I miss Putin33....

Yeah............NO

Putin33 and BOG should have a deathmatch, officiated by the Anthropomorphic Climate Change Smiley Cloud.

@bog: "kas"do you agree that there's a scientific consensus on climate change? " Yes. but they are wrong. As I stated at the outset, climate changes. Show how man causes the change. There was an ice age, the ice age went away. All without man. Other than your religious belief in man made climate change, show how man's activities has any impact on the natural course of climate change."

i can't. because i don't know much about climate change really, just as i don't know much about phsyics, or nanochemistry, or neurobiology.
but you seem to know more about climate change than a vast majority of climate scientists. that must have a reason, right?
and i don't want to hear you ask me your question again, because i can't answer it, just as i can't answer complex questions on nanochemsitry, neurobiology or physics. but if i'm going to claim that gravity doesn't exist and instead there is an entity in space that's physically pushing things towards the earth, would you simply believe me?

Since BOG keeps referring the Ice Ages I'm here to tell him that while they were really massive and caused a great change in the Earth's climate, even they happened slowly, and much more gradually than what we see today. The last Ice Age peaked 22000 years ago, and ended 10000 years ago. For 12000 average temperature of the planet rose super slowly, at about 0.01 Celcius per year

What we see today is not even remotely comparable. The temperature rise each year is at least 0.8 Celcius.

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/nasa-study-mass-gains-of-antarctic-ice-sheet-greater-than-losses

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/02/melting-ice-in-west-antarctica-could-raise-seas-by-3m-warns-study

Is it any wonder that people are confused? Is it any wonder that people are increasingly sceptical about what even "reputable" sources tell them?

Scepticism, I understand.

Ignorance is another matter. Comparing global warming to the Ice Ages is the epytome of ignorance.

With all during respect, boylee, that is utter tosh. Trying to understand past climate change, such as ice ages, is vital to any attempts to predict future climate change.

On that we agree. But it is also vital to understand multiplication before understanding exponentials.

That doesn't mean the two things have the same properties.

@Octavious - but that article said Antarctica has been gaining mass for 10,000 years, and the rate at which it is gaining mass has significantly slowed in the past century. Most of the ice gains are happening in East Antarctica and the interior, not the vulnerable ice sheets in the west. In fact, they said that if the losses in the Ross Sea and Pine Island areas continue, Antarctica will start shedding ice on net.

If people read, they wouldn't be confused.

Why are you people engaging with this trollish cretin.

BOG is a troll who should be bludgeoned to death with a blunt instrument. None of you should engage with any of his points. Ever.

End of.

You should read more carefully, goldfinger. What you have done there is skim read the article and moulded it into something that fits your own personal narrative of the situation. The NASA study claims, quite clearly, that Antarctica has been increasing its tonnage of ice quite considerably for two decades. It claims that previous studies that have consistently said the exact opposite have been wrong because they have failed to accurately calculate Antarctica as a whole.

The IPCC (2013) report attributed 1/4 mm of current annual sea level rise to the shrinking of the Antarctic ice sheets. This new NASA report now estimates that the current growth of Antarctic ice sheets contributes a 1/4 mm annual sea level fall.

I struggle to understand how you can easily brush that aside is if it's not important. Antarctica is a highly significant location in terms of global climate change measurements. What happens there, and in places like it, will determine how climate change impacts us all.

And, thanks to this study, what we can say without a shadow of doubt that either NASA or the IPCC or both have an understanding of what is currently happening that is so poor that not only do they not have a good idea of how quickly things are changing, they don't even know what the direction of change actually is!

Again, I stress that this is the present day scenario. If we can't get what is happening under our noses right, how they hell can we hope to predict the future with any degree of accuracy?

Gold "So, he could actually not be trolling, but just be really thickheaded."

OR, I could be right. The earth changes. Man has nothing to do with the change. It is arrogant to believe humans are bigger than the earth.

So tell me again - What forces caused the last ice age, and what forces caused the ice age to go away. All without man on earth.

Jamie "BOG is a troll who should be bludgeoned to death with a blunt instrument. None of you should engage with any of his points. Ever."

Right. Ignore reality and it will go away. Don't ever engage in a conversation with someone who disagrees with your religious beliefs. An amazingly closed mind you have Jamie.

boy "Ignorance is another matter. Comparing global warming to the Ice Ages is the epytome of ignorance." First. learn to spell before you accuse someone of ignorance. Second, this was to be be a facts based discussion. Your post is devoid of facts. Just religious beliefs.

Troll.

No, Octavious, that's what you've done. Your link was bad, so here is my source.

http://phys.org/news/2015-10-mass-gains-antarctic-ice-sheet.html

Change my wording from "century" to "decade" and my statement is still 100% consistent with the findings. I misspoke there.

"According to the new analysis of satellite data, the Antarctic ice sheet showed a net gain of 112 billion tons of ice a year from 1992 to 2001. That net gain slowed to 82 billion tons of ice per year between 2003 and 2008......But it might only take a few decades for Antarctica's growth to reverse, according to Zwally. "If the losses of the Antarctic Peninsula and parts of West Antarctica continue to increase at the same rate they've been increasing for the last two decades, the losses will catch up with the long-term gain in East Antarctica in 20 or 30 years—I don't think there will be enough snowfall increase to offset these losses."

BOG - I showed you a graph showing a direct correlation between CO2 and each Ice Age. that graph goes back several hundred thousand years. Now look on the very far right edge and you'll see C02 levels skyrocketing off the chart, in uncharted territory.

I won't say anything more until you address that graph, because I believe that data answers your question as to what causes Ice Ages. There is a natural cycle that is shown by C02 fluctuating, and we've disrupted that. Even if you say correlation doesn't equal causation, what else other than man is causing those C02 levels to hit new peaks?

Why must baldilocks be a troll?

He is right that climate change happens without us. Sea levels have been rising at various rates since the last ice age peaked. He is right that our understanding of what causes natural climate change events, such as an ice age, is not great.

Octavious - that study is also terrifying when you think about it. We've been measuring sea level rises for decades, but apparently this whole time Antarctica was limiting sea level rise. What's causing it then? And when Antarctica does actually begin to melt, the effects will be even more catastrophic than we've currently modeled.

gold "But it might only take a few decades for Antarctica's growth to reverse, according to Zwally." So despite the 'facts' of ice sheet growth, you believe (religiously) that it will change. Yes it will change. Up or down. Depending on the energy from the sun.

What computer model predicted the growth in Antarctic ice? Global warming exists only in the minds of computer model designers. No model ever predicted climate reality. Their predictions are never for next year. Always decades away. If the models are accurate, make a prediction for 6 months. or a year. Look at the facts.

BOG have you considered the possibility that you might NOT be qualified to recognize the facts even if you saw them?

I am starting to think goldie must be a troll :p.

Ok then, goldfinger, from your link (although why a NASA study talked about on a NASA site is bad, I'm not sure)

"The good news is that Antarctica is not currently contributing to sea level rise, but is taking 0.23 millimeters per year away," Zwally said. "But this is also bad news. If the 0.27 millimeters per year of sea level rise attributed to Antarctica in the IPCC report is not really coming from Antarctica, there must be some other contribution to sea level rise that is not accounted for."

As I said before, the NASA study of 2015 says Antarctic ice growth lowers sea levels by 0.23mm per year. The IPCC report of 2013 says Antarctic ice shrinkage rises sea levels by 0.27mm per year.

You claim not to be confused. OK then, I challenge you to tell me whether Antarctic ice is increasing or not. Because last week, I would have bet the farm on it shrinking. I couldn't have told you how much, but that it was shrinking was something of a no brainer based on the best scientific information.

Today, I don't have a bloody clue.

Tell me what it is doing, and why I shouldn't be confused.

Because even though I think I carefully explained why the Ice Ages are not comparable to what we witness today, based on the sheer magnitude of the events, you still insist on that I'm merely speculating.

P.S.: yeah, I misspelled a word. Sorry about that. I still think the point I was making is valid since we're not talking about grammar here.

kas "but if i'm going to claim that gravity doesn't exist and instead there is an entity in space that's physically pushing things towards the earth, would you simply believe me?"

No. But that is exactly what you are doing with man-caused climate change. You believe in the religion of climate change, without facts or understanding. It is a religion. A faith. belief.

Octavius: The IPCC report of 2013 says Antarctic ice shrinkage rises sea levels by 0.27mm per year.

I think this is where you might be wrong. We *measured* rising sea levels and before this report it was *speculated* that it was from the South Pole (since we saw glaciers melting). This was a mistake as the 2015 report states it, but the sea levels were still rising. This means that rising sea levels happens despite ice accumulating in the South Pole.

To be fair, I knew he was trolling after his first response to me. Way too obvious. I continued to respond in order to get +1s. :P

If I really wanted him to join the First Church of Climate Change, I'd just brainwash him into thinking that he's worthless and that some higher entity is responsible for everything good that's undeservingly happened to him. Just like 90% of other religions.

Jamie - "Troll" Brilliant!

Call names when you can't argue the facts.

BOG please notice that is exactly what you have been doing for a while now.