Forum
A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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Jimbozig (0 DX)
11 Dec 10 UTC
Fantasy Map - Olidip
I have a game on Olidip on this really great map that is starting in 11 hours and still needs two people. If you're iunterested in having fun please join this game: http://www.olidip.net/board.php?gameID=2669
Its a gunboat game. 12 powers.
0 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
10 Dec 10 UTC
You-Create-It: The Greatest Band EVER!
Simple enough: 1. Take any members or solo artists and bring them together to form what YOU think would make the best band ever 2. Band size of 5, with a 1 bass, 1 drummer, at least 2 guitarists, and then the 5th slot can be for whatever, another guitarist, a piano player, lead singer, etc., and at least 3 out of the 5 must be able to sing 3. Give your band a name 4. Give the title of at 5 songs that band "released," at least 1 with lyrics, 6 Rock on! :)
35 replies
Open
MadMarx (36299 D(G))
06 Dec 10 UTC
WACcon 2011, Jan 21st & 22nd‏
Anyone going to this, it's in Seattle? One game Friday night, two games on Saturday, would be good practice for the meeting in Boston this June!
9 replies
Open
freakflag (690 D)
10 Dec 10 UTC
bug
Not a big deal, but I'm in a gunboat game that claims to have an unread message, which I can't access. So basically it's always showing up at the top of my home screen despite the fact that I've entered moves, and obviously there is no message, cause it's a gunboat.
3 replies
Open
nich01as (100 D)
11 Dec 10 UTC
World 5 mintue game
Join http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=44028

It's due to start at 7:10 and is a 5 minute live game but on the world map. We need a lot of people to join so please, join now.
0 replies
Open
principians (881 D)
09 Dec 10 UTC
ADVERTISE YOUR 1vs1 GAMES HERE
Anyone interested in a 1vs1 Juggernaut vs Frankland game?
http://olidip.net/board.php?gameID=2720
6 replies
Open
Happymunda (0 DX)
11 Dec 10 UTC
5 min 1 solt
0 replies
Open
Crazyter (1335 D(G))
20 Nov 10 UTC
"FACE TO FACE WEBDIP TOURNAMENT!!!
Where? When? Cash prizes? Who is interested?
239 replies
Open
Jakomo (146 D)
10 Dec 10 UTC
3 players ally in mediterrenean gunboat
Are there any rules preventing 3 players allying in a 5player gunboat?
Its kind of silly, cause no chance to win.

They never attacked each other and killed me and another player, in the end it was 24 supply centers (3 players) against my 8, after the other guy left.
1 reply
Open
AndyBer (365 D(B))
10 Dec 10 UTC
Public press game - need players
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=43226
3 replies
Open
Helljumper (277 D)
10 Dec 10 UTC
Error Entering orders
I've currently got this problem, that whenever I enter a command that has to do with one certain army, I get an error that looks like this:
alert Parameter 'fromTerrID' set to invalid value '51'.
Any help?
7 replies
Open
Frank (100 D)
10 Dec 10 UTC
site growth
is the site growing? i mean, obviously there are more members each month. but are more games being played this month than last? is there anyway to find out this sort of thing?
9 replies
Open
zoeoz (100 D)
07 Dec 10 UTC
Virtue Theory!
IS virtue theory the correct approach to morality?!
52 replies
Open
Oskar (100 D(S))
10 Dec 10 UTC
Second-Tier Ghost Ranking Game
info below...
5 replies
Open
Intro
Not sure how appropriate this is, but thought I'd introduce myself. I'm new to site and thought I'd drop by. I have played Dip for many years now, the last few online, and came across this site pretty much by accident to be honest. Thought I'd give it a try. Jumped into a couple of games (hopefully) and will play those out whatever else happens. Nothing worse than a game unbalanced by NMRs.
73 replies
Open
Ivo_ivanov (7545 D)
09 Dec 10 UTC
Dunecat in the flesh :)
http://www.toplessrobot.com/dune-cat2.jpg
5 replies
Open
Ivo_ivanov (7545 D)
26 Nov 10 UTC
Good players wanted for a new game
I'm looking to start a couple new games. Anon, 24-48h phases, regular press/map. Anyone who's interested please drop me a line (or below).
111 replies
Open
basvanopheusden (2176 D)
06 Dec 10 UTC
Public press game
We need one player to join this public press game http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=43425
WTA, anon, 25 bet
7 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
08 Dec 10 UTC
Rich + Tax Cuts= More Jobs For Average Americans...What's The WORK On That Equation?
So, if I understand correctly, the Bush tax cuts will be extended now, with the GOP holding to the trickle-down theory from Reaganomics and saying tax cuts from the rich will lead to jobs for the average and poorer Americans. Now, numbers and I? We do NOT get along. Math and I? We've been feuding since Day 1 of preschool. So BEFORE I say this is just the rich getting richer--anyone on good terms with Mr. Math care to explain? Maybe I just calculated Rich+Tax Cuts=Richer Rich incorrectly?
25 replies
Open
pathannarris (599 D)
10 Dec 10 UTC
Handmade Soaps, Great for Christmas Presents.
If you are looking for a great gift idea for your female loved ones, check out these handmade soaps and gift baskets. This company handmakes all their own soaps and spa-like products. And...they are cheap.

www.artemissoapworks.com
2 replies
Open
stratagos (3269 D(S))
08 Dec 10 UTC
Please do not use profanity in this thread.
My word, it would be crass, crude, and impolite!
55 replies
Open
damian (675 D)
09 Dec 10 UTC
LFG: The nth incarnation. (High Quality Game Request Within)
Two seconds to full post.
9 replies
Open
Thucydides (864 D(B))
09 Dec 10 UTC
Who wants to read Thucy's paper about the creation of hip hop?
Cause I'll show it to you if you want. If not you don't have to bother with this thread. Lol.
13 replies
Open
Happymunda (0 DX)
09 Dec 10 UTC
Live game 30 min till start TEXAS FLOOD!
7 replies
Open
Hirsute (161 D)
09 Dec 10 UTC
Replacement player needed
I'm going on vacation and I'll need someone to take over my games (there are four of them). I tried to get all my games finished before I had to go, but some took longer than expected. The fewest units I have in any of the games is 6 (the most is 12). Message me if you're interested and I'll give you more info including my general strategy and alliances in each game.
4 replies
Open
Calmon (674 D)
09 Dec 10 UTC
How to unpause a anonymous game when 1 didn't vote for unpause?
Since the last server problems our game gameID=42532 is paused. 6 vote for unpause and 1 didn't. We can't continue because 1 didn't vote and stuck on "pause" mode.
Is there any solution like auto-delete after some weeks or how is this handled?
1 reply
Open
Silver Wolf (9388 D)
09 Dec 10 UTC
To mods
Sorry to ask this in the forum, but I sent a message through e-mail several days ago with no answer.
The game 42532 is paused since the site had that bug.Since is gunboat, we can't talk, so I ask mods to unpause the game.Thank you :)
0 replies
Open
Rusty (179 D)
09 Dec 10 UTC
Loading Order...
Whenever I open a game, the site loads 'fully' but it stops short of loading the actual orders for the game. I can see the map and send messages, but I can't enter any orders. I have been able to keep up with games by using my iPhone to enter orders while looking at the map on my computer, but I assumed it would fix itself after a day or two. Any ideas? I am also unable to scroll through past maps. I am using Safari, and haven't had any trouble until three days ago.
5 replies
Open
SkitchNM (100 D)
09 Dec 10 UTC
Question about pausing
For a vote to pause, is it majority or does it have to by unanimous?
3 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
04 Dec 10 UTC
"What Do You Read, My Lord?" "Words, Words, Words--And Plautus, He's FABOO!"
After that REALLY EXCELLENT discussion on "What Is Art?" that we had (thanks to all that participated, by the way, even though I disagreed with many points raised I DO respect your opinions) I got to thinking about all the books *I* love, MY art...and we have so many debates tracing back to what we've read, WHO we've read...I thought I'd pose the question--Favorite Novelist? Favorite Poet? Favorite Playwright? Favorite Philosopher? And then a Fifth...so, WebDip--what do you read?
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obiwanobiwan (248 D)
08 Dec 10 UTC
@Putin33:

Nietzsche states that one must "go under" and "let go"...that's not Buddhist?

He advocates for the Dionysian--ie, an embracing of change, a vERY Buddhist idea--over the Appolonian--ie, that things should be built to a great degree, a la the Judeo-Christian belief in an ultimate God, ultimate rules, ultimate destinies, ultimate judgement, ultimate consequences, ultimate good, ultimate evil, etc.



He's not EXACTLY Buddhist, but to call him a polar opposite misses A LOT of the point he's trying to make...we need a will to power and control so that we may let go, we let go of life, but we take control of it only insofar as to color it with our own creative ideas--NOT to have the sort of control you seem to be implying, THAT sort of control is far more Appolonian, and what Nietzsche explicitly said he wanted to strike back against.

Batman vs. The Joker, Immanuel Kant vs. Friedrich Nietzsche.
fiedler (1293 D)
08 Dec 10 UTC
@putin: oh dear... fraid I will have to AGREE with obiwan there!, I think you are greatly simplifying buddhism, it's a great deal wiser than you present it, the budhist ideals are indeed IDEALS, and recognised as rarely achieved in practice. The yin-yang nature is recognised and accepted.

@obiwan: I will just say that just because Ntz once wrote something, that does not mean it is part of his main theme, or his fundamental philosophy. We all say a great many things, especially you ;)

to be continued when time allows.....
fiedler (1293 D)
08 Dec 10 UTC
and yes nietzsches central theme of hatred of weakness is one half of the nazi creed, the other half being the idea that their is 1 'right' opinion - see Art thread ;)
Putin33 (111 D)
08 Dec 10 UTC
"Because where Nietzsche hates the religion and the Judeo-Christian religious and moral concepts overall, he DOES quite often give respect and even credit to the Jews as a race."

Yes, it's precisely as you described it above. "Watch out, they're a crafty bunch." Respecting the capabilities of your enemy does not make them any less an enemy. Nietzsche says the following: "That the Jews could right now have the ascendency, in fact literally the supremacy, over Europe if they wanted it, or if they were forced to take it as the anti-Semites seem to be after, is certain."

It seems pretty clear-cut that his "praise" of the Jews is more of a "they can take over if they so desire, they're that powerful". Obviously, in order to implement this kind of moral revolution, the Jews in Nietzsche's mind had to be powerful. Nietzsche also repeatedly calls the Jews a 'nation', comparing them to Germans and the Chinese. Kind of hard to separate out the race/religion question if he's doing this. Now, he elsewhere says they are more res facta than res nata, but he still treats them as res nata.

"Yet the priests are, as is notorious, the worst enemies — why? Because they are the weakest. Their weakness causes their hate to expand into a monstrous and sinister shape, a shape which is most crafty and most poisonous. The really great haters in the history of the world have always been priests, who are also the cleverest haters — in comparison with the cleverness of priestly revenge, every other piece of cleverness is practically negligible. Human history would be too fatuous for anything were it not for the cleverness imported into it by the weak — take at once the most important instance. All the world’s efforts against the "aristocrats," the "mighty," the "masters," the "holders of power", are negligible by comparison with what has been accomplished against those classes by the Jews."

So the Jews are an example of weak, slave race, and are crafty and sinister and responsible for all the world's ills. But that's not anti-Semitism because he doesn't explicitly say they should be exterminated - at least word for word - although he praises the Romans' efforts in trying to get rid of them, and has no problem with extermination as such.

Nietzsche says:

"A thinker who has the future of Europe at heart, will, in all his perspectives concerning the future, calculate upon the Jews, as he will calculate upon the Russians, as above all the surest and likeliest factors in the great play and battle of forces."

So in essence, one must consider the power of the Jews just like Germany must consider the power of the Russians. Many a Sovietologist described the Soviet 'enemy' as a powerful force that would surpass the US if they did not do something drastic. This is the same kind of thought.

Furthermore and interestingly, Nietzsche talks about the triumph of the Jews as a 'blood poisoning', because of the intermixing of races.

"Let us face facts: the people have triumphed—or the slaves, the mob, the herd, whatever you wish to call them—and if the Jews brought it about, then no nation ever had a more universal mission on this earth. The lords are a thing of the past, and the ethics of the common man is completely triumphant. I don't deny that this triumph might be looked upon as a kind of blood poisoning, since it has resulted in a mingling of the races, but there can be no doubt that the intoxication has succeeded. The 'redemption' of the human race (from the lords, that is) is well under way; everything is rapidly becoming Judaized, or Christianized, or mob-ized—the word makes no difference."

And to any who believe that Nietzsche did not express himself in explicitly racial terms, did not oppose race-mixing and did not want to preserve the supremacy of the 'Aryan' race, I have this.

"In the Latin malus (which I place side by side with m e l a V ) the vulgar man can be distinguished as the dark-coloured, and above all as the black-haired ("hic niger est"), as the pre-Aryan inhabitants of the Italian soil, whose complexion formed the clearest feature of distinction from the dominant blondes, namely, the Aryan conquering race: … good, noble, clean, but originally the blonde-haired man in contrast to the dark black-haired aboriginals. The Celts, if I may make a parenthetical statement, were throughout a blonde race; and it is wrong to connect, as Virchow still connects, those traces of an essentially dark-haired population which are to be seen on the more elaborate ethnographical maps of Germany, with any Celtic ancestry or with any admixture of Celtic blood: in this context, it is rather the pre-Aryan population of Germany which surges up in these districts. The same is true substantially of the whole of Europe: in point of fact, the subject race has finally again obtained the upper hand, in complexion and the shortness of the skull, and perhaps in the intellectual and social qualities. Who can guarantee that modern democracy, still more modern anarchy, and indeed that tendency to the "Commune," the most primitive form of society, which is now common to all the Socialists in Europe, does not in its real essence signify a monstrous reversion – and that the conquering and master race – the Aryan race, is not also becoming inferior physiologically?"










obiwanobiwan (248 D)
08 Dec 10 UTC
fiedler...you TOTALLY missed my meaning in the Art thread if you think my point is that there should be one correct answer to all of art.

Hamlet dies in Hamlet.

THAT is not debatable...we can argue the WHY, HOW good or bad the death is, and the themes, but that he dies is a NECESSARY ground rule before the discussion begins, otherwise I say "Hamlet died because of his indec--" and you respond "No, I think he lived and lived happily ever after" adn abgemacht says "You're BOTH off, Shakespeare clearly hints Hamlet left Denmark to live in a trailer in Jackson, Mississippi with Elvis and Xenu!"

;)

I don't care HOW you interpret "Hamlet," that's fine, PLEASE interpret it differently, that's the fun and beauty of art, creating your OWN ideas...

But if you say Hamlet lives at the end, or that three striaght-line scratches on the sidewalk constitute a NOVEL...sorry, that IS wrong. A novel can be MANY things, but THAT just isn't one of them. :)



Also, Nietzsche's hatred of weakness differs from the Nazis', Nietzsche hated what he thought was a weakness of character and mental ability, ie, he hated a slave morality and wanted masters, people with an Ubermenschen, think-for-yourself mentality who had strong personalities and weren't submissive.

The Nazis hated what they saw as BIOLOGICAL weakness adn RACIAL weakness, and as facism REQUIRES that you submit to a supreme leader, and Nietzsche went so far as to call nearly any state a "poison," you're going to be hard-pressed to say that Nietzsche's vision and idea of weakness was the same as the Nazis.
Putin33 (111 D)
08 Dec 10 UTC
This 'letting go' is meaningless without context. Nietzsche wants to 'let go' of moral constraints. Buddhism wants to 'let go' of the 'will', to let go of desire, of struggle against the current. Nietzsche wants people to impose their will on the world. Buddhism wants people to discard all desires.

Saying Buddhism is grand and amazing does not help me. What do the Four Noble Truths say? What does the Eight-Fold Path say? Does the former not say that life is suffering, and that desire is the root of this suffering? How is this seemingly fundamental tenet of Buddhism in any way compatible with Nietzsche's worldview?
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
08 Dec 10 UTC
@Putin33:

Yes, he DOES treat the Jews as a threat at times...but I'd argue THAT is actually a compliment.

He likes power, he cares about power, at least in one sense...the fact that he acknowledges the Jews ARE powerful is a testament to them.

I'm not trying to say Nietzsche went around hugging Jews left and right, he probably did have conflicting feelings on them, he was raised in a VERY Anti-Semetic culture, his mother and sister were huge Anti-Semites, and so was one-time friend Richard Wagner.

However, it should be noted he left Wagner, spoke out against Anti-Semitism, and thought enough of the Jews to treat them as though they were at least, power-wise, equals--and that was more than a lot of Europe was willing to treat them as and FAR away from the Nazis' saying Jews were worthless and weak and scum and had to be exterminated for these.

If I were to give my BEST guess as to how Nietzsche felt on the Jews, I'd say he saw them as being powerful, that they mattered, and while he might not have liked them per se he certainly gave them RESPECT insofar as he didn't think they were weak and deserved to be exterminated, and the fact he gave them respect, grudgingly or even spitefully or no, he STIL gave them respect...

Which he didn't give Anti-Semites.

Grudgingly respecting a culture and saying "There's a LOT about them I don't like, but they ARE worthwhile" (not to mention human beings) is a lot different from saying "Burn, baby, burn..."

And not being a fan of the Jews in most respects doesn't make one an automatic Anti-Semite, people have many layers and are not so simple...
Putin33 (111 D)
08 Dec 10 UTC
"Nietzsche hated what he thought was a weakness of character and mental ability, ie, he hated a slave morality and wanted masters, people with an Ubermenschen, think-for-yourself mentality who had strong personalities and weren't submissive.

The Nazis hated what they saw as BIOLOGICAL weakness adn RACIAL weakness, and as facism REQUIRES that you submit to a supreme leader, and Nietzsche went so far as to call nearly any state a "poison," you're going to be hard-pressed to say that Nietzsche's vision and idea of weakness was the same as the Nazis."

Nietzsche has as his role model the Roman Cesars and Napoleon, and he loathed democracy (he said this over and over). The Nazis represented his ideal, or at least weren't far from his ideal of an aristocratic, men-of-action elite who sought to dominate and not be submissive and did not shrink from struggle, conflict, war, and embraced the creative power of human cruelty while discarding the unnatural restraints of morality and law. Indeed, it'd be hard to come up with a group or movement that did not more fully reflect Nietzsche's ideal. He also spoke repeatedly of biological weakness of races, quite explicitly, and part of his critique of democracy and egalitarianism was this mixing of races and the weakening of the conqueror-race. How is this so different from Nazism again?
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
08 Dec 10 UTC
And on Buddhism and discarding desire...I actually have a question about that:

Isn't the goal of ridding oneself of all desire...technically a desire ITSELF?

"I desire to cease all desires." Really, that's a real question--how does THAT work, I'm just curious, because that's always bothered me about Buddhism...
Putin33 (111 D)
08 Dec 10 UTC
I'm not a Buddhist, so I have no idea as to how to explain its internal contradictions. All I know is the basic ideas as they lay them out.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
08 Dec 10 UTC
It's different as Nietzsche didn't say "Burn the Jews adn the Gypsies and Gays..." AND he stated repeatedly he hated THE STATE! He was HUGELY anti-nationalist...it was a great part of the reason he left Wagner as a friend!

So even if I grant that he thought people were biologically different--which I'm not sure of but I'll grant for the moment, many people DID hold such views at that time, so all in context, again--the fact he NEVER said "exterminate them!" when he so easily could have (it probably would ahve made his books sell better in Anti-Semetic Germany) and HATED the idea of a state at all, let alone a militarist state, LET ALONE a totalitarian, HUGE state...

Three big strikes against calling Nietzsche a Nazi-prototype right off the top of my head.

What about Caesar and Napoleon, you ask? He values not their empires, but the fact that they SEIZED CONROL, that they drove themselves and acted as few otehrs could, and that they were more powerful than others...where he saw wishy-washiness in Europe and democracy (Plato did too...) Nietzsche saw a will to power in them, their will to be something great, to at least TRY and be great, and NOT mediocre, as he saw democracy (as did Plato) ie, settle down and settle for mediocrity via a compomise.
Putin33 (111 D)
08 Dec 10 UTC
"but I'd argue THAT is actually a compliment."

So present-day conspiracy theories which claim that Jews are behind virtually everything that goes in the world, those are 'compliments'? They're not anti-Semitic? Are the Protocols of the Elders of Zion anti-Semitic? They do essentially the same thing.

The Nazis believed the Jews had undue power and influence in Germany (perhaps this was complimentary?). That's one of the main reasons why they were targeted. They were part of this worldview Bolshevik conspiracy to dominate the world.

Hitler said in Mein Kampf "In Russian Bolshevism we must see Jewry's twentieth century effort to take world dominion unto itself"

And Nietzsche did say the Jews were a weak or inferior people - definitely not a 'clean conqueror race' - they represented the 'herd', the 'common man'. The problem was they were cunning enough to have their (what he called 'poisonous') ideas of slave morality triumph.

And if he didn't think they should be exterminated, why did he praise the Romans attacks on them as justified? What would Nietzsche have against extermination anyway, considering his love of conquest, cruelty, domination, and violence and abhorrence of moral restraints?

obiwanobiwan (248 D)
08 Dec 10 UTC
"definitely not a 'clean conqueror race'"

Then how do you make the case that he's trying to say Jews are a threat that MUST be exterminated if you just admitted that he says they're not a conquering race, that they are, as he calls them, a herd, a SLAVE-morality culture.

Not MASTERS, but SLAVES...

Hardly sounds like he's saying "Burn 'em all now, lads, or those slaves, those herds, those commen men who by my logic have no initiative and don't care for conquering and are nothing like my champions Caesar and Napoleon...yep, they're going to take over!"

The ONLY place where you can make the argument Nietzsche warns against the Jews "taking over" is with their morality, which:

1. He blames the Christians for plenty as well, so that's not attacking a people, its attacking a faith and/or a mode of life
2. Does NOT coincide with the Nazi idea that they were taking over the nation in a physical, economic sense,
3. Is perfectly fine to say; agree or not, it's perfectly fine to say that a moral code that someone finds repugnant is taking hold...that, again, does NOT match up with "burn them" so much as "those morals are GARBAGE."

Any way you add it up, Nietzsche has strong opinions, yes, and certainly wasn't a Jew-hugger--but he aso wasn't clammoring for them to be sent to camps...

(Does anyone besides me on this site LIKE Nietzsche, by the wway? It seems like it's always just me utilizing his ideas or defending them...though I suppose that one vs. the rest of the herd idea is in keeping with the man and his ideas...) ;)
Putin33 (111 D)
08 Dec 10 UTC
"It's different as Nietzsche didn't say "Burn the Jews adn the Gypsies and Gays..." AND he stated repeatedly he hated THE STATE! He was HUGELY anti-nationalist...it was a great part of the reason he left Wagner as a friend!"

This is all rather flimsy. All the Nietzcheans can hang their hat on is this idea that he didn't explicitly call for the extermination of the Jews. But this kind of idea flowed logically from everything else he said, and was but a loose end that National Socialism tied together.

As I'm growing tired of repeating myself and I think we're going in circles, here's what Nietzsche says.

1-Jews hate mankind, are a weak slave-race whose vindictiveness has poisoned humanity with a slave morality that values the weak of the strong. "These carriers of the leveling and retributive instincts, these descendants of every European and extra-European slave-dom, and especially of the pre-Aryan populations, represent human retrogression most flagrantly." Therefore Non-Aryan races, slave-races, represent degeneracy and human retrogression.
2 - The history of the world from the time of the ancients to the present can be reduced to a struggle between the 'classical ideal' of Rome vs the slave morality of Israel, which he says for a time was represented by what he calls the 'ecumenical synagogue' - the (Catholic) Church. This battle is becoming more and more intense as time goes on. Rome rightly viewed Israel as a monstrosity that hated all of mankind, and represented a threat against the aristocratic ideals of Rome, and thus sought to destroy Israel.
3 - Moral restraints on the animal-like impulses of man, on man's propensity for violence, on its will to dominate, lead to degeneracy, and reduce the creative power of man.
4 - Nietzsche calls for the 'breeding of a new caste (of Ubermensch, elites) to rule Europe'.


And somehow this is all so very different than what the Nazis thought and did, because he did not say word for word - kill the Jews.

As for this idea that somehow Nietzsche hated the state, I wouldn't confuse his dislike for the modern form of the state with a dislike for authority or a hierarchy of power. He repeatedly uses the phrase "anarchist dogs" to refer to anarchists, and claims that epitomize the herd-animal morality that is poisoning Europe. He disliked the modern form of the state, because he believed it served the masses - "The history of the state is the history of the egoism of the masses and of the blind desire to exist". He did not oppose authority. He would preferred the ancient system of city-states, most of which were anything if not 'totalitarian' (a meaningless word, in my view). The extent to which Nietzsche was "anti-state" or "anti-nationalist" was the extent to which he loathed anything that uplifted the masses, or catered to the mass will.

But he also invoke nationalist mythology and rhetoric when it served his needs.

"The Latin word bonus [good] I believe I can explicate as “the warrior,” provided that I am correct in tracing bonus back to an older word duonus (compare bellum [war] = duellum [war] = duen-lum, which seems to me to contain that word duonus). Hence, bonus as a man of war, of division (duo), as a warrior. We see what constituted a man’s “goodness” in ancient Rome. What about our German word “Gut” [good] itself? Doesn’t it indicate “den Göttlichen” [the god-like man], the man of “göttlichen Geschlechts” [“the generation of gods]”? And isn’t that identical to the people’s (originally the nobles’) name for the Goths? "

The Germans are "god-like men", eh?

As for Rome, he loved everything about the Romans. He says: "The Romans were the strongest and most noble people who ever lived. Every vestige of them, every least inscription, is a sheer delight provided we are able to read the spirit behind the writing. "
Every vestige of them. How does that not include the Empire?
Putin33 (111 D)
08 Dec 10 UTC
McBry certainly expressed an admiration for Nietzsche, don't know why you think you're the only one.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
08 Dec 10 UTC
Nietzsche certainly loved the Romans and the Empire.

He also loved Napoleon, as you've said.
And the Greeks.
And as stated in "Beyond Good and Evil," the granduer, if not teh message, of the Old Testament and, by extension, the Jewish people insofar as he saw them as being weak in their morals but strong in their convictions.

Essentially it boils down to, your points and mine...

Nietzsche HATED the Jewish morality, DOES think a slave morality is a step backward and the Master morality of the Greek heroes and Roman generals and Napoleon are steps foward...but as much as he hated WHAT the Jews (and Christians, let's be fair here, it isn't as if he targeted the Jews the way the Nazis did, ie, singling them out...he uses their name because it starts with them and to list "Jews, Christians, Muslims, Catholics, Mormons..." and all types that would have fallen under the umbrella of his distaste would have been cumbersome) said, he praised and even admired HOW they stuck to it, ie, so very doggedly.

Nietzsche LOVES the idea of power in some sense, we both are agreed there.

In the Greek heroes and tragedies he sees individual power and strength.
In the Roman and Napoleonic Empires he sees classical stength, ie, single men taking hold of millions of "herdsmen" and seizing the world.
And in the Jewish culture/ethnicity/"nation" he sees the strength of belief in something, EVEN if he doesn't believe a word of what they say.

Kierkegaard who, again, shares many of Nietzsche's ideals, albeit with a FAR more upbeat and religion-friendly tone, makes the assertion that it is a sign of greatness to take a LEAP OF FAITH.



Nietzsche holds that view as well, the idea that we should have SOMETHING to light our internal fires...something to light our will to power and give us incentive to become an Ubermensch or, at least, strive to be stronger, however you wish to take that term.

And I'd venture the opinion Nietzsche's being SARCASTIC in that passage where he states Germans are "god-like" for AT LEAST two very pertinent reasons:

1. MANY of his books--"Beyond Good and Evil" comes to mind--features him passing often-uncomplimentary and even occasionally scathing judgment on Germany

2. THIS IS THE MAN WHO IS FAMOUS FOR WRITING "GOD IS DEAD!" XD Do you REALLY believe that such a man is going to invoke an argument rooted in the DIVINE, adn do so SERIOUSLY, to make a race he's criticized out to be supermen, especially when he gives his criterion for the Ubermensch elsewhere and it includes a seperation from the idea of nationalism adn state, ie, being a true individual, arguably an anarchist in some ways...

I'm sorry, but while I can certainly concede Nietzsche had mixed messages on the Jews and he can often sound as if he's advocating for your version of his agenda, to view Nietzsche that was is to take everything he says literally and at face-value...

That is, to misread him and take a heavily-sarcastic and complex author (you can decide for yourself if that "complexity" equates to his being "good," I won't be so audacious to proclaim him to be a good author, although you certainly know that's my stance) and, in doing so, make a possibly-fatal mistake...

Fatal if you were living in 1935 Germany whilst men at the top were reading him and twisting him in that manner...
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
08 Dec 10 UTC
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_Friedrich_Nietzsche#Nietzsche.27s_criticisms_of_anti-Semitism_and_nationalism

In Ecce Homo (1888), he criticized the "German nation", its "will to power (to Empire, to Reich)", thus underscoring an easy misinterpretation of the Wille zur Macht, the conception of Germans as a "race", the "anti-Semitic way of writing history", or of writing "history conform to the German Empire," and stigmatized "nationalism, this national nevrosis from which Europe is sick", this "small politics" [18]. Nietzsche heavily criticized his sister's husband, Bernhard Förster, and his sister, speaking harshly against the "anti-Semitic canaille.": "After I read the name Zarathustra in the anti-Semitic Correspondence my forbearance came to an end. I am now in a position of emergency defense against your spouse's Party. These accursed anti-Semite deformities shall not sully my ideal!!''"


He seems pretty adamant in his hatred of Anti-Semitism and nationalism THERE...aside from the fact that they DID sully his ideal for a good half-century (longer if that current misunderstanding has carried through to the present day) that seems a decent bit of evidence...
mcbry (439 D)
08 Dec 10 UTC
yeah, if it wasn't clear, obi, I think Nietzsche is pretty awesome. You're making a valiant defense, but I don't really want to get roped into a long debate about Nazis or race mixing. I have already outlined my views on that question and I think it's sufficient. In point of fact, there is quite a bit in Nietzsche that I have difficulty rationalizing but I'm not one to throw out the baby with the bathwater. And indeed, every semi-significant philosopher and his or her mother since Nietzsche has felt the need to deal with him explicitly in one way or another.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
09 Dec 10 UTC
Fair enough, mcbry...I was mostly responding to Putin33, but yeah, I don't wish to engage in a longe debate about this forever, either...

I just wanted to see who people read, where we're all coming from...
fiedler (1293 D)
09 Dec 10 UTC
ok, I give up arguing with you obiwan, you don't really listen, you just talk, do you really think it's constructive to do 95% of the talking in an argument? to carpet-bomb with so much text? Is that the best way to educate yourself?

Anyway, my list:
-Favorite Novelist: dunno.
-Favorite Poet: Don't know much poetry but: John Dunn, William Blake, Stephenson.
-Favorite Playwright: Shakespeare i guess
-Favorite Philosopher: Arthur Schopenhaeur, Montaigne, Epicurus.
-Favorite Fifth/Other: Ayrton Senna.

and just a really cool quote:

Christianity - and that is its greatest merit - has somewhat mitigated that brutal germanic love of war, but it could not destroy it. Should that subduing talisman, the cross, be shattered, the frenzied madness of the ancient warriors, that insane Berserk rage of which Nordic bards have spoken and sung so often, will once more burst into flame. This talisman is fragile, and the day will come when it will collapse miserably.

Then the ancient stony gods will rise from the forgotten debris and rub the dust of a thousand years from their eyes, and finally Thor with his giant hammer will jump up and smash the Gothic cathedrals. (...)

Do not smile at my advice -- the advice of a dreamer who warns you against Kantians, Fichteans, and philosophers of nature. Do not smile at the visionary who anticipates the same revolution in the realm of the visible as has taken place in the spiritual. Thought precedes action as lightning precedes thunder. German thunder is of true Germanic character; it is not very nimble, but rumbles along ponderously. Yet, it will come and when you hear a crashing such as never before has been heard in the world's history, then you know that the German thunderbolt has fallen at last. At that uproar the eagles of the air will drop dead, and lions in the remotest deserts of Africa will hide in their royal dens. A play will be performed in Germany which will make the French Revolution look like an innocent idyll."
- Heinrich Heine. (1797 - 1856)
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
09 Dec 10 UTC
Nice quote.

But I DO listen to you...I simply won't capiotulate and be convinced without what I consider ample reason; ask abgemacht or TGM or Draugnar, I have been known to compromise and meet on some points with people occasionally--I'm simply not in the habit of agreeing to sound polite is all.

Successful persuasion should feel and come as a victory, not a nicety...and so I'd say to agree with you siomple to agree with you when, in fact, I disagree still...

To do so would be disrespectful to you, to me, and to the art importance of debate itself.

(See, folks--THAT is how you take a simple sentence, overcomplicate it with flowery words, and make it appear even more affable and pompous-sounding that it already might have been...what, I can't poke fun at myself?) :p


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