You're eking ever closer to being muted Krellin: Civil disobedience has been an integral part of the States' social and political progress over the past 60 years or so. In fact, it has been a necessary tool in the proper implementation of your constitution and the fundamental freedoms it meant to protect.

The only way you can deny that claim is if you are, after all, a bigot (and in many more ways than one).

Let me see how you handle that one. I'm really curious to find out whether or not I'm getting rid of your voice.

And to think that a year or two ago, I went to the bat defending you in this forum...

Ahhh...I seeeeee....Typical right-winger. Civil disobediance is OK when it supports YOUR cause? Otherwise, I'm sure you are a very strict law-and-order kind of guy.

Vomit...

So you see no other way, other than treason, that he could have brought this issue to light?

I feel like this movement is being fronted by Anonymous. I'll take no part, thank you.

I'm actually in Haiti though so I wouldn't be able to one way or another.

Ahhhhh..the delicious irony. Love a tattle-tale, free-speach, whistle blowing, etc....but want to mute people he disagrees with.

jackass. Mute away, dill weed.

Done.

Snowden could have sent a letter to the heads of the Senate Oversight Committee and the Senate Homesland Security and Government Affairs Committee to make them aware and included excerpts of what he knew. There is a chain of command around the CoC inside the NSA and he *could* have followed that to make the Senate aware before trying the more radical measure of committing treason.

+! Draug Instead, stupid fool wants to protest in support of the constitution while cheering on those that violate it's principles of law and order. what a jackass.

It's interesting that the same people who were upset about referring to Zimmerman as a murderer before he is found guilty have no problem calling Snowden a traitor.

What fascinates me, Abge, is that I recall Krellin calling me a right-winger over what I have said. In alluding to the likes of Martin Luther King and other activists who had no choice but to use civil disobedience in order to see their rights properly enforced, I would have made myself a right-winger...
I guess if you insist on the idea that being right-wing means that you defend freedom wherever and however you must, maybe I sounded that way. But then, that would be a clear misunderstanding of what I was saying: I do not believe in giving the citizens all the freedom in the world, I believe in an equal share of the rights that a political community has agreed upon. And where political institutions are such that they make that impossible (slavery, anyone? DOMA?... the list is too long, I hope you get the idea), and where those same institutions also make it impossible to legally demand change, civil disobedience becomes a necessary mean to those seeking a justice they should already enjoy.
For those thoughts, you can call me by any name.

For thinking that a political regime will actually change if the matters Snowden brought to light were instead brought up privately and discretely, you have to be much more naive than I thought anyone on this site could be. There are laws protecting whistle blowers. Every article and statistic I've seen on their application shows that they are vastly ignored. And Snowden is not the first case, not even in recent years.

You know what the kicker is? Seeing those people defend a president I'm willing to bet they hate, and defend him for spying on his own people and (apparently) diplomatic institutions as well. Those are methods used by socialists and fascists alike... And certainly not methods that your Constitution and amendments condone. You guys do remember that those documents have been ratified so that the government would be limited in how it can interfere with the freedom of its citizens, yes?

@ Cachimbo - the only area where I can take issue with you is limiting civil disobedience to the last 60 years! What were the Minutemen doing at Lexington and Concord?

Lol !!!!
I most certainly stand corrected!

In truth, I did not want to overreach or overstate my claim.

Even further than the Minutemen, Flem. The first settlers of this nation were civil dissenters. Their disobedience - for the most part, obviously not all - is what got them here, and it is, in the very least, a significant portion of the American ideal.

Good grief! And there I was making tiny arguments when I could have used Thor's Hammer!

Just prove's krellin's unbelievable bigotry and ignorance regarding the Constitution. Not any different from most of the Teabaggers.

You said "teabaggers"!!!! Snort, snort!

Draugnar: You're kidding me, right? What the NSA has been doing has been public knowledge for over a decade. You think those fellas higher up the civilian 'command chain' didn't know?

"Snowden could have sent a letter to the heads of the Senate Oversight Committee and the Senate Homesland Security and Government Affairs Committee to make them aware and included excerpts of what he knew. There is a chain of command around the CoC inside the NSA and he *could* have followed that to make the Senate aware before trying the more radical measure of committing treason."

+1 Draug...

It's my experience that a great many of these "protesters" are more interested in an excuse to show off just how civilly disobedient they are and to see just how far they can push things than what they're actually supposed to be civilly disobedient ABOUT.

I think my stance on Snowden is clear by this point--I think he's an attention-seeking narcissist who's committed a crime and, yes, you're right, he DOES deserve the rule of law in this country Al...

And so he deserves a fair trial for the illegal and possibly treasonous actions he's just committed...unfortunately, however, we can't do that right now, because fleeing to a country where "the rule of law" means "What Vladimir Putin says" fit in more with his vision of civil disobedience and freedom, I guess.

The NSA was and is wrong--that doesn't make Snowden right, certainly not one to idolize or protest for.

It's a lose-lose for America, a horrendously-dangerous government operation and a disgustingly-egotistical and narcissistic individual who is currently in a country we're not exactly friendly with, in possession of sensitive documents, has already harmed our diplomatic standing in the world and continues to do so with every passing day.

I see no cause to rally and support EITHER side.

But you go right on there, Chachimbo, Al, you guys have your fun.
Go.
Be civilly disobedient in an Anonymous-inspired event.
After all, THEY stand by the rule of law and don't just hack whatever group they feel at the moment deserves to have their rights and privacy violated, right?

Well, do the math then. They obviously don't bag tea. They are all old fucks that try to keep women down (I'm pretty sure I once heard one of them say to a woman "If you'd just stop voting, having sex, and wanting a job, we wouldn't have to legislate this way") so they obviously aren't the urban dictionary teabagger. That leaves the whining bigot that wants ultimate freedom at any cost but is unwilling to do anything productive to get it but scream for it.

Obi, I must confess being surprised by your comment. Please don't take my plea for civil disobedience as a blind endorsement of the Anonymous group. Those are two vastly distinct issues

"What the NSA has been doing has been public knowledge for over a decade. You think those fellas higher up the civilian 'command chain' didn't know?"

If it's public knowledge/everyone suspected, then why does everyone act so shocked?

(Not accusatory there, an honest question...there seems to be outrage I'm not shocked and offended by this so much as grimly resigned to this being the case a la Benjamin the donkey from "Animal Farm"...yeah, I'm not not shocked the pigs are re-writing the commandments and stealing alcohol and money for themselves, or spying on Americans and treading where they really should not...as good old Benjamin says, "Life will continue on as it always has--that is, badly." You mean the government spies on us in a post-9/11, Patriot Act world? I'M SHOCKED! And I'm just going to type and type all day long on my Facebook and blog and text friends and shout and shout all day long about just HOW shocked I am, and then show up at a rally to show how shocked I am so everyone can see just how committed to the cause of acting shocked and outraged I am--because man oh man is it popular to ACT shocked and morally outraged and show everyone just how shocked and outraged you are...DOING SOMETHING about that, though? Nah, less fashionable. That requires actual work within the system and less idle kvetching and hurling around of "Truth," "Freedom," America," "Now," "Stop," "Big Brother," "1984," and so on...and that's the fun part of being civilly disobedient!)

"After all, THEY stand by the rule of law and don't just hack whatever group they feel at the moment deserves to have their rights and privacy violated, right?"

They hack the groups that are hiding things. They are fighting for the Fourth Amendment. And the First in a sense. They took down Scientology, they exposed China's cyber attacks, they took down the WBC, they put together a massive campaign to reveal child pornographers and get them offline, they unveiled the Steubenville rapists, and they are now in the process of trying to free North Korea.

Of course, by fighting for what's obviously right, they get more prison time than rapists. I guess legally you're correct, Obi; hacking to expose two rapists in Steubenville is much worse than raping a girl. Sorry for questioning you.

"If it's public knowledge/everyone suspected, then why does everyone act so shocked?"

A) The scale of the spying was unknown,
B) That's how it works. Every time some company, some state, the government, the military, etc do something wrong, everyone has to look shocked and appalled, despite knowing full well that this stuff happens and has happened before, otherwise they might have to admit that there is something really wrong.

"It's my experience that a great many of these "protesters" are more interested in an excuse to show off just how civilly disobedient they are and to see just how far they can push things than what they're actually supposed to be civilly disobedient ABOUT."

Waaah, people actually give a shit about something enough to go out and shout about it! Why can't they shut up and write 2000 word posts on forums? Waaaaah.

I'd like to remind everyone that this protest is primarily about reinforcing the rule of law. Specifically, any of you who are angry about Snowden's alleged legal violations should make a point of attending the protest. After all, if you're mad at Snowden for breaking the law, you should be equally mad at the NSA leadership for committing (much more serious) violations of the law.

Seriously, I'd really appreciate any of your protesting Snowden's behavior to man up and attend tomorrow. I'll respect your opinion so much more if you turn off the PlayStation for a couple of hours and actually assert your rights.

Where, when?

Bros, bros, calm down.

Tomorrow, we celebrate Independence Day, that much is true. However, part of the American system of Justice is based upon enforcement of law and the ability to subpoena suspected criminals and witnesses. As Snowden has fled the country, he has prevented the United States Judicial system from reaching a decision on any potential punishment he may deserve. Such actions are symbolic of a defiance and anarchism that have no place as celebration of United States freedoms. You cannot support Snowden and not support the government that upholds such freedoms. By fleeing from the United States government, he has condemned himself as a traitor, and therefore any foreign agency that chooses to withhold him is in direct support of an anti-American agent. Whatever the intentions of his actions, the United States now has direct purpose to deem him a 'terrorist.' The mere fact that this was a 'secret' of the NSA is that they wanted it to be kept a secret. You can claim Constitutional Rights all you want, but as per the Fourth amendment, no Rights are being violated by attempting to secure Edward Snowden. This is a completely 'reasonable seizure,' especially since it has already been revealed that he obviously knows somewhat more than he has already told. Anything he could add to the leaks might actually impair the government's capability to enact certain procedures essential to gathering data on terrorists and anti-American agencies. Personally, I believe that the Freedom of Speech/Press/whatever should not apply in this case. You want to talk about how the Constitution was set up, you should talk about how Hamilton was willing to put down the Whiskey Rebellion with full military support, that was the action to be taken that was necessary for the maintaining of an empire...

And, if I may, I'd like to get a little beside the point, by saying that the United States government is completely justified in performing espionage on both foreign agents and domestic (although we may not be at that point). The United States IS an empire. Although we do not have overseas colonies, there is hardly a place on the globe where our influence does not lie heavy upon. Part of the United States' Grand Strategy of securing their power is to disrupt any governments that show signs of building an anti-American coalition. Such have been the goal of all actions in the Middle East. And one of the essential aspects of maintaining a higher position as an empire among nation-states, is to maintain the 'high ground.' As technology has advanced, it has allowed the United States to control that high ground from every vantage point. Even if the kind of spying Snowden leaked about never took place, the United States has plenty of satellites constantly imaging places of interest. There is hardly a major event that can go on anywhere in the world, that this Empire does not know about. The United States has reached its role as the caretaker of this planet, and if you're not aiding them, you're a terrorist. You Europeans may not like it, you Americans may not like it, but even if the United States never needs this level of information, you better bet that we should have it, just because no one else can. Some piddly little protest ain't gonna do shit in protecting you 'Freedoms.' Needless to say, it is the Federal government who maintains and oversees your freedoms. It will take them away just as easily as you gained them, and justifiably so.

Oh hey, I see the link now.

As a reminder, this protest is not about Snowden. Plenty of people who are planning to attend have various degrees of disapproval/condemnation of Snowden. No one is saying that two wrongs make a right and I hope that Mr. Snowden's behavior, regardless of how you see it, will not distract you from the fact that your tax dollars are being used to build an illegal surveillance infrastructure and to marginalize the rights of people both in this country and outside of it.

@abge - there is nothing inconsistent about declaring apoint on view on Zimmerman, and a point of view on Zimmerman. Are you such a fool that in every instance of a "public" case such as these two you ALWAYS declare the person under focus as guilty? Good god, how moronic are you?

I think Zimmerman is innocent of 2nd degree murder because I think the evidence supports that some thug kis attacked him with the intent of doing him great boldily harm, because Zimmer got the shit beat out of him.

I think Snowden commited treason because he puclicly released "national secrets" (supposedely) and then fled the country to our "enemies" and asked for asylum.

Good god, Abge, you are a smart guy. Fucking figure it out, man. Just for once put your demented politics aside and use the common sense I"m pretty sure you possess.

As for the rest of you turd-brains supporting Snowden -- two wrongs don't make a right. The government overextending it's reach on public surveillance does not give some jackass the right to disclose information that he no doubt signed *very* strict and legally binding documents NOT to disclose publicly. He broke the law, and is not a hero - he's a criminal. And it astounds me that some moron (that would be you people) can somehow put up a post where you both praise the idea of marching in support of the Constitution - which is a document form which we derive our laws - and then praise the person viol;ating our laws. Wow. Just wow.

And...back to Agbe -- you are an Engineer. Someday you will find yourself in a situation where you have to sign non-disclosures because of the tech you are working on. When they comapny fails to compensate you properly, or you decide you don't like their marketing techniques, etc. I can *assure* you that this will not give you the right or moral obligation to suddenly disclose the the world the technology you have been working on.

As for the specifics of what the NSA is doing....sigh.....you are all such a bunch of mindless sheep lapping up the coolaide. It's amazing really. They are not "spying on you". They collect the business records. They don't "monitor you phone calls" If any of you would take about 10 minutes to do a little research an learn what they are actually doing, you wojuld be ashamed of how you have been duped by the media.

I dare any of you to go commit a crime, and then I will laugh my ass off as all sorts of business records are used in the court room to establish your whereabouts, etc. Nobody complains about this -- which has been going on forever. Visa, Mastecard, the bank....everyone keeps the records of what you do with them. If and when the time comes that you are tied to something suspicious, they query the records to see if they can tie you to a crime. Nobody examines your buying habits *daily*...they do it on a need to know basis.

Same thing with the NSA. They have records. They sit in a database doing nothing. WHEN and ONLY WHEN they get a suspicious number -- say a phone number from a cell phone recovered by a spy in the field -- they run the nunber through the database and see who it is connected to. IF you are connected to that number,....NOW they will go through your shit. If you are not connected, nobody will examine your shit. Just like nobody examines your bank records until you throw a flag.

So get the fuck over it. Again...for such a bunch of intelligent people, this web site hosts an amazing collection of paranoid dumbasses for whom common sense is but a dream....

Correction -- declaring a point of view on Zimmerman and a point of view on Snowden

obiwanobiwan: Because people have a short term memory span, I suppose. If the NSA was harvesting e-mails and phone call recordings 10 years ago to public outrage and nothing was done to change the law, then the only logical conclusion is that the spying was continuing. Shortly after Obama took office he made the spying laws even more wide-sweeping, which also sparked outrage and should have confirmed that the NSA program was never terminated. I'm surprised Snowden put his life on the line to remind us all about the spying, but he nevertheless succeeded in rekindling debate. The only news (which still isn't surprising) is that the NSA was also spying on diplomatic personnel, etc. of other countries.

Just search for "NSA" in the Google News Archives:
https://www.google.com/search?q=NSA&safe=off&hl=en&gl=us&authuser=0&tbm=nws&source=lnt&tbs=ar:1&sa=X&ei=br3VUfW3Aqjm7AbNhYC4CA&ved=0CCMQpwUoBQ&biw=1600&bih=745

You'll see a lot of articles from 2006, including reports that the courts ruled the spying unconstitutional.

I would like to thank everyone who attended. It turned out to be a rather lovely protest. I don't know about you, but I get the best feeling after attending one of these things.