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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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baumhaeuer (245 D)
17 Oct 10 UTC
Wherefore art thou been there?
Is the above legitimate King James English? Was "to be" conjugated in the with "to be" rather than "to have" in the perfect tenses?
9 replies
Open
Gobbledydook (1389 D(B))
20 Oct 10 UTC
Gamemaster stopped processing games?
I wonder what happened?
4 replies
Open
justinnhoo (2343 D)
19 Oct 10 UTC
OLD GAMES
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=3#gamePanel
im looking at the old games on this website, how come u can't see the units?
11 replies
Open
penguinflying (111 D)
19 Oct 10 UTC
Rules Question: Support-Holding a unit that tries to move but fails.
Hypothetical situation here.
4 replies
Open
pixienat (100 D)
20 Oct 10 UTC
bug in game
Each time I enter ANY move, from Moscow it tells me there is an error.
http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=39790
4 replies
Open
groza528 (518 D)
19 Oct 10 UTC
Adjusting strategy for absentees
Is it ok to change your strategy to account for other people missing their orders?
27 replies
Open
President Eden (2750 D)
17 Oct 10 UTC
Reference for PPSC draw vs strong second
Ever wondered if you would benefit more in a PPSC by playing for a strong second instead of drawing? Read on!
69 replies
Open
figlesquidge (2131 D)
15 Oct 10 UTC
Bannings
MAKE SURE THE EMAIL ASSOCIATED WITH YOUR ACCOUNT IS VALID AND CHECKED REGULARLY
If you do not your account might be closed.
53 replies
Open
Oskar (100 D(S))
19 Oct 10 UTC
Who likes Black Forest Ham?
We need four more players. Ante = 50, WTA, Anon, Phase = 1.5 days

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=40230
1 reply
Open
JetJaguar (820 D)
19 Oct 10 UTC
South American Map - Diplomacy
I'm set to meet up with some friends to play the 4 person South American variant. Anyone out there played that variant/map before? Any tips?
1 reply
Open
Invictus (240 D)
18 Oct 10 UTC
Collapse of North Korea
What happens when the North falls apart?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/17/AR2010101702608.html
13 replies
Open
texasdeluxe (516 D(B))
11 Oct 10 UTC
Atheism
I've almost finished reading 'The God Delusion' by Richard Dawkins and thought I might share the experience here...
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Jamiet99uk (808 D)
15 Oct 10 UTC
@Conservative Man: "He didn't come to be there. He was just there. There was no time then, before the univerde. Visualise it as just one instant in time (even thought there actually was no time), and that God was there in that instant."

How was he there? What made him be there? Why do you believe that he was there?
orathaic (1009 D(B))
15 Oct 10 UTC
what caused him to be there? Your story answers no question that i didn't have before (ie what caused the Universe? - I still ahve this question, just moved to 'God' instead of the Universe...)
Jack_Klein (897 D)
15 Oct 10 UTC
The point isn't what I personally think. They thought it was moral. It was a righteous thing to do. The morality they agreed on allowed people to do that to others, and it was no issue. I have my morals. I realize that I am a product of my time, and I have these because I was raised to do so. They were raised differently, so different things are moral.

So you're saying its totally cool to murder people because their pagans?

I have to say, you're fairly in line with mainstream Christianity throughout most of its history, as profoundly immoral as that is.

@ Jamiet99uk

"Thats utter bullshit.

Why does the universe need a creator, if god does not?

If god can exist without having been created, then so can other things."


I'm guessing then that you disagree with but cannot refute the argument? Time is a function of the universe. God, having created the universe, can act upon it but is not a part of it, so he's outside of it's timestream. Tell me if or how time acts outside of this universe and we might be able to work out if God needs a creator. The possibility of other beings existing without being created only strengthens the point it was intended to ridicule. So what? what if there are fifty such beings each having created its own universe. It does not detract from God creating this one.
Mafialligator (239 D)
15 Oct 10 UTC
"Time is a function of the universe. God, having created the universe, can act upon it but is not a part of it, so he's outside of it's timestream." You're asserting this, that god exists outside the timestream, and that the timestream is inherently part of the universe. But you cannot support that with evidence. And the point of pointing out the issue of infinite regression created by invoking a god to create the universe isn't to show that god cannot possibly exist. The point is instead to illustrate how arbitrary it is to say "The universe can't exist without a creator, but god can." I can, with as much justice simply say, the universe has always existed, perhaps in different forms, or something, but has always existed, and therefore time doesn't really have a beginning point. You can't refute that point any more than I can refute yours. And invoking a being like god is a completely arbitrary way of explaining things that is only really given such credence because of a long historical legacy.
@Jamiet/Ora: Nothing Caused God! Do you understand that that is what I believe. He was just THERE. I can't explain why or how because it is impossible to truly comprehend no time, which is where God existed before he created the universe.
@Jack: This is just a matter of opinion. We both agree that some immoral things were considered moral a long time ago. You say that that made them moral then. I say they would still be immoral no matter what.
Chrispminis (916 D)
15 Oct 10 UTC
CM, I've explained this to you in depth before, but if time doesn't necessarily exist outside of our universe, than our universe doesn't necessarily need a cause or creator any more than God would. Causality only applies within the universe.

"This is the guy who entitled one of his books - 'The selfish gene'. What a horrible example of dogmatism triumphing over objectivity. He probably set the Public Understanding of Science back around a decade with this one move."

Have you read the book? He's actually very careful to make it clear that he's anthropomorphizing genes for the sake of simplicity but that one must always check to see that they are not overstepping the boundaries of the analogy. I think the title is quite appropriate, and that it does an excellent job of explaining evolution. I myself read it when I was about 8 and had no trouble understanding it even then. I wish he had stuck to teaching evolution and hadn't moved on to this atheist stuff because he was extremely good at what he did, which was writing science for the layman. I can't think of a more qualified person to hold that chair.

Re: 1) You can't expect to find a single gene that makes someone more altruistic... there's a whole host of human behaviour built to lubricate co-operation. There's a great deal known already about the physiology surrounding these behaviours, such as the hormones involved in trust, and the brain areas responsible for moral judgement. It is not farfetched to say that genes have a role to play in the development of these faculties, and just because we have not pinpointed the genes responsible *yet* does not make the hypothesis unscientific or implausible. The gaps are hardly large enough to justify shoehorning God into the equation.

Re: 2) Uh, actually there's a very simple way to define fitness... and that's by reproductive success, because that's how selection works. Yes, this means that a celibate Nobel prize winner or Olympic athlete is less evolutionarily fit than the trailer park Mom with six kids. In addition, you cannot separate the population into such groups, because natural selection works on the allele frequency and it works in parallel, not on one advantage at a time. It is more probable that over time the population gets stronger, more resistant to malaria, and more efficient at digestion if the costs of such adaptation are outweighed by their benefits.

Re: 3) No, that is no true. It is only "pure" altruism, in the sense that one individual sacrifices its reproductive success to increase another's, that can only exist amongst kin groups. But evolution doesn't act upon the individual, but on the gene pool, so this is perfectly possible. Reciprocal altruism doesn't require one individual to sacrifice for anothers benefit, but rather there is a mutual benefit involved, so you do not need to be related to someone to engage in reciprocal altruism. Reciprocity doesn't just extend beyond immediate kin, but extends beyond species. Humans and dogs share a reciprocal relationships, and there are many great examples of symbiotic relationships in nature. On the contrary, this doesn't legitimize racism, but makes it completely irrational as it creates artificial and arbitrary dividers on what is in reality a continuum. In addition, it creates a much stronger case for the ethical treatment of intelligent animals.

Regarding your conclusions, for one, I believe that morals are derived from human society and not from any higher power or authority. This is not nearly the same as believing that rape is not always immoral, and I'm a little annoyed that you would try to pose it as such. Just because morals aren't derived from an authority does not mean that they are inconsistent... Frankly, I find the idea of a morality derived from authority to be little in the way of morality at all. What sort of morality is it if you don't kill people because you'll get an eternity of pleasure and if you do commit murder you'll be disobeying the edict of an omnipotent deity that will bring upon you the punishment of eternal damnation. I don't call that free will, I call that bribery and threat; its coercion.

Additionally, I do not believe that pure altruism does not, or cannot exist. People do not actually carry out any direct accounting when determining the fairness of a deal, nor do they engage purely in direct reciprocal relationships. This is because the faculties involved are inexact and qualitative; there is more feeling than calculating going on, and it is a result of our evolutionary legacy. It is just that these faculties combined tend to give, on average, a form of reciprocal altruism between nonrelated members of premodern society. It is apparent that society and culture have a significant role to play in the development of a human being, and there is no reason to believe that a society could not make someone more, or even less, altruistic. In the long term, if pure altruism is not met in kind by pure altruism, then it cannot be sustained in the gene pool to the extent by which it is governed by genes. However, this is on evolutionary time scales, and we, as individuals, do not live on evolutionary time scales. It is up to you how you choose to conduct your relationships with the people around you, and it will be them that judge you, not God or natural selection.



Jack_Klein (897 D)
15 Oct 10 UTC
But your God said they were moral. Isn't he the supposed giver of your morals?

If God said butcher the people of Jericho, that makes it moral, right?
@ mafialligator

"You can't refute that point any more than I can refute yours. And invoking a being like god is a completely arbitrary way of explaining things that is only really given such credence because of a long historical legacy."

The problem with that reasoning is that it completely nullifies all opinions about the subject. As you said your statement was equally arbitrary. If you'd stopped there it would have been fine. Yet you went on to make an opinion statement about why the claim that God created the universe was given credence. To a Christian the idea came ultimately from God's revelation of himself and is therefore upon the most solid foundation. Upon what do you base your opinion?

Likewise my point was not to show that God created the universe. It was instead to point out the flaw in Jamiet99uk's argument. It was based on the analogy that a being in one dimension or universe must abide by the rules governing another. That's an insupportable leap.
@Jack: It makes the butchering of Jericho specifically alright. If doesn't make the butchering of any random city or town alright.
Arya8 (100 D)
15 Oct 10 UTC
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=40054

Wow, random killing is all right because some guy started hearing voices. Those there are some questionable morals.
kreilly89 (100 D)
15 Oct 10 UTC
@JamieT: I didn't make as complete a statement as I should have, Aquinas defines the uncaused cause as God as it is the only way to prevent a causal chain. That isn't to say that God is a special case as Aquinas doesn't attempt to argue from that point, but simply that unless an uncaused cause existed at the beginning of the universe a causal chain would occur. He defines that uncaused cause as God, in no way does he attempt to argue that God is a "special case" in terms of not needing a cause as that isn't the point he is making.
Jack_Klein (897 D)
15 Oct 10 UTC
So you think its OK if God told you to slaughter children. Its morally defensible to do so if you think God told you to do that?

You realize you sound like a crazy person.
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
15 Oct 10 UTC
If Optimus Prime told me to kill someone, I don't care who he is, that fucker's going down.
@mafialligator

"And to say that outspoken religiosity isn't tolerated on university campuses while outspoken atheism is, is really misleading and makes you sound like you have a persecution complex. It's not outspoken religiosity that isn't tolerated, its the various prejudices and forms of intolerance (ie. anti-gay prejudices) which seem to go hand in hand with outspoken religiosity that are not tolerated."


The application of the label "persecution complex" seems a bit hasty. A white guy in the deep south could equally say "Things ain't that bad". I'll give you a challenge. The next time its relevant to any of your classes, honestly and to the best of your ability write a paper that defends Christian ideals or thought. I've done it (and you can see that I don't resort to the Bible as evidence even in casual writing). I'd be interested to see what you think of your grade.
@mafialligator

I'm curious about your remark that outspoken Christianity seemed to go hand in hand with “as to the source various prejudices and forms of intolerance”. I think that you may be rewrapping texasdeluxe’s remark and sending back to me again. Let’s examine this.

Atheists are more outspoke because they see Christian hegemony and are keenly aware that they must fight against it (ie yeah we’re intolerant but we’ve got a good reason to be). Basically you agree that atheists are more likely to engage in debate, but think it’s okay because you agree with them.

Christians, you also agree, are less likely to engage in debate, but you attribute that to laziness as others will join in the fight. You don’t think it has anything to do with their tolerance of others? Not even just a little bit?


Just curious, why aren’t we hearing from the embattled European Christians. If what you say is so they should be pitching a right, nasty fit.
Arya8 (100 D)
15 Oct 10 UTC
we argue our points more, because more people should be subscribing to rational thought, at leat in everyday life. If you want to get a warm, fuzzy feeling every sunday, that's up to you. I personally see it as a waste of time. We have NOT yet started a war over our beliefs, unlike some people.
Mafialligator (239 D)
15 Oct 10 UTC
@ Crazy Anglican
You have a lot of points to reply to. So here goes.
You said: "To a Christian the idea came ultimately from God's revelation of himself and is therefore upon the most solid foundation. Upon what do you base your opinion?"
I say: Logical conjecture based on overwhelming available evidence.

You said: "The next time its relevant to any of your classes, honestly and to the best of your ability write a paper that defends Christian ideals or thought. I've done it (and you can see that I don't resort to the Bible as evidence even in casual writing). I'd be interested to see what you think of your grade."
Response: Simply because a paper based on christian principles might not get a good mark that doesn't mean that it's because everyone on a university just arbitrarily hates Christianity. It probably means that ideas derived from religious thought are incompatible with the methodologies and the principles of most rigorous academic disciplines. For instance, I am an anthropology major. Writing a paper based on christian ideals in this field, would be criticized (and rightly so) for being ethnocentric and incredibly normative. But I mean, that's only one discipline. I'm curious. What papers have you written from a christian perspective, and what were their theses? I'm willing to bet the reason why you were marked down isn't just because "Hey fuck you, you're a christian."

And finally to your third point. You apply an odd definition of intolerance. Arguing with someone is not being intolerant. (To a point, obviously things can be said in an argument that are intolerant, but generally, atheists manage to toe that line, with notable exceptions of course) There's nothing wrong with engaging in debate. And yeah speaking as a gay atheist, I really, really, really don't think christian complacency in the face of largely ineffectual opposition has even the slightest thing to do with their boundless tolerance of those who are different.

"Just curious, why aren’t we hearing from the embattled European Christians. If what you say is so they should be pitching a right, nasty fit."
That's easy enough to answer. Because really, the degree to which Christianity is threatened in Europe is ridiculously exaggerated to the point of sensationalism. Christian hegemony is still the norm in most of Europe, even while the media decry the downfall of religion in Europe.
Mafialligator (239 D)
15 Oct 10 UTC
Errr, I should clarify, when I say I base my opinion on logical conjecture based on overwhelming available evidence what I mean to say is that that is normally what I base my opinions on. To believe in something, I need to be able to logically conjecture it's existence based on overwhelming available evidence. Having seen not even the slightest whit of evidence for the existence of a god, I choose to subscribe to the position called negative atheism which is to say "I do not believe there is a god." I hope that clears up a point that I realize didn't make much sense in my original post.
Arya8 (100 D)
15 Oct 10 UTC
@mafia-when I say I base my opinion on logical conjecture based on overwhelming available evidence what I mean to say is that that is normally what I base my opinions on. To believe in something, I need to be able to logically conjecture it's existence based on overwhelming available evidence. Having seen not even the slightest whit of evidence for the existence of a god, I choose to subscribe to the position called negative atheism which is to say "I do not believe there is a god." I totally agree
"You said: "To a Christian the idea came ultimately from God's revelation of himself and is therefore upon the most solid foundation. Upon what do you base your opinion?"
I say: Logical conjecture based on overwhelming available evidence."

Overhwhelming available evidence that refutes that God may have revealed himself through religions? Okay, let's see some.
Ah I see your second post. Negative atheism can't really negate the possibility that God has revealed himself in the way claimed though, right?
It's not that there is overwhelming evidence against; it's that you haven't experienced evidence for. Which are totally different things. Am I correct?
Mafialligator (239 D)
15 Oct 10 UTC
I guess I could argue that that kind of revelation cannot stand in for conclusions based on logical conjecture etc etc. But no to all intents and purposes we've hit an impasse. Please make no mistake, I respect your point of view and your beliefs, I just disagree with them. By engaging in debate I make my voice and my opinion heard. I do not seek to convert you, only to try and get you to respect my point of view in kind.
Mafialligator (239 D)
15 Oct 10 UTC
Yeah precicely. To draw an analogy, I also haven't experienced any evidence for the existence of invisible giant purple moon tigers, and I don't see why I should believe in god, without any evidence for him, but not invisible giant purple moon tigers.
Arya8 (100 D)
15 Oct 10 UTC
Religion was created to justify kleptocracy, not through the revealing of God
"I'm willing to bet the reason why you were marked down isn't just because "Hey fuck you, you're a christian."

I think you'd lose that bet. I have only failed one History class (and have made A's routinely my others). The particular professor who came to mind mocked the Apostle Paul repeatedly in class and blames the fall of Rome on Christianity's rise (which actually had the opposite effect of holding the empire together for a couple of additional centuries). This, of course, was one crack pot, but there is little recourse through administration, which is the basis for my claim.
Mafialligator (239 D)
15 Oct 10 UTC
Oh for sure. There will always be a handful of nutcases on any side of a debate. But that's not enough to support or justify the sweeping statements you've made about widespread intolerance of Christianity on university campuses.
I do respect you point of view and I've never been one to be intolerant of anyone's lifestyle. Personal choices are exactly that. I don't pretend to know anyone's inner morality.

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368 replies
Lando Calrissian (100 D(S))
19 Oct 10 UTC
Go Titans
Best game I've ever been a part of.
5 replies
Open
yayager (384 D)
19 Oct 10 UTC
Formartine United - Post Game Comments
9 replies
Open
tilMletokill (100 D)
17 Oct 10 UTC
PPSC, 35bet, and 1 day,12hour turns
2 replies
Open
JesusPetry (258 D)
11 Oct 10 UTC
Weaponship
Whoever is playing Austria in this gunboat may already unpause, France is back.
21 replies
Open
Malleus (2719 D)
18 Oct 10 UTC
No response to mod email
I sent an email to the mods about a week ago but have received no response. I sent it to [email protected]. Is that the correct address?
9 replies
Open
principians (881 D)
18 Oct 10 UTC
what do you think about...
...
9 replies
Open
kestasjk (95 DMod(P))
18 Oct 10 UTC
China's medical ship reaches Kenya
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-11560193

What do you think?
9 replies
Open
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
17 Oct 10 UTC
GFDT Replacement Needed
I need a replacement to take over two games. If you're interested, email me at [email protected]!
13 replies
Open
Agent K (0 DX)
14 Oct 10 UTC
Calling out these players
Attention. I want to play a game with these people. If you do not join, it is because you are scared.

71 replies
Open
Furball (237 D)
17 Oct 10 UTC
Harmony between advanced and underdeveloped countries
So, my last thread I posted was about the great war between USA and China because of exchange rates. I also noted about Japan declaring war against the Yen (china's bill).
This time I want to point out a more long-term subject which we will have to look into as time passes.
"How will we create harmony between advanced and underdeveloped countries?"
Write what you think.
10 replies
Open
Furball (237 D)
13 Oct 10 UTC
CHINA, USA WAR!!
Lately, a sort of war is happening between China and USA based on exchange rates. China has a fixed exchange rate. USA and the international society is pressuring China to change its policy to free changing exchange rates based on imports and exports. USA claims that "Chinese bills should be 40% higher in value than it is now." "This policy is disrupting the balance of the flow of money." ...
47 replies
Open
BigZombieDude (1188 D)
10 Oct 10 UTC
Diplomacy quotes
I had an idea occur to me and its led me to start a project of sorts. To get the ball rolling i want to know your favourite Dipomacy quotes. I notice that some of you have them on your profile page but there must be a number of others out there...so to help me along, post them here and ill add it to my project!
52 replies
Open
BuddyBoy (147 D)
17 Oct 10 UTC
gunboat -3
We need more players, new or old. Join the fun!
5 replies
Open
tektelmektel (2766 D(S))
16 Oct 10 UTC
Is there a way to force a Draw
What happens if you are in an endless game and one of the players doesn't realize that a stalemate line has been established? Does the game autodraw after a period of time?
26 replies
Open
The Czech (39715 D(S))
17 Oct 10 UTC
Gary Numan Live
I'm going to see Gary Numan in concert tomorrow. Anyone seen him live? What can I expect? The venue is a club in Orlando. I've seen the Youtube vids, but am curious as to the sound live.
0 replies
Open
Draugnar (0 DX)
11 Oct 10 UTC
Oh man... This sucks...
So I'm in this game and kicking ass. But now the remaining players are going to band together and force me to draw. Good play on their part. No problem with it at all. But I'm so much higher rated in GR, that I'll *lose* GR on anything more than a 4 way draw. We are at 6 right now...
49 replies
Open
Parable (100 D)
14 Oct 10 UTC
Chat boxes
Can someone with this site please fix the chat boxes in the games? They constantly freeze. It takes me like 5 minutes and 5 re-loads just to type a simple sentence. Very discouraging for new players trying to enjoy this site.
9 replies
Open
FatherSnitch (476 D(B))
14 Oct 10 UTC
Mornington Crescent
Anyone fancy a game of Mornington Crescent? I propose the Simplified Version (Stovold’s Defence is still allowable during Forward Triangulation, but Back Doubling may only be attempted after a Northern Approach). Mainline stations are wild.

I'll start conservatively with: Tottenham Court Road.
45 replies
Open
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