I can't really remember which one of Eden/Lando uses it but this opening is the best Austrian attack Italy can muster, IMO.

I'm seeing a strange version of it in a game where you're playing!

@Cachimbo, not really going to discuss ongoing games....

Bang, bang, orathaic's banhammer came down upon their thread (posts).

eden uses it every time he is italy. it is pretty good but relys on a relatively stupid austria and russia and turkey looking to hurt the austrians as well.

Strikes me as a fairly strong gunboat opening too.

I don't use it EVERY time...

I would give it a 1 in 3 shot at being a successful gunboat opening. All it takes is Germany to go south or Austria to go for Ven and the whole thing goes poof.

And you NEVER stab, we know Eden.

@ Orathaic:
I wasn't suggesting we did. It just struck me that your post must have been "somewhat" related to the events in that game and that's all I meant to point out.

As for me, I'm tempted to say that any time Italy can manage to diplomatically open a way north, it should do so. But I don't think that Austria should be the sole target: Germany is also possibly interesting as a target here, especially if France is in on it.

http://images.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/10130480.jpg

ah fuck it

http://images.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/10130493.jpg

http://images.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/10130683.jpg

and related

http://memegenerator.net/instance/10130754

I find that when italy really goes heavy after austria, it gives turkey and russia a place to go and then they work together and italy just allowed a juggernaut to form...

lol ulytau

@fk: Yeah, but that's why you (as Italy) talk Russia's and Turkey's heads off and get one of them to turn on the other after Austria with you.

That opening sucks. The only outcome is that Austria and Italy will both lose. Austria first and Italy second.

Best Italian strategy is to ally with Turkey and throw armies into Greece. Or Lepanto Turkey through AEG and turn it on AH real quick.

"That opening sucks. The only outcome is that Austria and Italy will both lose. Austria first and Italy second. "

nah, a strong turkey is a problem for italy sure, but a strong russia is an issue for both england and germany.

italy can hold out against one, but the northern powers definitely don't want to see both italy and austria absorbed into the eastern machine...

I also think that R-T works just as well for those two as either I-T or I-R

A/R is the most dangerous in my opinion. I hate I/R unless I am R. Italy can't win that one.

This crusher will result in Turkish fleets in the Med. And there is no way Italy can ever be as quick as Turkey. So I think this is why the opening will always cause a loss, irregardless of how Russia fares.

Eden it is!

And as Russia, I'd be happy to see the Crusher (provided it didn't mean Bohemia went for Galicia) since I could dump Turkey for Italy. Threatening Germany with supported Spring move to Silesia could also do diplomatic wonders in the North.

"That opening sucks. The only outcome is that Austria and Italy will both lose. Austria first and Italy second."
"I hate I/R unless I am R. Italy can't win that one."
"This crusher will result in Turkish fleets in the Med. And there is no way Italy can ever be as quick as Turkey. So I think this is why the opening will always cause a loss, irregardless of how Russia fares."

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=56774#gamePanel

Although I tend to agree that Austria/Russia makes for a ridiculously fucking badass alliance. If I can get the other of AR on board with me from the getgo then it's entirely possible to kill Turkey by the end of 1903 without a Lepanto.

AR is probably the most balanced alliance in the game between partners. Both powers share a weakness in the early game on multiple fronts, but can both neutralize that by working together to keep Turkey bottled up while using the other units to keep their other borders secure; once the early game is done, both partners have a relatively easy-to-attack next target; both powers have a fairly equally tough task at sea; and both seem to have equal shots at a solo.

Italy is quickly becoming my favorite country. I've known about the Crusher for a while, and I've used it in a few gunboats, but the thing I don't like about it is that it's not very flexible. You're committed against Austria from the jump. I'm partial to the Alpine Chicken, m'self.

PE, Austria's move from Trieste in S02 is pretty baffling. You seem to have a real knack for not making many mistakes in a live game but, after looking at a bunch of your games (looking for some examples of the Crusher), I've got to reiterate my point that live games are different beast to non-live games. It's a similar analogy to lightning/non-lightning chess. They both the same game but there are obviously a host of different factors and skills that come into play.

That being said, I like how you use the Crusher and it certainly looks like a formidable opening.

lol, Eden I figured you'd at least bring up a game you had won.

But that was a pretty fun one.

He obviously meant to do *something* with it, because he explicitly built a fleet and moved it to Adriatic Sea (instead of just having a fleet there and accidentally moving somewhere). What did he mean to do? Shit if I know, lol. He didn't talk to me after S01, for obvious reasons...

And I don't think I ever disagreed with the idea that live games are notably different from non-live games in any discussion of the two; I have taken issue with the idea that live games are somehow less of a game compared to non-live games, which I've seen put forth plenty of times.

As for the Crusher -- it requires a lot of diplomatic work, as I very briefly noted earlier in here. Like any attack on Austria as Italy, you have to be really sure that you've got Russia or Turkey on your side instead of both on each other's (ideally both on your side and neither on each other's). If you can keep Russia's and/or Turkey's attention as you carve up Austria, hitting them with several messages back and forth each season, you're probably going to look the more reliable ally to each than the other. You have to keep impressing upon them how valuable you are as an ally because if you half-ass your diplomacy as Italy in an IRT, you are almost certainly going to be next.

@Lando: I figured I would pick one where (a) the Crusher was used; (b) Italy came out on top of an IR; (c) we were both in it; (d) I was Italy; (e) you were Russia; (f) I won. 5/6 ain't bad. ;)

And yeah, that was a good game, I just about shat myself around Warsaw in S12