@otto

"I guess I'm not a 100% atheist. I'm an agnostic that is about 99.99999% sure there is no God.... "

Out of curiousity, how did you arrive at those numbers? I find that I'm 99.9999978698% sure that there is a God. So I was just wondering ;-)

Well you caught me! I have never had a near death experience so I can not judge them very well. I'm sure they at least seem real to those who say they experience them. What kind of evidence would be appropriate here? It's hard to say that you can substantiate any claim about this topic unless you have some personal connection to it, which I certainly do not. Once again, not just a gut feeling, it's a part of my reality, my ego in the Freudian sense. Is it possible, in your opinion, to believe in resurrection without first believing in the concept of a soul? Elucidate what you are trying to get me to respond to, your last post was somewhat vague...

Apparently near death experiences can be simulated in those high-G-force centrifuges

Come on! It's a completely arbitrary number, while at the same time it's as close to 100% as one can get (and it virtually is 100% ironically) without actually achieving 100% belief or lack thereof. 99.9 repitend is much better than 99.9999978698.....

This thread is wonderful. =)

Personally I'm a christian and believe that God from the bible probably exists. I believe this because I see evidence of a creator in science. However, there is no real evidence connecting THAT creator with the God from the bible. So thats just where I'm at personally, right now.

I've also noticed though that an incredible amount of people in churches don't know how or why they believe what they believe. They are simply indoctrinated by the "church culture" and don't even ask why they should believe it. That drives me nuts.

Also, alot of the christians I meet are simply dumb. Granted, I have met some that are very good at philosophy and ideas and that whole area of knowledge but for the most part they are somewhat superficial.

Thats just my little rant. =P

Bravo. Finally someone who agrees. Kudos for your rant! Are you a deist then? I was a deist for short while, but I slowly drifted away from that theory. I think the word "indoctrinated" sums it up well in terms of the church culture you define. Thanks for the back up.

Glad there are other people out there like me. =) and yeah any indoctrination is always a little scary. The church isn't the only one to do it though, the schools do it pretty heavily aswell.

@kestasjk

"Apparently near death experiences can be simulated in those high-G-force centrifuges"

That's interesting, I'd like to see a link for the methodology of that study if you have it. I wonder how they would know the simulation from actually causing the real thing?

@ jman777
"I've also noticed though that an incredible amount of people in churches don't know how or why they believe what they believe."

Hopefully you'll find I'm not one of those kind of Christians.

@otto

I know, I just couldn't resist throughing another arbitrary number out there. You have to admit mine looked more precise ;-) I did it merely to point iut the meaning of the phrase as I see it. To state that you are 99.99(however long you wish to go with the nines after it) sure of something; is to admit that you are not sure at all. Basically all either of us are saying with that is that we aren't sure, but we are confident. I'm believe myself to be equally confident in my convictions. Confidence, does little to bolster either of our positions though, we have to move on to the evidence upon which we base our convictions.

That being said are you willing to stipulate that the evidence seems to point to there actually being a historical Jesus of Nazareth? If not, upon what do you base your conclusion (again, you really don't need to base a belief on anything, but I find it's more compelling if you do)

Ouch laden with typos **hangs head in shame** Hope you can get to the meaning through the poor punctuation.

The agreement that there is a historically verifiable Jesus Christ is the first part of the argument. I'll assume that nobody has refuting this makes it okay to go on with the rest. I'll wait a bit more though as we've had nobody agreeing either.

I'd like to know what Christians are blindly following? Do you think we're a cult? I know what I'm studying and I know what I believe. I don't understand why some atheists attack Christians with this altercation.

maybe I misjudged, but I know that if I ask people "why should God exist" they don't have a very good answer for it.

To be honest, I've found some of the smartest christians on here. idk why, but it is kind of interesting.

I'm in class right now but I'll read you big post once I get a chance.

I see no altercation, just friendly banter. So are you agreeing that there was a historical Jesus of Nazareth based upon my earlier (pg. 3) evidence presented?

Yeah, sorry I do get kinda wordy (okay downright verbose) as the night wears on.

I just read the last 10 posts. I can't be bothered to read a huge wall of text, attempting to prove a point that no one would agree to.

My opinion (and not only mine) is that Jesus wasn't actually "the son of god" but a social revolutionist. Someone that some Americans would rather call a communist.

You think that no one would agree to the idea that Jesus Christ actually existed? Personal experience states otherwise from my perspective. There are lots of statistics etc. of numbers of believers as well. It seems an innocuous beginning.

And thank you hellalt. That's the one I was looking for. Kind of busy right now, but I'll begin a little later,

This may stimulate discussion...

http://www.uuworld.org/spirit/articles/152571.shtml

@jman-(missed your post before)

I believe God exists because of his canny knack of answering prayers. Whether it's direct or in a way I didn't expect it, he always answers my prayers in the perfect timing.

@Crazy Anglican -

otto said: "I'd much rather live in Hell if there is a God than pussy out like everyone else..."

you said: "I'm actually wondering how many broken bones on the playground are a result of a very similar line of reasoning."

I'm pretty sure that breaking bones is a great learning experience, and actually helps children mature and learn what risks to take... Alas we have no chance in this life to learn from our mistakes when it comes to the afterlife. (the cruel one doesn't give us any hint which religion to follow, merely that if we choose the wrong one we're doomed to an eternity in hell... or what religion we choose to follow doesn't matter so long as we think we're doing the right thing.)

"My opinion (and not only mine) is that Jesus wasn't actually "the son of god" but a social revolutionist. Someone that some Americans would rather call a communist."

I would agree with the second part, how and ever, in the sense that Adam was created by God (at least according to the bible) then we are all children of God, thus Jesus must also have been a child of God... What makes him special is his revolutionary ideas. (The idea of creating a heaven on earth is particularly appealing to me Utopian idealistic side...)

oh and i don't think there is much disagreement over the existence of Jesus of Nazareth, there may be some question of whether he was the Christ and Saviour - and whether he will come again (i'm sure if someone appeared again claimed to be the second coming of Jesus he would find himself particularly unpopular.)

But again I don't care about whether he specifically was or was not God's son, you can't prove it one way or the other, now if you want to look at the more interesting point and listen to his message (ignore the bits that say 'only through jesus will you find salvation' and listen to the bits where he explains what through him means, and what form of socialism we should setup - Jesus was also anti-establishment, but as a revolutionary you kinda have to be, and anti-authoritarian (i think) )

My God (am I even allowed to say that anymore? lol)

You're STILL going at it?

Well, as long as you are- bring me up sto speed on the positions, then ;)

(And for whowver cares- gave my "Nietzsche's Superman over Slave Morality in Christianity and In Particular the Church System and Dogma" speech... went well, totally empassioned, got full marks for it, and some Christian girls from my Philosophy class even came- and took NOTES! HA! How odd is THAT? And to top it off, after my passionate speech (I naturally have a very loud voice, so when I talk passionately it's booming, and add to that the fact I talk with my hands like William Shatner and really almost spoke the way Nietzsche writes, passionate and sharp and vehement) I didn't get the hellstorm form the very-Christian classmates that I expected, they were all totally blown away, though they questioned me so much after the speech to make me defend my position it may as well have been the Inquisition... I touched quite a few nerves, though I think I may really have jangeld this 40-year old lady most- totally into the dogma, she was somewhere between outraged and mortified at the "God is Dead, Rise of the Supermen" idea and the really the whole thing... and she thought I was a NICE guy- NOT ANYMORE!)

I still think Nietzsche was wrong, and this thread has meandered far away from that particular topic...

@jman777: "I'm a christian"

You're a christian, but you believe in killing poor people?

(See the thread "Birds, Bees, and the U.S. Government" for more on jman777's disgusting views on the subject of people who aren't as wealthy as him. In short, he would be happy to see them all dead. That's the sort of christian he is)

If you had asked Ebenezer Scrooge (had he been real) before the revelation of the Spirirts on Christmas Eve, he probably would have called himself a Christian too, but had the exact same attitude as jman. In fact, I woul dbet jman's attitude is probably as much in jest as anything considering the time of year we are moving into.

no I posted the little piece about darwinian ideas to show how much darwinism does NOT work. It was a little off topic I guess but it's something I've been thinking about alot. The only time that darwinism has really been employed to it's fullest extent was in Nazi Germany, which shows how horrible the darwinian thought process can be.