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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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Jakegranola (121 D)
28 Nov 14 UTC
Leaving a game.
Is there a way to forfeit or leave a game?
9 replies
Open
krellin (80 DX)
26 Nov 14 UTC
(+1)
Krellin's Holiday Advice
Hail fair Webdipistanians....as these Holidays fall upon us like an anvil on the old brain box, we know that much mental anguish will be suffered by many. FEAR NOT! For amongst you is one with aged wisdom and sage advice, who can guide you through these impetuous times. Nasty conversation at the Turkey Table? I'll help you answer...Girlfriend wants to bring another dude into the mix? I'll tackle that. Bring me your woes...Krellin's Kounseling is open for bid'ness...
42 replies
Open
Your Humble Narrator (1922 D)
27 Nov 14 UTC
(+1)
I am drunk
Discuss
15 replies
Open
Yoyoyozo (65 D)
27 Nov 14 UTC
diplomacy dislodge question.
Yeah quick question.
Lets say you have countries A and B.
If they each have one piece attempting to move into an empty territory but during that turn, Country A gets dislodged, does the standoff still occur or does B move into its desired territory? Thanks in advance.
2 replies
Open
Strauss (758 D)
27 Nov 14 UTC
(+2)
Bridge Builder
Some Pontifex here to claim to have the nicest or most inexpensive bridges?
3 replies
Open
steephie22 (182 D(S))
27 Nov 14 UTC
What's the name of a picture/movie that changes and transitions smoothly in a loop?
So what I mean is that you don't really notice it's a loop unless you're paying close attention because the end of the loop fits perfectly on the start of the loop. There's no strong feeling of repetition. Just a 'background' continuously moving.
Just looking for the word for such a thing. I saw one quite a while ago and thought I could use one of those in a design, but now I finally have the time to do something with it, I forgot what it's called :-(
Help me webdip!
8 replies
Open
Jamiet99uk (865 D)
27 Nov 14 UTC
Gunboat: Playing as Russia
When, in a gunboat game, in the Spring 1901 moves, England, Germany, Austria and Turkey all make an anti-Russia opening, what is Russia supposed to do, exactly?
6 replies
Open
Bayclown (0 DX)
05 Nov 14 UTC
WebDiplomacy History Thread
After hearing about that Congo shit I was wondering what other scandals/notorious players/legendary stories there are buried in the annals of this site. I assume some of the elder players would know some of the lore I speak of and can weave some tales of old?
113 replies
Open
Zach0805 (100 D)
26 Nov 14 UTC
Iran
USA Secretary of State,John Kerry, has anouced that Iranian Nuclear Talks will be extended for another 7 months. Discuss.
8 replies
Open
rmf (100 D)
25 Nov 14 UTC
Is it normal for people to sign up for very slow games (10 days/phase) and stay quiet?
I am relatively new to webDip. From the little experience I have here, I get the impression that it is not uncommon for very slow games to be pretty quiet. I've had no replies at all from some parties, even though they are giving orders. Is this usual? I thought very slow games would have lots and lots of diplomatic talk.
10 replies
Open
2ndWhiteLine (2601 D(B))
25 Nov 14 UTC
Was Moses a Founding Father?
http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/11/was-moses-a-founding-father/383153/
29 replies
Open
Chaqa (3971 D(B))
10 Nov 14 UTC
Scenario Game: World War 1
Anyone interested in trying a WW1 scenario game?
27 replies
Open
KingCyrus (511 D)
21 Nov 14 UTC
Executive Action
Today, President Obama said that his administration will grant deferred action on some groups of illegal immigrants. Discuss.
105 replies
Open
Mintyboy4 (100 D)
25 Nov 14 UTC
Any Programmers out there?
Yes, Mr webdip programmer person, I'm looking at you!
Mintyboy4 (100 D)
25 Nov 14 UTC
Hey my question is simple, I'm currently on a gap year from University, and I want to learn about Programming till fill the time, and I think it would be a great thing to know for my future job prospects, but there's so many different languages. Are there any programmers that can offer their advice on what's the best route to start with, good to transition into others etc.

I've used google to research it somewhat, but I would appreciate an honest opinion, of what programming is like, and what to expect.

Any feedback would be cool and appreciated.
Chaqa (3971 D(B))
25 Nov 14 UTC
It alternates between incredibly fun and horrendously frustrating.
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
25 Nov 14 UTC
Python is a good choice. Very versatile and has a lot of really good resources.
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
25 Nov 14 UTC
If you enjoy coding and are good at it, you can pretty much print money, so it's worth trying out. It will be apparent fairly quickly if you don't like it though. I don't know of anyone who has spent years coding only to realize they hated it.
Chaqa (3971 D(B))
25 Nov 14 UTC
Python is OK. I would recommend learning Java, C++, or C#, as all are popular and there's a lot of information about them. C++ is how I learned, and I find it's easier to branch out to Java from C++ than the opposite. C# has the best of both worlds, so that's also an option.
Mintyboy4 (100 D)
25 Nov 14 UTC
Right, C++ is one I tend to hear a lot about in day to day life, I'm considering starting there or Java.
But taking your point into account possibly C++ would be a better starting option.
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
25 Nov 14 UTC
I'm not a fan of Java personally. C++ would be much better. What you'll find though is that the language really doesn't matter so much as your approach to coding. Once you've got that down its very easy to pick up new languages.
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
25 Nov 14 UTC
(+3)
And be sure you learn vim : )
semck83 (229 D(B))
25 Nov 14 UTC
I second (third? fourth?) the C++ recommendation. As others have said, it's easier to move from it to others than vice versa. It is also an extremely flexible language that supports a lot of different fascinating programming idioms, and you can write just about anything in it (though more specialized languages will be more efficient for certain classes of problems, like web services).

Also, becoming good at C++ will, IMHO, teach you more about writing efficient code and thinking about everything that's going on, in *any* language you may use, than just about any other language.
Chaqa (3971 D(B))
25 Nov 14 UTC
Vim is OK. If you're a student you can get Visual Studio 2013 Professional for free from Dreamspark, which is an AMAZING C++/C# development IDE, with lots of extensions and plugins.

Eclipse is good for Java and other languages (I forget what all it supports, I've used it for Scala mostly).
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
25 Nov 14 UTC
Advanced IDE are good for large scale projects but for learning, I think a simple editor is much better. It forces you to do things for yourself.
Chaqa (3971 D(B))
25 Nov 14 UTC
That's true. I have some friends who swear by Vim, and others who love VS. It depends on the person, budget, situation, etc.
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
25 Nov 14 UTC
Also, what is your degree in? That could make a big difference.
Tolstoy (1962 D)
25 Nov 14 UTC
Java is easier to learn (and more forgiving) than C++ - I would start there.
Chaqa (3971 D(B))
25 Nov 14 UTC
(+1)
I don't agree that Java is easier to learn. And even if it's a degree easier, the transition from Java to C++ can be painful. I've never seen someone have issues transition from C++ to Java, but the opposite way is often painful for beginners.
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
25 Nov 14 UTC
(+1)
There is a lot of overhead and inefficiencies associated with Java that are not representative of most languages. It is also only useful for high level development. It is much easier to go from a low level language to a high level than the other way around.
Sherincall (338 D)
25 Nov 14 UTC
I really recommend against C++. For starting, you should really only consider Python or C. They are at completely opposite ends of the spectrum, but both are easy to learn and get into.
C is rarely used in the real world (though I use it exclusively in my day job), but is the best foundation and it is easy to branch to everything else.
Python is easy to learn, has good real world applications, and you'll be able to write actually useful stuff in a few weeks. The drawback is that you'll be missing some background knowledge about how it actually works - which is usually not needed.

A good C programmer will understand his code down to do circuit level. Python programmers don't care about any of that - Basically it's just give instructions and watch the magic happen. Whichever sounds more interesting to you.
Personally speaking:
C++ is unwieldy, tedious and frankly pretty old fashioned
Java is intuitive, powerful and because of this a pleasure to program in, especially using Eclipse.
That being said, it's important to learn multiple languages. Python, C++, C# and Java are all great suggestions, and a great deal of it depends on personal preference.
Short answer: try them all, when you find the one you like, you'll know.
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
25 Nov 14 UTC
Why would you recommend C over C++? C++ has a lot of the low-level advantages of C with the added benefit of being Object Oriented, which is very important to know.
Sherincall (338 D)
25 Nov 14 UTC
@abge: OOP can come later. C++ has a LOT of stuff that's hard to understand. I personally know no one who really knows C++. *
C on the other hand is a tiny language. You can learn everything detail about it in a month. When you write your code in C, you know exactly what is happening under the hood and why. I think it is the perfect foundation.
After you've mastered C, branching to C++, Java or any other OO language is a breeze. You shouldn't start with them.

*if you think you know C++, here's a very quick riddle: auto x = [](){x++;};
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
25 Nov 14 UTC
OK fair enough. I think a lot depends in what the OP wants. If he really wants to understand how languages and computers function, starting with C may be the best. If we wants to immediately start making use able programs, he should go for Python.
uclabb (589 D)
25 Nov 14 UTC
Pseudocode is where it's at
Jamiet99uk (865 D)
25 Nov 14 UTC
I know how to program in Comal and Turbo Pascal. Newer developments have passed me by.
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
25 Nov 14 UTC
(+2)
My thesis was actually all done in FORTRAN
Jamiet99uk (865 D)
25 Nov 14 UTC
@ Sherincall: Technically that is a C++0x riddle. In earlier versions of C++ it would make no sense at all.
I started with python, and think it's great for absolute beginners. At a point where you don't understand a thing about programming, a simple language with loose syntax is perfect to build the programming skills which can later be applied to other languages. Otherwise you'll spend forever trying to master the syntax
ghug (5068 D(B))
25 Nov 14 UTC
Everyone else is offering excellent advice, but I've always wished I had learned a functional language such as LISP first, as it really trains your mind to think the right way, even if it isn't all that practical anymore.

Other than that, I think it's important to try C at some point, but it could be very frustrating to do so as your first languages. C++ and Java are both very powerful, but they're also pretty shitty. Python might be a good place to start, but it can also lead to terrible habits.

Lastly, Chaqa will be retracting his Visual Studio recommendation promptly, or bad things will happen to him.
Sherincall (338 D)
25 Nov 14 UTC
@Jamiet: Fine. Suppose f(g(h(i(j(new MyClass())))));, where f/g/h/i/j take and return various combinations of MyClass, MyClass & and MyClass * (and const-ness). Do you think you'd be able to estimate when a constructor, copy constructor and operator= are called? How about destructors for automatic objects? God help us if we add exceptions to the mix.

It tries to be a low level language, but is so mangled and complicated (and buggy and inconsistent) that it's just pointless. Write critical code in C. Write everything else in Python or something.
Chaqa (3971 D(B))
25 Nov 14 UTC
@ghug: I retract nothing.
oscarjd74 (100 D)
26 Nov 14 UTC
@Sherincall

"Suppose f(g(h(i(j(new MyClass())))));"

That's just bad coding IMO. In the interest of maintainability of your projects you should always value readability over conciseness when you write code and in most cases even over the code's efficiency. So that should probably read something like:

// Short description of what the hell MyClass is.
MyClass MyClassObject;
MyClass* MyClassPointer;
MyClass& MyClassReference;

// Short description of what the hell this code actually does
MyClassObject = new MyClass();
MyClassPointer = DescriptiveFunctionName1(MyClassObject);
MyClassPointer = DescriptiveFunctionName2(MyClassPointer);
MyClassReference = DescriptiveFunctionName3(MyClassPointer);
MyClassObject = DescriptiveFunctionName4(MyClassReference);
DescriptiveFunctionName5(MyClassObject);

Note that I might have gotten some of that wrong since I actually never use C++ myself. I think I sufficiently illustrated my point though.
semck83 (229 D(B))
26 Nov 14 UTC
I strongly, strongly recommend *against* learning C before C++. Learning C first will just teach you a bunch of wrong and limited way to think about programming, and then you'll take a lifetime to learn to get out of the ruts C forces you into and into better idioms, like type safety, OOP, and generic programming.

See this FAQ from the creator of C++:

http://www.stroustrup.com/bs_faq.html#prerequisite

As for Java -- among the other disadvantages that people have pointed out, including the important facts that Java is inefficient and Java programs suck, I think Java is worse to learn on becasue it has too much going on behind the scenes. One of the beauties of C++ is that the language does dang near nothing that you don't tell it to do. This really helps you learn about how programming and computers work, and it will help you appreciate, when you do move on to other languages, just what they are and aren't doing *for* you, and what that means in terms of efficiency, control, etc.

And also, speaking of control, Java gives you less of it. The Java philosophy is more or less that programmers are stupid and will make bad mistakes if we give them powerful tools. There's truth in that, but it's also restrictive and kills efficiency and (often) elegance.
semck83 (229 D(B))
26 Nov 14 UTC
(+1)
Also, C++ is a thing of beauty and a joy forever.
Chaqa (3971 D(B))
26 Nov 14 UTC
Every language has some odd/ridiculous syntax. I don't think a language is bad if it can do/looks weird in CERTAIN situations.

That's like saying "I'd never buy a Ford Mustang because if the wheels are bad and I'm going 80 on the ice, it will flip."
Jamiet99uk (865 D)
26 Nov 14 UTC
Fun fact: Windows was written in C++
Sherincall (338 D)
26 Nov 14 UTC
@oscarjd: Correct. I just did that as a really quick example. Consider this, for example:
MyClass MyClass::getIncremented(MyClass x)
{
MyClass y = x;
y.n++;
return y;
}
MyClass a = MyClass::getInstance();
MyClass b = MyClass::getIncremented(a);

Of the top of my head, I see: Constructor in getInstance, operator= for a, Destructor for the temporary object returned by getInstance. CopyConsructor for passing a as a param, operator= for y=x, CopyConstructor for passing y as a param. Destructor for the param x. Operator= for b. Destructor for the temporary object returned by getIncremented. And I'm sure I missed a few.

@semck: "One of the beauties of C++ is that the language does dang near nothing that you don't tell it to do. "
Yeah.. just like what I wrote above. That argument is exactly why I'm saying C is better than C++ for learning. I don't think anyone who learns C will be stuck without understanding the OOP concepts. Actually, I think that once you've learned C enough, and have created your own vtables and rtti and whatnot, moving to a language that has syntax support for it will be trivial.
Jamiet99uk (865 D)
26 Nov 14 UTC
Start with something like Pascal that has strong typing.
Chaqa (3971 D(B))
26 Nov 14 UTC
Sorry Sherincall, but there's nothing confusing or ambiguous whatsoever in what you've put. Whether a copy constructor was called, or which operator, etc. isn't quite that important, that's like arguing over a missing comma in a paper.

getIncremented makes a copy of the passed in object, increments its data member n, and returns this changed object. Getinstance, I assume, is a constructor to make a new MyClass object (typical syntax would simply be Myclass a = MyClass() ), and b is a, but incremented.
Sherincall (338 D)
26 Nov 14 UTC
I was commenting on your remark that you know all that happens. You don't - Look at how many constructors and destructors are called. And then, if you enable optimizations, it will get rid of the temporary object when returning a class - Means less constructor/destructor calls. Those things could have side effects.
Sure, you should write them so they don't, but you don't write all the code. Hell, put a print in every constructor and on different systems you'll get different output.

When looking at the high level code, it seems easy to understand - Create one object, create another that has one field incremented. But so much stuff happens in between that no one knows - Just like in Java, for example. But unlike C++, in Java you know you have no idea what is actually happening. Here you fall into the trap of thinking you understand it.
Mintyboy4 (100 D)
26 Nov 14 UTC
Wow there are more of you out there than I expected.
My degree is in Accounting and Finance, but it's a degree that I'm really not a fan off. Which is largely why I'm taking a year out and working in retail and just earning money for the time being. I'm still academically minded though, and I just figured learning some kind of programming would be something I could self teach myself somewhat and has great employability potential, that's the plan anyway. I'm not looking to instantly start writing systems, I want a general understanding of programming and how it works first. And see where that takes me.

From what I've gathered from this thread, Python will probably be more fun for me, but C++ more useful.
oscarjd74 (100 D)
26 Nov 14 UTC
A agree with Chaqa. It's not really that complicated. Or at least you don't really have to worry about it. Except maybe in cases where a constructor or a destructor does some very unconventional things. Arguably though, in those cases you should have picked another solution to whatever the problem was than to stuff it into the constructor or destructor.

Also, although again I'm not that familiar with C++, I would assume that modern compilers automatically optimize some of this stuff. For instance, assuming that thread-safety isn't an issue, then since the variable x in your example doesn't actually get changed within the function, there is no need to create a copy when it is passed, i.e. the function can simply work with the instance a that already exists outside of the function scope.


40 replies
jmo1121109 (3812 D)
25 Nov 14 UTC
Grand jury doesn't indite Darren Wilson in death of Michael Brown
Thoughts?
134 replies
Open
Valis2501 (2850 D(G))
23 Nov 14 UTC
(+2)
Diplomacy Tournament Scoring Methods
I’m starting this thread with two goals:
(1) To further discussion on the three Diplomacy tournament scoring methods I have witnessed
(2) To invite anyone who knows of Diplomacy tournament scoring methods not outlined below to post them. Any and all are welcome.
31 replies
Open
MadMarx (36299 D(G))
24 Nov 14 UTC
The first ever GR Challenge
http://webdiplomacy.net/forum.php?threadID=399706
15 replies
Open
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
24 Nov 14 UTC
GR Challenge Sub Needed
I need a sub for Game 3 of the GR Challenge. Please see inside for more info.
39 replies
Open
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
24 Nov 14 UTC
One player needed to start GR Challenge Game
We are short one player to start Game 3 of the GR Challenge. Great group of players. See below for more details. If interested post within.
5 replies
Open
metaturbo707 (126 D)
23 Nov 14 UTC
Control active game play time option ?
Hello,

What if it was possible to control the time allowed for game play, such as, "game only active between the hours of X & Y". Then shorter phase games could be played more easily and not at strange hours of the night. Thoughts?
9 replies
Open
Jamiet99uk (865 D)
21 Nov 14 UTC
(+1)
Who deserves the most +1s?
Just +1 this instead. zultar offered the wrong voting options.
13 replies
Open
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
17 Nov 14 UTC
(+2)
October 2014 GR Challenge!
You know the drill! Full Press Classic WTA GR Challenge Signup!
Find your GR here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_KSmWyLiG1pSWdQNGVCSUVPNUU/view?usp=sharing
GR. Name (Max Points, Phase Length Preference, Non/Anon)
176 replies
Open
ILN (100 D)
23 Nov 14 UTC
Nice idea
https://www.helium.co/#/home
2 replies
Open
KingCyrus (511 D)
18 Nov 14 UTC
(+3)
This Global Warming is Killing Me
Just got finished snow blowing for about three hours...
138 replies
Open
krellin (80 DX)
19 Nov 14 UTC
(+8)
Fluid Dynamics
https://haxiomic.github.io/GPU-Fluid-Experiments/html5/?q=UltraHigh

Righteous.
17 replies
Open
redhouse1938 (429 D)
23 Nov 14 UTC
The burdens of administration
There's something I'd like to discuss with you all.
8 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
23 Nov 14 UTC
NFL Pick 'em Week 12: Let it Snow, Let it Snow, Let it Snow...eh, Buffalo? ;)
So, with Buffalo's game postponed until Monday (and moved to Detroit as, um, Buffalo's sort of buried under snow) and the Raiders having won their first game of the season--and in more than a year!--vs. the rival Chiefs, we enter Week 12. The Lions and Patriots meet in a big clash. Rams//Chargers is an intriguing match-up. Cardinals/Seahawks up in Seattle, and Ravens/Saints on a suddenly-crucial Monday Nighter. Week 12... pick 'em!
2 replies
Open
JamesYanik (548 D)
22 Nov 14 UTC
What's the record?
what is the longest time a classic game has been played over (i dont mean how many days i mean # of phases elapsed). The game can have been drawn or won i dont care about that.
5 replies
Open
ILN (100 D)
22 Nov 14 UTC
"Merkel runs out of patience with Putin"
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/merkel-runs-out-of-patience-with-putin/article21712671/

Best line in the article:
"Obama is a very weak politician"
9 replies
Open
Newmunich (208 D(B))
22 Nov 14 UTC
Proposal to Limit Cancelled Games
The issue with games being cancelled due to Meta-gaming and other infractions has gotten to the point where it is no longer fun to play. Let's solve this!
14 replies
Open
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