As a coda, to all--

These tunnels?

Israelis and Hamas operatives are both describing it as not just a few isolated tunnels...but nearly something like an entire underground city, in terms of size and scope.

Now, that took millions and millions to create...

May I ask why Hamas thought THAT was the best use of money when Gazans are so terribly impoverished, to set up an elaborate booby-trapped underground city that opens up into Israel? Maybe, when they're that unemployed, that money might have...gone to...something ELSE?

Unless they planned on fighting Israel in a deadly and costly war, of course, and planned for such an eventuality--but a peaceful group like Hamas that of course puts civilians first would NEVER do THAT.

Millions and millions of dollars' worth of underground war zones...

Instead of building the things Gaza actually needs.

That's anything BUT governing that puts the citizens first.

"In Gaza (not inside Israel proper, not inside the West Bank) I maintain the blame for the suffering is more the fault of Hamas and both its policies (for example, hiding and firing weapons from what are supposed to be safe zones, thereby making them targets and ceasing to make them safe, endangering hundreds of civilians at a time) as well as what it tells its citizens (ie, to stay put in civilian areas rather than evacuate) than Israel"

Israel is the one making these places targets, even though the threat against themselves from these stockpiles is minimal.

But I'd love to see you use objective evidence to map the Hamas - Muslim Brotherhood - ISIS connection.

"We judge one another by the quality of our friends, in part..."

http://www.france24.com/en/20130328-assad-syria-israel-friend-netanyahu-diplomacy-unrest-haaretz/

lets get judging then

"Hilarious that you would chide people for entering into the discussion barely informed when you seem to share that same attribute here."

I'm as well informed on this as you are, Chairman...I'm sorry that disagreement gets mistaken for being uninformed.

Then again, some might describe defending an organization that is linked to ISIS while funneling money away from building Gaza ABOVE ground to instead build a death trap BELOW ground as being somewhat naive and uninformed...

Hamas' tunnels largely serve a dual purpose. In times of war they are used to strike. In times of calm they are used to ferry supplies to civilians.

http://america.aljazeera.com/multimedia/photo-gallery/2014/7/gaza-tunnels-economicmilitary.html

"But I'd love to see you use objective evidence to map the Hamas - Muslim Brotherhood - ISIS connection."

I already did--Hamas IS the Palestinian chapter of the Muslim Brotherhood, which is itself connected to ISIS.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/175643

"Several leaders from various factions in the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) on Saturday urged Hamas to dissociate itself from the Muslim Brotherhood, some calling the Egyptian organization a "terrorist group," according to the Ma’an news agency.

A Fatah representative in the PLO executive committee was quoted as having said that Hamas should detach itself from the Brotherhood, warning of political, economic, and security consequences if Hamas remained "subordinate" to "this banned terrorist group."

"Confirm loyalty to the Palestinian people and the question of Palestine," Jamal Muheisin urged Hamas, according to Ma’an.

A representative of the Arab Liberation Front said that Hamas has always prioritized the Muslim Brotherhood's interests over the interests of the “Palestinian people.”

"The (Hamas) movement's subordination to the Muslim Brotherhood organization has weakened the Palestinian position," Mahmoud Ismail charged."

That's the PLO ITSELF saying Hamas is connected to the Muslim Brotherhood.

"I'm as well informed on this as you are, Chairman...I'm sorry that disagreement gets mistaken for being uninformed.

Then again, some might describe defending an organization that is linked to ISIS while funneling money away from building Gaza ABOVE ground to instead build a death trap BELOW ground as being somewhat naive and uninformed..."

Well hey, at least you've changed points for once. But I charge you for being misinformed largely because you parrot one side of the facts, with no evidence in your posts other than how you feel, and fail to acknowledge the validity of the other side.

"Hamas' tunnels largely serve a dual purpose. In times of war they are used to strike. In times of calm they are used to ferry supplies to civilians."

Then you would account for how many tunnels open up into Israeli territory and/or just how vast the areas beneath a single booby-trapped city by saying...?

And do you really think that those millions spent on those booby-trapped tunnels was money better spent than working on the infrastructure ABOVE Gaza...which is what the money was intended to do?

I was on mobile, checking PMs now.

"But I charge you for being misinformed largely because you parrot one side of the facts, with no evidence in your posts other than how you feel, and fail to acknowledge the validity of the other side."

I've shared link after link after link now...so that's patently untrue...

And you have yet to acknowledge the THIRD party in this, Chairman...

EGYPT.

One vote for Israel, one for Hamas...but who does Egypt side with, as it borders both and has historically had close connections to both Gaza and Israel?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/04/egyptian-court-bans-hamas-activities

"A court in Cairo has banned the hardline Palestinian Islamist group Hamas – a movement closely bound to the Muslim Brotherhood – from working within Egyptian borders."

AND

"An offshoot of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas has frequently been a secondary target of a crackdown on the Brotherhood since the latter's overthrow last July."

Egypt has sided with Gaza before....sided with Israel before...

And it sides, if not with Israel, then markedly against Hamas now.

And I think that's honestly the fairest position out there right now--

Not necessarily pro-Israel...but anti-HAMAS.

That is, you don't have to like Israel to agree that Hamas is a terrible organization that poses an absolutely horrific threat to any hopes of peace in the region...by example, and by the statements of those who would be involved in such a peace, as both the PLO and Israel take issue with Hamas' stance in the peace process.

I've said it before, I'll say it again--

Were this simply between Israel and the PLO, I think we'd have a deal by now.

Israel has done much wrong...but were I to identify the worst roadblock to peace after the question of Jerusalem, I would identify it has Hamas, with the settlers second (they're 100% wrong, I agree, but there are fewer of them, and Israel can always withdraw them, with force if necessary, whereas the PLO clearly can't control the actions of partner Hamas) and land swaps/security issues/right of return vs. the desire for a majority Jewish state all coming after that.

"I already did--Hamas IS the Palestinian chapter of the Muslim Brotherhood, which is itself connected to ISIS.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/175643"

That's half the story. It'd be straining to say Hamas have a connection to IS through the Brotherhood, or even that the Brotherhood themselves have a connection to IS. IS is largely its own beast which has openly burned its bridges with a lot of former Islamic groups. Guilt by association doesn't really work here.

"Then you would account for how many tunnels open up into Israeli territory and/or just how vast the areas beneath a single booby-trapped city by saying...?

And do you really think that those millions spent on those booby-trapped tunnels was money better spent than working on the infrastructure ABOVE Gaza...which is what the money was intended to do?"

Tunnels open up in Israeli territory for the purpose of attacking Israel. I think that's pretty evident right? I mean they are in conflict. Don't expect Hamas to roll over every time Israel decides to launch a bombing/ground campaign.

But I do distinctly remember you saying earlier that money was spent on repairing infrastructure, so it sounds like it went to all sorts of use.

"I would argue that that's the most likely rationale for that lull, that it was more Hamas licking wounds and preparing itself rather than an earnest effort at peace...I'd argue that point is strengthened by Hamas' own admission that they didn't do so because they were observing a truce, but rather simply because they were affecting repairs to their infrastructure (which, in hindsight, I'd honestly be interested in knowing the nature of, if those repairs had something to do with these tunnels, but that is a bias too far, I'll grant you, so I'm not suggesting that's actually the case, but rather surmising that I don't see those efforts linked so much as pro-peace as much as they are Hamas healing itself, since Hamas gave no such point to peace or even to the truce.)"

"I've shared link after link after link now...so that's patently untrue..."

Right, I've counted two at most, on mostly shaky issues. You still largely work on conjecture + your own sentiments of the issue.

Egypt is currently run by a military junta more hardline than Israel and which openly executes its political opponents in show trials. I don't expect much from them on this issue at all.

"Were this simply between Israel and the PLO, I think we'd have a deal by now."

Hmm, if only there was a time when Israel could have reconciled with just the PLO and established a permanent peace deal. Too bad this NEVER happened, ever.

"Egypt is currently run by a military junta more hardline than Israel and which openly executes its political opponents in show trials. I don't expect much from them on this issue at all."

Or they're run by people who don't much like the idea of being subjected to rule by the Muslim Brotherhood and thus ousted that menace from power.

"Right, I've counted two at most, on mostly shaky issues. You still largely work on conjecture + your own sentiments of the issue."

I've posted more than that, but here's another...

www.vox.com/2014/7/21/5923145/gaza-anti-semitism-europe

"France has the third-largest Jewish population in the world, after the United States and Israel. It appears to have seen the worst anti-Semitic violence in recent days.

"Eight synagogues in France have been targeted in the past week," The New York Times reports. Over the July 19-20th weekend, "a radical fringe among pro-Palestinian protesters in the French capital clashed with police, targeting Jewish shops, lighting smoke bombs, and throwing stones and bottles at riot police," the Times reported.

"They are not screaming 'death to the Israelis' on the streets of Paris, " Roger Cuikerman, head of French Jewish political group CRIF, said. "They are screaming ‘death to the Jews.'"

According to The Independent, a peaceful protest in the northern Paris suburb Saracelles "degenerated" into anti-Semitic violence. "Several cars were burned," the Independent reported, and "three shops, including a Kosher grocery, were burned and pillaged. A railway station was severely damaged."

It's gotten so bad that French authorities outright banned protests in certain parts of Paris. Prime Minister Manuel Valls warned of a "new form of anti-Semitism" taking hold in the country."

Third-most Jews there of any country, after Israel and the US...

And like the article says, NOT being anti-Israeli...

They're being Antisemitic and calling for Jews to die PERIOD.

And that's in a country where Jews should feel "safe."

THAT is why I push for Israel...the Jews NEED a homeland for protection...

Every people (including the Palestinians) deserves that right.

"Hmm, if only there was a time when Israel could have reconciled with just the PLO and established a permanent peace deal. Too bad this NEVER happened, ever."

If only there were a time when Palestinians were guaranteed a state and didn't need the PLO OR Hamas for it.

Oh well...I'm sure that never happened...certainly not in 1947...

And they certainly never said, along with other nations, that they'd "push the Jews into the sea."

And they CERTAINLY wouldn't be bitter of having lost their chance at a state in a war to take all the land for themselves.

Nope. Never.

"Tunnels open up in Israeli territory for the purpose of attacking Israel. I think that's pretty evident right? I mean they are in conflict. Don't expect Hamas to roll over every time Israel decides to launch a bombing/ground campaign."

OK, then don't expect Israel to lie down and take rocket attacks and border incursions and not bring their even bigger, even better weapons to the show.

"Or they're run by people who don't much like the idea of being subjected to rule by the Muslim Brotherhood and thus ousted that menace from power."

So you didn't really follow much of the Egyptian revolution either eh?

"www.vox.com/2014/7/21/5923145/gaza-anti-semitism-europe"

I'm failing to see how anti-semitism in France justifies Israeli aggression in Gaza. At least Jews in France can flee their violence.

"If only there were a time when Palestinians were guaranteed a state and didn't need the PLO OR Hamas for it."

You can certainly be reductionist to the point of finding some fault somewhere in history, but the sentiments of the 40s/50s are not what they were in the 90s or certainly today. Israel had the chance at exactly what you stated, direct negotiation with PLO, and it did not work out. This gave rise to an even worse group than the PLO, Hamas. Israel is going to continue to pound at Hamas and only give rise to something much worse.

"OK, then don't expect Israel to lie down and take rocket attacks and border incursions and not bring their even bigger, even better weapons to the show."

I wouldn't, except these bigger and better weapons are routinely used against people who have nothing to do with the rockets or tunnels. And not because they were human shields:

"http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/22/world/middleeast/questions-about-tactics-and-targets-as-civilian-toll-climbs-in-israeli-strikes.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&smid=tw-nytimes&_r=0

This story was passed over earlier:

"On Monday night, a strike hit an eight-story apartment building in downtown Gaza City —*** an area where Israeli officials had urged Gazans to take shelter***. The building collapsed as rescue crews were inside, killing more people. The death toll, at least 13, was still being tallied."

http://news.yahoo.com/un-school-sheltering-gaza-displaced-hit-israel-shells-170242373.html;_ylt=AwrBEiJ8ms5Tpz4ALjvQtDMD

The official said a team, ***with Israeli clearance***, was at the school run by the UN agency for Palestinian refugees UNRWA in Al-Maghazi when Israeli tank shelling resumed, hitting the building on Tuesday afternoon.

http://www.thelancet.com/gaza-letter-2014
http://download.thelancet.com/flatcontentassets/pdfs/S0140673614610448.pdf

An open letter from a group of doctors condemning Israeli's unwanton aggression against innocents. These people alone know more than anyone in this thread and they are unequivocally against this campaign.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/in-west-bank-israel-revives-home-demolitions-to-stop-hamas/2014/07/22/c8197236-1dd7-4874-a3eb-f9438065644f_story.html?

The punishment isn't contained to Gaza. Here, RELATIVES of Hamas living in the WEST BANK have their homes destroyed for no reason. No rockets come from West Bank. How does anyone justify this?

http://www.fairobserver.com/region/middle_east_north_africa/idf-veterans-its-mostly-punishment-part-1-2/

And you honestly don't have to take my word for it. Here are the words of a number of former IDF soldiers on what being a part of an Israeli ground campaign is like.

"It’s mostly punishment. I hate that: “They did this to us, so we’ll do that to them.” Do you know what a naval blockade means for the people in Gaza? There’s no food for a few days. For example, suppose there’s an attack in Netanya, so they impose a naval blockade for four days on the entire Strip. No seagoing vessel can leave. A Dabur patrol boat is stationed at the entrance to the port, if they try to go out, within seconds the soldiers shoot at the bow and even deploy attack helicopters to scare them. "

"During the operations in Gaza, anyone walking around in the street, you shoot at the torso. In one operation in the Philadelphi corridor, anyone walking around at night, you shoot at the torso."

"They shot anyone walking around in the street. It always ended with, “We killed six terrorists today.” Whoever you shot in the street is “a terrorist.”"




http://www.canada.com/news/Israel+bombs+mosques+fishing+boats+farms+Gaza/10050530/story.html

Israel burns farms and fishing boats, vital instruments in feeding Gazans, which obviously contained massive Hamas stockpiles right?

From the previous link in connection to this

"Seventy percent of Gaza lives on fishing — they have no other choice. For them it means not eating. There are whole families who don’t eat for a few days because of the blockade. They eat bread and water."


No matter if you think Hamas is bad or not, Israel is not just targeting Hamas and their weapons. They are attacking all Gazans to keep them in fear and to punish them for something they have no hand in. The ones largely impacted by this are innocent women and children. There is simply no justification for it."

"I'm failing to see how anti-semitism in France justifies Israeli aggression in Gaza. At least Jews in France can flee their violence."

...Yes...that's the appropriate response to that...

Hey, Jews, at least you can run. Nice.

You know what...I think we're done here.

My point was in the first sentence. The second was an aside. I mean, you were clearly trying to change the subject.