 UTC
Unpause Request
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=9236

It's been 11 days and we're just waiting for Germany to unpause so we can remove his last unit.
6 replies
Open
Sicarius (673 D)
13 Apr 09 UTC
sustainability cont.
tangent from another thread
Sicarius (673 D)
13 Apr 09 UTC
dingleberry jones:
as was previously mentioned, 75% of the population would have to die for you to get your sustainable living. Why are you in favor of mass murder?
sicarius:
you see the funny thing is, you seem to lack basic logic.
do you not know what carrying capacity is?

I'll explain it to you.
say you're on a tropical island. theres enough fruit and crabs and etc to support you and nine others.
any more than ten people, and the food gets eaten up faster than it can be replaced.
if the population drops below ten, there will be more food, so more people can live there sustainably.
living sustainably means you can live the way you are living without hurting the land, basically forever.
until we get hit by a meteor or the sun explodes or something.

so say the population rises, to say 20 people.
then theres 30 people, then 50, then 100, then 200.
they live real fat and happy for awhile (especially the 5 or so at the top calling the shots) and maybe not everyone has enough food, but they live. what they dont realize is that othe island can only indefinitely sustain 10 people.
the island can support 10 people forever, but it can support 200 for only say, 100 years.
they've taken too much, and the supply is not replenishing itself fast enough. soon everyone starts to get hungry and most of the people die.

where we are right now, as a global society, is living real fat and happy (especially the few at the top) thinking we can go on forever, well above the carrying capacity of earth. we are heading towards a crash.
sustainability is not a way of life, some hippie ideal, it is necessary for life!

the earth cannot support 12 or 9 or 6 billion people indefinitely.
it will not continue to do so for very long.

its like a 2nd grade science class, (which you must
have skipped?) when there arnt many bobcats, there are more rabbits. then because there are more rabbits, more bobcats come around, thus more rabbits get eaten, thus there are less rabbits.
because the population of bobcats has grown too large, they eat too many rabbits, thus there are not enough rabbits to sustain the remaining bobcats, thus the bobcats die.

BECAUSE THE POPULATION HAS GROWN TOO LARGE, THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH RESOURCES TO SUSTAIN THE POPULATION. THUS THE POPULATION DECLINES.

BECAUSE THE POPULATION HAS GROWN TOO LARGE, THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH RESOURCES TO SUSTAIN THE POPULATION. THUS THE POPULATION DECLINES.

BECAUSE THE POPULATION HAS GROWN TOO LARGE, THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH RESOURCES TO SUSTAIN THE POPULATION. THUS THE POPULATION DECLINES.

did you get that?

"75% of the population would have to die for you to get your sustainable living"
wrong. (its probably closer to 98% or something)
they are going to die eventually anyway, BECAUSE they are not sustainable.

THEY ARE GOING TO DIE EVENTUALLY BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT LIVING SUSTAINABLY.

I'm sorry if I come off as an asshole, I dont mean to be really, but why do you not understand this?
I'm not saying the kung! are the greatest civilization and they are just and right.
I'm saying there is no single right way to live, but there is a single wrong way to live. unsustainably. the kung! and native americans and amazonian tribes and welsh druids and mongolian shepards and up until about 10,000 years ago everybody, is way smarter than us, because they knew how to live.
sustainably.
You are trying to come off as an asshole, or you wouldn't include things like "its like a 2nd grade science class, (which you must
have skipped?) ", you wouldn't repeat things 3 times is capital letters and ask 'did you get that?' So don't pretend like you aren't trying to be an asshole.

And the thread you have created here is entirely different from the tangent the other thread was taking. My contribution to that tangent was "I don't know how you are so hypocritical that you can talk about 'sustainable living' in one sentence and then supporting people living in McMansions the next."

As to the rest of your diatribe, i will need to respond later, when I have more time to point out the fallacies of your assumptions.
Sicarius (673 D)
13 Apr 09 UTC
if you eat more food than you have, you will run out.


oh yeah you're right I see it now that is just full of holes.
kestasjk (95 DMod(P))
13 Apr 09 UTC
I don't like how sicarius puts his arguments forward, or agree with most of his beliefs, but the planet is probably too highly populated to be sustainable, and trying to scale back the population over time can be done without mass-murder.

This thread reminded me of this story which I read earlier today:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7996230.stm
Sicarius (673 D)
13 Apr 09 UTC
what is wrong with my arguments?
not being defensive or anything, but if you tell me I can improve them
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
13 Apr 09 UTC
Sicarius, 98% of the world has to die before we can live sustainably? What the heck? That leaves you with the combined populations of France and the UK populating the whole world?
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
13 Apr 09 UTC
Less than in 1066!
zuzak (100 D)
13 Apr 09 UTC
"BECAUSE THE POPULATION HAS GROWN TOO LARGE, THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH RESOURCES TO SUSTAIN THE POPULATION. THUS THE POPULATION DECLINES."

Wow. So what? What are you arguing? I'm pretty sure that no one disputes that when you have overpopulation, the population decreases. That's pretty much what overpopulation means. Sustainability is necessary for a population increase or remain stagnant.

Now, if you're talking about self-sufficiency, that's an entirely different subject. Self-sufficiency means that you can survive without outside interference, and is generally unnecessary, because it ignores the more efficient method of trading with others for resources. If everyone tries to be self-sufficient, then the world can sustain fewer people (because its less efficient), and is therefore more overpopulated than it was before. Also, cities are not self-sufficient, but they are sustainable by outlying farms.
kestasjk (95 DMod(P))
13 Apr 09 UTC
"what is wrong with my arguments?"
You need to be more concise and less argumentative.
Reading your writing it feels like we're enemies and you're taking the reader for an idiot. Reading chrispminis, say, or many other good writers writing it feels like they're putting a belief in its most concise, convincing form to appeal to the readers' intelligence

Try putting some time into making your posts as convincing as possible, and really try to look at your post from the point of view of the type of person you're trying to convince (and don't assume that person is an idiot, because they're not)
kestasjk (95 DMod(P))
13 Apr 09 UTC
(Also I think we could live with far more than 98% of the population still around, and technology could yet increase the sustainable population level even beyond the current level, but even using armchair math you can work out this can't go on forever)
warsprite (152 D)
13 Apr 09 UTC
Kestastjk do you not know? Sic thinks that technology is the root of all evil. So you would have to live using early Neolithic technology.
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
13 Apr 09 UTC
Humans could live in the comfort of the Western world sustainably with a population of about 2 billion, I believe is the estimate
Chrispminis (916 D)
13 Apr 09 UTC
Sic, you are by and large ignoring the massive effect of technology on increasing the carrying capacity of the Earth. I'm not saying sustainability is not important, but you're vastly exaggerating the issue. Thomas Malthus said the same thing about 200 years ago, albeit with more rigorous justification, but his prediction was proven wrong time and time again as technological improvements increased rapidly enough to validate the experienced population growth. Look toward GM foods to validate future population growth.

I have no problem with you saying that indefinite population growth is unsustainable because thats obviously true. I have a problem with you saying that specifically 6, or 9, or 12 billion people is not indefinitely sustainable, because you're not basing that fact upon anything. You're simply throwing out numbers that you believe are true... where's the evidence? How do we know it's not actually 4.5 billion or 60 billion? Are you just guessing?

Population control is an important issue and will probably play a part of future legislation. We can already see this in China's controversial One Child Policy. You're also ignoring the fact that birth rates in developed countries have decreased phenomenally, and there's a direct negative correlation between birth rates and GDP per capita.

You admire many of the peoples you listed because they maintained sustainable populations, but I can tell you that it's on no intelligence on their part. They simply had no choice because they lived in agriculturally barren areas and any population growth was promptly and brutally punished. (Not including the Native Americans, who most certainly did have agriculture and social hierarchy, and many aspects you find repulsive in modern civilization) It's not like they're not trying... apart from infanticide as a very morally questionable method of population control, those peoples habitually had high birth rates, despite their limited resources. This only translated to a relatively static population level because of equally high mortality rates, in large part due to habitual homicide.

I would say the best way to curb population growth is for currently undeveloped countries to develop because people seem to naturally institute their own population control via contraception and abortions as GDP per capita increases. I put great stock into innovation and have no doubt that many of the apparent problems will disappear as we innovate them away. By and large we're far better off now than any hunter gatherer tribe, and in a few decades I think we'll be able to deal with an Earthkilling meteor, and who knows, perhaps in several centuries or millennia we won't have to worry about an exploding Sun either.
Sicarius (673 D)
13 Apr 09 UTC
mmm thanks kestas. I'm certainly not a very talented orator as I"m sure you all know.


chris, while I was not just throwing out numbers, I left some out
the earth cannot continue to support 6 or 10 or whatever billion people, IF we continue at our current usage of resources.
I dont know what the sustainable level of people is, I doubt anyone does, but I think we can all agree that it is significantly lower than 6 and a half billion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Population_curve.svg

now alot of you are inclined to beleive that technology is the answer to this. I am inclined to disagree. I dont think that technology is the root of all evil, whoever said it above, but I do think that to live sustainably a lot of the technology that we do have would have to go.

some tribes had hierarchies, sure, but the vast majority of them did not. (native americans at least, outside of that I dont feel comfortable enough with my level of knoledge to make any assumptions) Yes they had chiefs, but obeying them was optional.
they were wise elders, to give advice not orders.
anyway I'm not advocating that we use native americans as a model for anything but their sustainability.
Sicarius (673 D)
13 Apr 09 UTC
I left some*THING* out
Chrispminis (916 D)
13 Apr 09 UTC
"if thats your definition of efficiency then this civilization is grossly inefficient. think of native american tribes, or the kung! bushmen.
they dont go hungry or homeless, until our culture fucks it up that is.
but look at our culture, millions die each day from not having food to eat, countless people have no roof over thier head. "

To import some argument from the other dying thread... You say millions die each day from starvation, but lets put some reality into play here. Approximately 36 million people die every year of starvation, an order of magnitude lower than what you're suggesting. Given a global population of approximately 6.77 billion people, that's 5.3 people per 1000 that die of starvation in modern times. Would you argue that a smaller ratio of !Kung people die of starvation? Oh, but starvation is really the lesser of the issues when it comes to arguing modern peoples vs. Neolithic peoples... the fact is that the mortality rate for modern peoples is enormously lower than that of Neolithic peoples. The crude rate of mortality for modern peoples is 8.23 per 1000 persons. In many hunter gatherer tribes, the mortality due to homicide/warfare alone trumps this, not to mention the mortality due to disease.

Starvation is an important problem in the modern world, but it is mostly an issue of food distribution and not production. As technology increases and makes transporting goods much cheaper, we will likely see decreases in world hunger as it becomes less costly to distribute food. According to the FAO, of the UN, the world produces enough food to support 12 billion people.
Xapi (194 D)
13 Apr 09 UTC
Chrisp has, in my opinion, proven that capitalism doesn't work.

BTW: Unpause the league game :P
Chrispminis (916 D)
13 Apr 09 UTC
Also, it's funny that you would call cities unsustainable, but then later say that you're ultimately talking about global sustainability. You're ignoring that city-states included the surrounding agricultural country side, and in modern times you can't even make that distinction due to the overwhelming levels of trade. It's complementary sustainability.

Also, I'd point out that in a different sense of the word sustainable, hunter gatherer societies are clearly not sustainable because they will always be conquered by more advanced agricultural civilizations if they are worth conquering, and history shows this clearly. For global hunter gathering to be sustainable, you have to somehow prevent the agricultural revolution from happening anywhere and everywhere, and this is quite difficult because population pressures make this almost inevitable in areas where agriculture offers a higher carrying capacity than hunter gathering.

I wouldn't even use modern hunter gathering societies as a prime example of hunter gathering at work, because these societies are definitely more idealized. They exist only in places where hunter gathering is far more efficient than agriculture. Obviously these societies will seem pretty great because if they weren't they'd have switched to the modern way of life. They are by no means necessarily representative of the average hunter gatherer, especially in places which do not share the same advantages as the geographical placement of modern hunter gatherers.
Chrispminis (916 D)
13 Apr 09 UTC
"I dont know what the sustainable level of people is, I doubt anyone does, but I think we can all agree that it is significantly lower than 6 and a half billion"

See the FAO claim that currently, we globally produce enough to support and adequately nourish 12 billion people. This is from an organization that by and large treats malnutrition and starvation as the number one problem in the modern world.

"some tribes had hierarchies, sure, but the vast majority of them did not. (native americans at least, outside of that I dont feel comfortable enough with my level of knoledge to make any assumptions) Yes they had chiefs, but obeying them was optional.
they were wise elders, to give advice not orders.
anyway I'm not advocating that we use native americans as a model for anything but their sustainability. "

This is by and large a useless tangent, but I will tell you that you are for the most part incorrect. This one of the many misconceptions of Native American civilizations, which was more advanced than most people would believe, and were far from the peaceful and frugal peoples that they're often made out to be.

"Chrisp has, in my opinion, proven that capitalism doesn't work."
Really? I don't recall doing that... if so, please point it out, because apparently I have logical inconsistencies in my beliefs, because I'm a capitalist.
Sicarius (673 D)
13 Apr 09 UTC
we globally produce enough to support and adequately nourish 12 billion people.

production has nothing to do with sustainability.
there were 82.5 million barrles of oil produced a day (average) in 07, but thats doesnt mean we'll be producing at least 82.5 million barrels a day forever.



as to your assertion of native americans, can i get some links please?
I actually don't have much to add after Chrispini has been so active. Anything I had to say would have been based on Guns Germs and Steel.

"I dont know what the sustainable level of people is, I doubt anyone does, but I think we can all agree that it is significantly lower than 6 and a half billion"

So, I don't think we can all agree to that.

And has Chrispmini's has said so eloquently, the hunter-gatherer tribes that remain aren't there because they are smarter, but because hunter-gathering in those areas are more efficient than farming.

"BECAUSE THE POPULATION HAS GROWN TOO LARGE, THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH RESOURCES TO SUSTAIN THE POPULATION. THUS THE POPULATION DECLINES."

I would agree to that statement if you changed the first word from 'beacuse' to 'when'. I don't know that we are at that point yet.

"its like a 2nd grade science class, (which you must
have skipped?) " As Kestas said, 'don't assume the person is an idiot'. But thanks for making your point of view look more ridiculous because you don't argue well.

And I know, 'you don't give a shit' blah blah blah. But you do, or you wouldn't post here. If you want to try to convince people of anything, don't be a dick about it.

Hmm, yeah, thats the way to win an argument. As Kestas pointed out,
Chrispminis (916 D)
14 Apr 09 UTC
Sicarius, I think you've forgotten how food is made. Farming... and crops are quite renewable, and not at all comparable to oil. The real limiting factor in farming is arable land, and we haven't hit that limit. In addition, increasing technology is constantly and predictably increasing our yield per area of arable land. Current food production levels are sustainable. That obviously doesn't mean they'll always be sustainable, but I have faith that the birth rate will level off as the mortality rate does, and increasing technological advancement will keep us abreast. As it is, we can definitely support more than 6 and a half billion in terms of food production, just not in terms of everyone having a car...

As to links to Native Americans... I already said it was irrelevant, but I'm sure if you do any research you'll quickly find what I say to be true. I'll post a few wiki articles, but you can definitely go into more depth with a simple google search or by looking up the wiki citations.

Agriculture:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas#Agriculture

Examples of complex and stratified societies:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroquois#Pre-contact_period
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippian_Culture

Pre-Columbian Warfare:
http://www.uapress.arizona.edu/BOOKS/bid1872.htm

I haven't included the massively complex and agricultural Mesoamerican civilizations, or the more well documented Post-Columbian intertribal warfare. I don't really want to debate this though, because it's ultimately irrelevant.


22 replies
po8crg (969 D)
14 Apr 09 UTC
Unpause please
Can you unpause http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=7947 - Austria has one centre, and is the only power that has not voted to unpause. Player appears to have quit phpdip.
0 replies
Open
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
12 Apr 09 UTC
Smart Phones and phpDiplomacy
I'm looking into smart phones and although it isn't a major factor, I would like to know how they handle with this site. Can people with smart phones tell me your experiences?
23 replies
Open
Richard III (373 D)
13 Apr 09 UTC
Longest game?
I'm playing Austria in "Robert's Fish and Chips," a heartbreaker - I almost won but played stupid in what was supposed to be the 'endgame' years back. Now it's Fall 1916, with at least another year of play likely. Easily my longest game, FTF or online. What was yours?
14 replies
Open
dangermouse (5551 D)
09 Apr 09 UTC
GFDT Update
Llama's website is still broken. Where are we with that last game? Can someone link to it?
23 replies
Open
xgongiveit2ya55 (789 D)
08 Apr 09 UTC
3500 - WTA
500pt buy in, 30-48 hour phases. I'd like to line up 7 players before I start the game; any takers?
40 replies
Open
rratclif (0 DX)
14 Apr 09 UTC
Calling: WhiteSammy
(see below)
1 reply
Open
Ukla (390 D)
12 Apr 09 UTC
New Cheap Fast Game
PPSC, 8 Points, 12 Hour Phases
Game Name : Fastest Snail on the Block
phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=10039
4 replies
Open
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