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canute (0 DX)
11 Aug 08 UTC
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=4930
England and i (Russia) built fleets in a no fleet game- can we PLEASE REVERSE THE TURN?????
29 replies
Open
Metternich471 (137 D)
11 Aug 08 UTC
silly question
I have a question on game mechanics; I can't find an answer anywhere on the site.
If your orders are saved but not finalized, are they still executed if the deadline is reached, or does everything hold? Thanks.
8 replies
Open
supernazer (100 D)
10 Aug 08 UTC
Wannabe Diplomats wanted...
Low pot game, which is newbie friendly... but no less agressive!
1 reply
Open
Ben e Boy (101 D)
11 Aug 08 UTC
Can an admin please double-check the order history?
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=5017&orderText=on

As France, I'm absolutely sure I changed my order for A(Bur)-Mun to A(Bur)-Mar before I finalised. The order history disagrees. Obviously this is terrible for my relations with Germany and therefore affects the game substantially. Is there a log of every database submission that can be checked? Or is there perhaps a bug with finalising is a changed order hasn't been re-updated?
6 replies
Open
MadMarx (36299 D(G))
11 Aug 08 UTC
Stevelers, orathaic & diminishing returns alumni
Any of you want to do that rematch we discussed? I'm ready, just let me know if any of you are... though how about we ante up a more reasonable amount, maybe 143?
1 reply
Open
cteno4 (100 D)
10 Aug 08 UTC
Press in a no-press game
What's the proper way to deal with this? It's happened in one of my no-press games and although the press seems to have ended in 1902 or so it's still left me at a severely compromised position.
12 replies
Open
Gobbledydook (1389 D(B))
11 Aug 08 UTC
1001 Arabian Nights
Well, here it is:
a 1001-pot WTA set up with 48-hour phases.
You need more time to tell stories...
Anyone can join, so long as they have 143 points...143 x 7 = 1001!
7 replies
Open
Rait (10151 D(S))
06 Aug 08 UTC
Observation
I've noticed massive amount of draws recently & the number seems to rise all the time. I'm especially frustrated if this thing happens to WTA games for no obvious reasons.

It seems to be a new business model & way to beat out DP-s from 3-4 victims. Whenever game reaches to the stage where 3-4 players have remained, suddenly they ask for draw, often with no good reason (no long held stalemate lines or anything) - simply the game has become more complicated than taking empty SC-s next to You or ganging up with one of Your allies to another neighbor. So, the game ends at the stage where it is about to become the most interesting - more diplomacy, more intrigues, false promises, 'unfortunate mistakes', teasing, stabbing Your former allies etc. I really don't get it.

This has brought me to conclusion that it's simply an easy way to collect points - not multiaccounting, not metagaming, not abusing the re-supply of 100 'beginners' diplomacy points, but simply starting (often medium to high buy-in) game with the clear aim of ending it with a draw if You have lasted more than 7-10 years. It doesn't give You the jackpot, but it definitely earns You a decent interest.
44 replies
Open
nitish (2087 D(S))
11 Aug 08 UTC
Draw Request - Speed Racer.
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=4758

I'm Italy, and I agree to the draw; France, Austria, and England should post their acceptance.
4 replies
Open
ava2790 (232 D(S))
11 Aug 08 UTC
Who's up for a superfast game?
We agree to finish diplomacy phases in 15 minutes and retreats/builds phases in 5 minutes.

Pot - 103
7 replies
Open
Rubix314 (172 D)
09 Aug 08 UTC
Rules help
i've seen many people have two territories support each other when they have nothing else to do. does this actually help? or is it the same as having each one holding by itself?
4 replies
Open
flashman (2274 D(G))
07 Aug 08 UTC
Game turn times... Fast, Normal, Slow
I would very much like to see a feature that allowed the turn time to be adjusted by the players after a game has started.

For example, we set up a very fast game for one hour moves and get through perhaps six years in a session and then agree to slow the game down to give people a chance to rest, work, sleep etc...

It could then be sped up again if required and so on.
11 replies
Open
MadMarx (36299 D(G))
05 Aug 08 UTC
Draw request - No Press 23!
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=4362

I agree to the draw. England, Germany and Turkey have agreed in the global forum and should confirm here shortly.
56 replies
Open
Centurian (3257 D)
08 Aug 08 UTC
Fast Game? When do I sleep?
Can we vary phases according to peoples schedules?
8 replies
Open
alex_spro (284 D)
08 Aug 08 UTC
Support Hold question
Let's say I own st. petersburg and moscow. If I support hold moscow from st. petersburg, and do the same from moscow to st. petersburg, will this work? Like if I don't know which one they will hit, so I would be covered either way, or will these cancel eachother out?
5 replies
Open
Wombat (722 D)
10 Aug 08 UTC
Join Game!
Game name "101 pot game"

101 per person, ppsc
3 replies
Open
MajorTom (4417 D)
09 Aug 08 UTC
Precisly When Does an Agreement to Draw Become Binding?
I think it is very important to derive a more concrete and univeral definision to apply from here on out.

In my mind there are 3 possiblities:
1. When the draw is agreed upon by all in the global tab
2. When the draw is posted and agreed upon by all in the forum
3. When Kestas puts the draw request through
16 replies
Open
Maica (145 D)
09 Aug 08 UTC
A game for newbies
http://www.phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=5077

Lord Moldy Butt, a faster game for newbies. 12 hour turns, PPSC
3 replies
Open
Alan3 (1097 D)
09 Aug 08 UTC
Please draw the game In Memory of Marcus Tullius Cicero
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=4672

France is requesting the draw.
Germany, Italy, Russia and Turkey will confirm below.
4 replies
Open
Croaker (370 D)
08 Aug 08 UTC
Question on CD and draws
What happens when all players go CD in a game?

The reason I ask is that there have been a lot of draw requests. What happens if players simply quit entering orders rather than nagging kestas for the draw?

In particular, those games where players are whining about the unfairness of life and want to restart the game. I'd say "You can pick your friends, but you can't pick your family and phpDiplomacy opponents". Just like face-to-face diplomacy.
9 replies
Open
Feckless Clod (777 D)
08 Aug 08 UTC
Team Variant - Grab Your Partners
2 vs 2 vs 2 vs 1, PPSC, 24 hour phases, pot to be established by consensus.
Teams will be determined before game start, based on specific individual players, rather than countries. Details below.
62 replies
Open
Ed Poon (100 D)
08 Aug 08 UTC
Variant Games
I'm interested in setting up a team game but not sure what the fairest breakdown is. I was thinking Eng-Fra vs Ger-Ita-Aus vs Rus-Tur. To anyone who has played in team games, I'd like to hear your opinoins concerning the best set up. Two rules I would like applied are communicating with teammates only, and no alliances between teams (including blind supports). Thoughts?
8 replies
Open
Treefarn (6094 D)
09 Aug 08 UTC
Short Lived States
I stumbled across this Wikipedia entry and thought some folks here might find it interesting. How many did you know?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Short-lived_states
0 replies
Open
bflynn (146 D)
09 Aug 08 UTC
101 - pot game
Just started a new 101-pot game called 101 pot game :P

points/per supply centre

please join
0 replies
Open
anlari (8640 D)
04 Aug 08 UTC
Copyright
From the wikipedia article 'Internet Diplomacy':

Intellectual Property

The Diplomacy game is in copyright in most of the world, and in addition, Hasbro holds a trademark in the name. None of the implementations in this article hold a license from Hasbro or from Allan Calhamer. Since Scrabulous has been removed from Facebook, there is a concern that Hasbro may pursue other unlicensed Facebook implementations of their games.



Are we infringing any copyright laws?
Feckless Clod (777 D)
04 Aug 08 UTC
Shhh!
Gobbledydook (1389 D(B))
04 Aug 08 UTC
phpDiplomacy is an open source, multiplayer, web based implementation of the turn based strategy game Diplomacy by Avalon Hill, in which you have to try and conquer Europe. To win you have to be strategic and diplomatic, making deals and alliances with other players, and stabbing them in the back when it suits you best.


It did say that it was based on the game by AVALON HILL, which is the company which holds the copyright for Diplomacy.
So it does not infringe the rights of the whatever game maker.
flashman (2274 D(G))
04 Aug 08 UTC
Not sure the logic holds there Gobble... Saying a thing does not make it legal.
DrOct (219 D(B))
04 Aug 08 UTC
Avalon Hill is owned by Wizards of the Coast, which is owned by Hasbro if I'm not mistaken.
anlari (8640 D)
04 Aug 08 UTC
Mentioning their name or their subsidiary's name does not make it a license or mean they've given consent though..

Then again, this whole idea of licensing a game is kind of annoying. They might as well license chess or backgammon........
GinaMarie (109 D)
04 Aug 08 UTC
They would if they could... a few years ago Microsoft tried to trademark words such as "Windows" and "Encyclopedia." They failed, but it didn't stop them from trying.
The PhpDiplomacy implementation almost certainly treads on the copyright. Hasbro could send a cease & desist order this afternoon and there would be nothing anyone could do but comply. Well, until the game was able to implement variants, anyway. Most of the variant forms aren't covered by Hasbro, but might be by their individual creators.
Withnail160 (1204 D)
04 Aug 08 UTC
anlari
Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your point of view), you can absolutely license a game if you invested it (or can otherwise prove that it is in some way "intellectual property")

Clearly this is not possible with Chess or Backgammon (although I'm sure someone has treid). There are time limits on such licences/copyrights etc, as with any IP protection schemes. I think it might be 50 years with the possibility of extending under certain circumstances...any IPR lawyers here?
Withnail160 (1204 D)
04 Aug 08 UTC
sorry - invented it, not invested...doh!
Katsarephat (100 D)
04 Aug 08 UTC
I suppose this would apply to the D&D thing I was thinking of trying to implement on Facebook? If Wizards of the Coast is owned by Hasbro...

Most unfortunate...
Ivo_ivanov (7545 D)
04 Aug 08 UTC
Well, apart from all the legal technicalities, two points are key when deciding whether something is infingement or not:
1. Does the 'accused' actions generate any sort of direct or indirect gains (which is the case with Facebook)
2. Does the 'accused' actions inflict any direct or indirect damage to the owner of the IPRs

So, this site should be very much ok :)

To give an example
Braveheart (2408 D(S))
05 Aug 08 UTC
I actually purchased the board game to be able to play face to face, thanks to this site. And i'm prepared to testify!!

Testify that the blooy piece that come with the new version are pathetic bits of cardboard and difficult to tell apart. Shame on you Hasbro!!
Rait (10151 D(S))
05 Aug 08 UTC
If anyone is interested to buy a real board game, then I would suggest the Avalon Hill 1999 version with metal pieces. This is the version I bought via E-bay about 5 years ago & I'm still quite happy with it (compared to all the other sets I'm aware of).
TinTin (0 DX)
05 Aug 08 UTC
diplomacy the game may be copyrighted but i doubt that this extends to phpdip.
check it out
kestasjk (95 DMod(P))
05 Aug 08 UTC
I would have thought Hasbro would be pleased about their games being advertised and promoted for free online, but the Scrabulous affair shows otherwise :-(

But yes we probably do violate some sort of copyright, if Scrabulous was we certainly are. :-( Legally we're in the wrong, but morally I honestly think we're doing the owners of Diplomacy a lot of good

At least we're not making money out of it, though I am worried about becoming associated with PLAYdiplomacy which has just added premium accounts (which allow premium features like "turns move forward when everyone finalizes" to paying members)

Either way we're too small for Hasbro to care, unlike Scrabulous, and we're open source so Hasbro would have to play whack-the-mole with online Diplomacy communities
ldrut (674 D)
07 Aug 08 UTC
As best I understand (having once tried to negotiate with Avalon Hill for moderating rights to another of their games) copyright does not prevent you from playing a moderated game or from running one, for fee or not. It does prevent you from publishing any of the copyrighted materials which may include rule books, gameboards, or gamepieces. The only aspect of this site that is iffy is the map display and there are probably ways around that.

The difference between us and Scrabulous is not size but economic potential. A-H gains more in free advertising from sites like this than they would earn from setting up their own site (seeing how screwed up their computer games are). Scrabble though has a big potential licensing pool they are not going to let anyone else get it for free.

Its worth noting too that Scrabulous was not sued until AFTER it supposedly refused a $10 million buyout from Hasbro and looked to sell elsewhere for more. Looks more like a negotiating tactic than a legal issue.
Bazin (527 D)
07 Aug 08 UTC
The interesting 'wrinkle' that is thrown into the mix with Diplomacy is the fact that A-H hosts a download of the rulebook on their website, along with pretty much everything else you need to play.

To me, this site is probably fair use of those documents.

But to make money off of the development of this site (much like playdiplomacy is trying to do) would likely be found to be not a fair-use.

Then again, I'm not a lawyer, so I could be waaaaaaay wrong.
Feckless Clod (777 D)
07 Aug 08 UTC
It's not like Hasbro could sue you for playing by e-mail, and it's not like there's anything to be gained by suing impoverished students such as Kestas, other than bad publicity.

It would make for an interesting court case, though. I would have to argue that principles such as moving, supporting, and convoying military units cannot be subject to copyright (otherwise, Dubbya would have to answer for his decision to invade everybody), whereas the copyright to the appearance of Europe belongs to the mice who originally commissioned it. I understand that the Norwegian fjords were designed by a gentleman named Slartibartfast....
DrOct (219 D(B))
07 Aug 08 UTC
That Feckless Clod is a frood who really knows where his towel is!
fidel (886 D)
07 Aug 08 UTC
I completely agree with Feckless. However, the rules of laws are usually not sensible... Copyright was originally designed to encourage *authors* (that is, people), to try new ideas, in a time when ideas were scarce, and you need a lot of resources to be able to simply think.
Now it is being used by *companies* to make profit (sometimes, but not always, giving some leftovers to authors), and establish empires (any similarity with sc's and the art of Diplomacy is merely accidental... ;-).

The movement of FreeSoftware regains some of the original spirit, by changing *monetary profit* with *pride profit*, which is something that appeals a lot of *people* (also authors). And I like it. Of course companies are not happy, because you cannot found an empire only on pride...

So, Fremen of the sand world, unite! If Hasbro complies about this site, Kestas simply remove the game online, and hundreds of other will appear... ;-)
That is the good thing of free software. Ideas cannot be caged...
http://www.betanews.com/article/Hackers_take_out_EAs_Scrabble_after_Scrabulous_removed_from_Facebook/1217448149

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2471000/Scrabulous-removed-from-Facebook-in-US.html

Here are some links if you want em'
Feckless Clod (777 D)
07 Aug 08 UTC
A few years ago, British Telecom claimed to have invented the blue hyperlink, and aggressively pursued an attempt to patent it. They didn't claim to have invented the hyperlink itself, as I recall, they just took great exception to the fact that hyperlinks were predominantly blue, which they said was their innovation. They were laughed out of court, of course....

Oh, and thanks, DrOct; it's all true, and jolly hoopy of you to say so.
Chrispminis (916 D)
07 Aug 08 UTC
Well it's interesting to note that only American and Canadian players are prohibited from playing Scrabulous, but international players are not. The co-founders of Scrabulous were more likely forced to take down their application by Facebook rather than intimidated by the threat of legal action.

Kestas, where is phpDip's host located and what is it's policy in these instances?

I fear that even if the mice commissioned the map it won't stop Hasbro from demolishing this site to make way for a new bypass...
kestasjk (95 DMod(P))
07 Aug 08 UTC
We're hosted by Dreamhost in America, a company well known for self-destructing their servers if they so much as receive an e-mail with "DMCA" in the subject :-(

But bear in mind Scrabulous had 450,000 users, and was earning the developers $22,000 per month each. I can see Hasbro being a little more annoyed about that than a place like this (that's probably far more than Hasbro themselves, as a company, make on it); I really don't think it's a concern :-)
Chrispminis (916 D)
08 Aug 08 UTC
Haha, well I wouldn't be surprised if this little site had more players than Hasbro's official PC implementation of Diplomacy.
kestas: Have you ever looked at 1and1 hosting? They're relatively inexpensive, and they've always been very nice to me. After having a slight misunderstanding with a corporation on a copyright issue, they didn't even shut my site down, but gave me a month to fix the problem. As it turns out, I had nothing to worry about, the corporation was merely making idle threats to any sites that linked to a site that was really causing the issue.
kestasjk (95 DMod(P))
08 Aug 08 UTC
chrispminis: True, but I think even Hasbro knows that's just because their PC implementation sucked :-P

Thanks for the suggestion Artero but we'll cross that bridge if/when we get to it, I definitely don't have the money to change hosts unless I'm forced to :-(
fraushai (1781 D)
08 Aug 08 UTC
Fidel: If the rules of law are not usually sensible, what is the basis of our obedience?

http://www.libertarian.co.uk/lapubs/libhe/libhe023.pdf

(N.B. I'm neither individualist nor anarchist, though I identify myself with the views expressed in this critique.)
Oxim (280 D)
08 Aug 08 UTC
Hasbro could start any time shutting down servers like this. Even if their rights maybe wouldn't stand till the last instance, Hasbro is a big company, and big companies have money, and money buys lawyers.
If they don't get you to shut down the server, they sure will get the server provider to do so.
A guy on my university got a mail, because of his "Mensch ärgere dich nicht"
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mensch_%C3%A4rgere_dich_nicht )
which he did as a semester project. After a few years of lying around somewhere
on a dead homepage with about 40 downloads in total, the owner of the rights
somehow googled to this site and sent him an email to shut it down (or change it's
name).
Altough it would be very silly of Hasbro to start shutting down sites like that, you never know when and if they start to do so.
Worldbeing (1063 D)
08 Aug 08 UTC
Without meaning to appear belligerent, I suspect that, if phpDiplomacy was forced by legal action to shut down, it would not be long before the already freely available and open source phpDip implementation was hosted elsewhere by someone less law-abiding.
It is this- and the more general trend of the uncontrollability of material over the internet- that would make it so useless for the license owner to pursue legal action against phpDip. Whereas Scrabulous is (was...) a large and profitable venture, with its main audience on the highly visible and commercial Facebook, the actions of individual web users, outside the bounds of companies, are impossible to control.
lkruijsw (100 D)
08 Aug 08 UTC
Note, that in US law, there is no copyright on game rules. I don't know the case of Scrabulous. But if it was on the rules, then I am pretty sure that would win in appeal. There is trademark on the name and probably on symbols. You can patent rules in the US.

In Europe it is the other way around. Things are more easily protected by copyright, but more difficult to patent.

The rules are not on the site, so you didn't 'copy' the rules. Copyright is about a very literal copy of something. You can't forbid people playing a game acoording to rules that you printed. Not even if it is played by the internet. Although, in Europe it slightly different.

Lucas Kruijswijk
fidel (886 D)
09 Aug 08 UTC
Thanks, Fraushai, for such a nice article. I do not consider myself an anarchist, but I agree with several of the things stated in the article, too.
Alas, you are being ironic with that of obedience, aren't you? Because if not, I cannot follow you... ;-)

Regarding anarchism, I like very much the "experiment" the Joker did in the last Batman movie, and its result. (SPOILER MAY FOLLOW...)

He said "Kaos is fair" and "Humans are selfish by nature" (or something like that... I only have seen the movie once, yet), but the experiment shown otherwise... for several reasons.

What I am trying to say is that luckily people is (often?) unpredictable. Not all of us will be obedient sheeps, not all of us will be dogs, or pigs. Unfortunately if "I didn't care for you" all of us must be "watching for pigs-on-the-wings".

Regarding ideas, I want to cite Kazuo Koike and Goseki Kojima. In the episode "The guns of Salai" of the series "Lone Wolf and Cub", the master Silent Shichirobei says:

"The cutting edge isn't the weapon. The cutting edge is skill, then endless effort of the inventor."

Let others have my ideas. I will always have more.
fidel (886 D)
09 Aug 08 UTC
It is "The guns of Sakai". Damn keyboards!


32 replies
bamed (357 D)
04 Aug 08 UTC
Multi-account
So I see lots of complaining and accusations going on here about multi-accounting. I was just curious if anything is ever done about it except for public accusations? Do people actually get banned? It seems like accusations fly all over the place, but the guilty keep on doing it. So is there really no recourse for those fallen victim to the multi-accounter? Or is there just so many accusations it's nearly impossible to wade through them all and take action?
On that note, does anyone notice anything suspicious about some of the players in http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=4732.
6 replies
Open
MajorFopa (1409 D)
08 Aug 08 UTC
Anyone interested in babysitting a good game?
I need a person to handle a game for me while I am away. Must have a decent record for submitting orders on time.
6 replies
Open
perestroika (100 D)
08 Aug 08 UTC
Metagaming... What is It?
I'm new to this site, and enjoying playing, but as I read the posts on the forum, I've come across the rather strange neologism mentioned in the Subject Line.
(more to come in a second)
4 replies
Open
number137 (817 D)
07 Aug 08 UTC
Friends playing together in I can't believe how good this game is
I just created this game --- http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=5054 --- so I can play with two of my friends (we all just joined the site). I don't think that should be a problem if it is disclosed up front. We all want to kill each other anyway (once you play Diplomacy together, you are no longer friends). Join up ... and bring your friends.
1 reply
Open
afrophil88 (212 D)
08 Aug 08 UTC
Error Message
In the game pot roast (I cannot include the URL because I cannot open the game), I get this error message when trying to open the game.

Error triggered: Invalid argument supplied for foreach().

This was probably caused by a software bug. The details of this error have been successfully logged and will be attended to by a developer.

Apparently the other players can still access the game because I have a message. I'm worried I might miss my turn. Can someone please help me with this?
1 reply
Open
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