Because the only person with leadership characteristics was unconscious.

That's a totally fair point. I don't actually know, and I agree it might have been more impactful if it was an already established character. On the other hand, I'm not really sure who that could have fit that slot in the story? Leia was, at the time, too important to the franchise to put in that role, (though of course now that Carrie Fisher has passed that's slightly awkward). And Admiral "It's a Trap!" Ackbar is just a little too silly. Off the top of my head.

I appreciated those themes being in the film, and so was willing to accept Dern as a vehicle for those themes, even if, in a serialized franchise like Star Wars, an established character might have been preferable.

That said, every franchise adds characters as the story moves on, and its universe expands. Empire Strikes Back added Lando, and Boba Fett, and Palpatine for example. Adding characters isn't inherently a bad thing.

And I don't think we can fault the filmmakers for not anticipating Carrie Fisher's untimely death.

I am 100% with you on those themes. I still contend that they could have been represented better with a more concise film with fewer characters. Lando and Boba Fett made it to Return of the Jedi and one of them made it to the end. Boba Fett's anticlimactic death was one of many reasons (infernal Ewoks, sappy child-friendly jokes) that RotJ is 4th best behind Sith from my POV. Boba Fett should have lasted longer, but Lucas wanted to do something with him since he didn't see another trilogy close on the horizon.

As for only having one character with leadership characteristics being unconscious, I'd say that reflects horribly on the screenwriters for having an entire bridge full of spaceship captains and knocking one out just to make another one look good. Bleh. Cheap plot devices to screw with characters that we barely had any time to develop an affinity for. Why bother in the first place??

And I should say that I actually *liked* the film--I'd give it 3 of 5 stars--but it could have been so much better if it were leaner and meaner.

@Occam'sNoseHairTrimmers

your lord of the rings example is bad:

1. the ring is a powerful force and the eagles were afraid of it corrupting one of them
2. the nazgul could easily kill some of them, they caught them by surprise at the end with the witch king already dead
3. archers exist and can kill them, and the eye, undistracted, would see them coming (or sauraman's - spell check - ravens would get the message through)
4. they really don't care about the affairs of men that much. they had a debt to Gandalf, but SERIOUSLY risk their entire clan's lives and piss of Sauron
5. if the on holding the ring got shot down, they'd be handing it over to Sauron, and they didn't want that risk

REASONS. LOGIC. GOOD THINGS.

the hyperspace thing is just kind of... a legitimate question. I understand the suspension of disbelief necessary in these kinds of movies, but very simply they should have made it where the hyperspace destroyed the long range cannons, but not the entire ship (and where smaller ships barely make it past shields)

otherwise the universe loses its connect to me. it's a practical solution to thousands of problems if you can blast through these things.

I liked the scene, it was amazingly shot, but maybe make it a *bit* less effective. that would satisfy all involved, and barely lessen the shot at all.

I mean the bigger the ship, the better it goes through shields? I guess, but it blasted ENTIRELY through. eh, but not the biggest problem with the films so far

I'm giving it a good 4/5 stars. still enjoyable, although the humor was a bit much. they lost the subtlety in some of the earlier movies, it was all very direct obvious jokes. that's not BAD, (especially not when compared to Jar-Jar - god forbid I must mention him again) but it just felt weird coming from a Star Wars movie.

quick head count: who liked Rose? who liked Del Toro?

for me Rose was such a poorly written character. At first she's just protecting escape pods and sad about her sister, but then she's talking about artillery lines and shit later on in the movie. Then she's also CAPTAINING A SHIP, and then when Po tells them to turn around, she turns around, but then somehow has enough time to make a massive arc around to hit Fin out of the way???? That's impossible, and also stupid. Then she kisses Fin before fainting in a moment of TERRIBLE acting, and I thought she died. but that'd be too nice. Plus... she had no way of knowing what would happen, and probably just postponed his death a few minutes longer from the walkers, and also doomed the entire base (from her perspective).

Then we have the whole moralizing about the animal cruelty. I mean I agree that animal cruelty is bad... but this is Star WARS. Han cut froze to dead a Tauntaun and then cut it open and stored Luke inside it. We went from bad-assery in the face of war to the cheesy line "no" *takes off saddle* "NOW it's worth it"

shut up bitch, they're getting rounded up ten minutes later don't pretend you did almost anything other than piss off some arms dealers, who probably won't want to sell your side weapons now.




On the other hand, Del Toro was... well I liked him. Weird weird cameo by him, but he is the thief, he's the Han, but on the wrong side. But then again, Han is only on the "right" side by accident in the end. Del Toro is out for himself, and that REALLY clashed with the moralizing from Rose/Fin, and kind of made him stand out in the film. He wasn't entirely evil, and so you can't hate him like the rest. Dante would send him to Satan as a betrayer, but it's nice to see that someone in the script writing room remembers that this is a war, and with it there ARE gray lines (also why the opening scene with Cassian in Rogue One killing the messenger was such a shock for the new era).

I don't like the weird accent thing he has going... and honestly I'm more psyched about seeing him in Sicario 2 (out in June!!!) but I want more of him in 9. He and Kylo are the only two characters in this entire freaking universe right now not following the basic archetypes set out for these kinds of dramas.

I don't think he had any great scenes... but I think the whole rose/fin storyline was the worst of the 3 anyways.

Really? I think everyone who thinks the original movies were subtle, or didn't have obvious humour should give the old movies a rewatch. The banter was pretty on the nose. It's just a time thing. The kind of banter that exists in the original trilogy was de rigeur in the 70s. And the only reason it doesn't feel so apropos to us now, is because it's gone out of style. Nowadays jokes that rely on undermining dramatic tension are everywhere, and we're going "how dare the dialogue in a star wars film reflect the time period in which the film was written!" It's a mass market film designed to appeal to a wide audience. If that bothers you, maybe any film from the Star Wars franchise (other than maybe A New Hope) isn't for you?

You seem to have missed my point about the eagles.
I totally understand all of those arguments for why the eagles didn't just do the whole thing. My point wasn't "Why not eagles! There's no good answer!". My point was that logical explanations within the story are secondary to the metafictional explanation that that would be a really boring book/film series...

Similarly, previous Star Wars films as fictional narratives were not well served by having suicide runs at light speed be major plot points. My contention is that as a story beat, it served this film uniquely. There might be any number of in universe explanations for why it worked here, but isn't feasible in other situations. But all of those reasons are secondary to the overriding concern of what best serves the narrative.

Right. Why not spend more time developing Kylo Ren--WTF does he really want anyway?---than wasting it elsewhere. If you're gonna crush archetypes, make it work.

It's possible Del Toro's character will be kinda like a Lando Calrissian. We'll see what deus ex machina they pull to link him to some rebel scum.

Kylo REN is experiencing an identity crisis.

Don’t know why autocorrect capitalized Ren...

I think Kylo Ren is well developed as he is. (I promise I'm not trying to be contrarian, I genuinely like talking about stuff like this).

I totally get the idea of this character who seeks power at any cost out of a sense of inadequacy and insecurity. That seems pretty plausible to me, and is totally consistent with like, everything he does in both films. As always YMMV, but I think there's a lot going on there, both in the writing, and Adam Driver's performance.

So basically Kylo Ren is affluenza-entitlement Luke Skywalker?

That's perhaps more glib than I would put it, but yes.

@Occam

there was a lot of humor, but it was a much different style and tone of movie, and the humor was noticeably different.

but still, I almost wish the Rey had joined him, and Fin had force abilities. then you have a REAL new story. I mean there'd be problems with that too, but I just wanted a teeny bit more... and really Rey had a better connection to Ren than to Luke in that movie, far better in terms of acting quality.

I dunno, I still liked the movie alright. it was congested but not that bad

Well, and not just that. Because he knows he comes from an important family, unlike Luke, who at least thinks at first that he's from humble beginnings.

And like, as much as that sounds like a bad idea, it's an important storytelling technique, having characters act as foils for one another. In this new Trilogy, the legend of Luke Skywalker, does serve as a mirror to Kylo Ren.

And so instead of trying to live up to this legend, he tries to emulate Darth Vader instead, and in some ways he does, but in other ways he totally misses the point there too. Because while Vader used violence and even murder to maintain control over others, he always did so calmly and while in control. And so though Kylo Ren has figured out that he can lash out violently as a way to maintain control, he doesn't fully get why his tantrums don't have the same effect.

Kylo Ren constantly measures himself against others, and feels that he comes up short. And he doesn't realize that he's actually measuring himself against the legends that other people have become, rather than the actual complex people they were. And so while I don't relate to the anger, and the violent outbursts, I totally can relate to that insecurity of feeling like I come up short when comparing against an incomplete picture of someone else.

they put humor in weird places I mean.

Luke with lightsaber, dramatically holding it... tosses over shoulder
Luke asking Rey who she is, dramatic moment... joke about Jakku
Moment with the tree, the Jedi texts about to be born... Yoda weird joke laugh
Walkers firing on Luke, smashing the ground... "shoulder dust" joke

there were more... the jokes were good! but they took away from a lot of the drama. I don't mind humor, but I don't like it when humor comes at the expense of a good dramatic moment.

it's not even a massive criticism, for the most part they did well separating the drama and humor, and I liked the movie... it's just these little thematic changes that are new to Star Wars.


however, hats off to Rian Johnson. given VERY little time, with a JJ Abrams shit show of plot reengineering before him, weird characters... he had a LOT of great things done. I wish he were in charge over 9 instead of Abbrams.... but apparently Johnson has barely any movies done. Like he did Looper which was weird but good in its own way, but I want to see more from him.

and that's the crux of this... force awakens was absolute recycled piss. he had to work off of scraps, and made a more than competent movie.

And that's why he felt so conflicted about his parents, because he knows that either of them would take him back, forgive him, and love him without needing to compare him against others. And he both needs that, and also doesn't really understand why or how.

Kylo... he's a whiny teen with magical powers. "you don't understand me mom" and "I'm going to kill you on a dark bridge dad"

the usual stuff

Yeah, JamesYanik, that kind of humour you're talking about is called bathos and it's EVERYWHERE these days it's not just in Star Wars. Again you're kinda missing the point I was making. Jokes that deliberately undermine dramatic tension are very very in fashion right now. And Star Wars needs to make money right now. So it's going to fill itself with jokes that are very in fashion right now. And this isn't anything new. Previous Star Wars films have been just as (or, let's be real, often more) crass about it. The only reason it doesn't seem so now, is because the kind of humour has gone out of fashion and so it stands out less. And if the idea of a movie chock full of moments that are designed primarily to get bums in seats upsets you, then really no Star Wars movie has ever been for you.

No, Occam, it doesn't have to be that way. Star Wars does not have to become Marvel. The Marvel world doesn't take itself seriously. Star Wars always has. Rogue One was made a year ago and was able to have the right tone without off-putting humor. This is literally the only example in the entire canon of movies to have it's humor turn me off so much. The prequels even managed to prevent that kind of humor. They were cringy, but not tonally deaf.

And Prado, I swear to God I thought you were trolling this whole thread. I'm disappointed you weren't.

Main characters shouldn't be dropping jokes and then winking and nodding at the camera like those memes where the dogs drop Dad jokes. Can't they be serious? There's a freaking war going on. Bring back the sardonic wit and snide interplay BETWEEN the main characters rather than commenting on a third party or dropping irrelevant non sequiturs. Bad script.

Kylo Ren is the worst character I have ever seen as a main villain. You're saying these words about character depth, but honestly none of it has come across to me on screen. I don't understand his motivations, or how he got to the point where he is. Honestly I prefer him with the mask on trying to emulate Vader still. As soon as it came off, his whole character began to unwind.

God this whole reboot is such an awful crock of shit between the two movies. But at least TFA left the plot with multiple directions and angles to go from.

This movie? What the fuck is supposed to happen next? Rebuild the rebellion? From what! The First Order is literally the weakest it will ever be, and nobody came to help. The Resistance has lost all of their men and materials. But oh, because some slave child hates their life, there's hope for the rebellion.

Get the fuck out of here.

In the *actual* rebellion there's were dozens, if not hundreds of planets devoted to the cause either overtly or tacitly. They had spy networks spanning across the Galaxy. Bases all across the Outer Rim. It was *huge*. Before that in the Clone War the Separatists were hundreds of planets. The Resistance? Who the hell knows. There has been absolutely zero world building done in these movies, in stark contrast to the past series.

And to whomever answered that question about the bombs, no that is not how gravity works. Ever wonder why the space station doesn't fall to the ground? That's the same reason why those bombs wouldn't fall on that ship, even if the ship had it's own gravity well massive enough to cause them to fall at that rate (hint: it cannot)

I'm getting angry as I type this at all the excuses you guys have made for how horrible this movie was.

Thank you Jeff. All the +1s

@goldfinger

Abrams' shit show in TFA set up this movie for struggle. so many things wrong with that movie from the core

“I don't understand his motivations”

Neither does Kylo Ren. That’s the point.

that's a bad character. characters that don't understand their motivations should not be bad guys, it's an inherent contradiction. being a bad guy means you have specific bad motivations; the people with conflicting motivations are best left up to the Han type

the acting is dragging this along, Rey and Ren had some of the best scenes in that movie