So reading about half of this over I think people are going way to much into the whole religion vs no religion arguments. It should be more focused around this question: Should you help your friend with something she's struggling with? My answer to this is always yes, she's your friend, she came to you with a problem. So yes it's appropriate of you to offer her your explanations of beliefs, since it seems she basically came and asked you about them, and no you are not responsible for what she ultimately chooses to believe. You can't force someone to believe something, you can only show them why you think a certain way. It's their choice to decide if that form of thought is right for them too. That's how I see it anyways.

abgemacht: I only read your first few posts.

Firstly, I don't believe that believing in a higher being is harmless, even if this belief isn't tied to a 'religion'. I agree, however, that it is a step in the right direction.

Secondly, you will not need to rebuild her "moral compass". From the sound of it, she's not a fundamentalist, so her sense of right and wrong should be unharmed. If she questions where an atheist's moral's come from, just reply as I reply as I reply (elaborating as necessary): "How hard is it to realize that you can do what you want until you annoy the person next to you?"

Now, make no mistake: you run the risk of making her feel destroyed and devastated. While some atheists would rather not risk putting people in this state, preferring to let people live in La-La Land for the rest of their lives, I think that freeing people when given the opportunity is one of the best gifts you can give somebody. You will free her. People can make the journey on their own, but giving them support or a fellow non-believer to talk to can ease the journey, don't you think?

@Krellin

I find it interesting how you can send me such a polite message over PM, but the bile immediately starts spewing out once you're on the forum. I guess you need to keep up appearances.

If I thought changing beliefs were so easy, then why would I have started this thread?

@JECE

I mentioned the thing about the moral compass because I have witnessed people who, once they stopped having god shoved down their throats, they thought it meant they could do anything they liked and ended up making a number of stupid decisions. I suspect this has more to do with their personality independent of beliefs, but I wouldn't want to inadvertently be a cause of that.

Abge - it's not bile - it's honest. It's a different view from my private message, yes, but valid just the same. Yes...I do need to keep up appearances, lol. But...."bile"....why, because I dare to challenge your actions? I challenged your actions in my PM, too, if you read it carefully.

But the threads have a different tone, a different set of characters, etc...and I speak to them as well as you when I speak here.

@Sandgoose - I don't think there is any BS in suggesting that somebody with no foundation in spiritual beliefs should maybe not be messing with someone elses spiritual beliefs....and that if someone who claims no spiritual foundation (having come from primordial slime) is then suggesting that he does have spiritual beliefs....then he himself is confused and had *really* think twice about trying to persuade someone else what they should or should not believe.

If this is "bile"...then children need to grow up and not pose adult questions in public.

@ABGE -- Please point **specifically** to what I have said that constitutes "bile"?

lol

"bile" may have been overly harsh, but you must admit, it's off-putting when I start a thread like this specifically because I know what I'm doing is hard and requires tact and I'm then accused of thinking it's trivial to change someone's beliefs. It's like you don't even read what was written.

Abge....most people here don't read or comprehend what is written and no, I haven't read everything and yes, I think you are taking this thought to lightly and are too eager to change her viewpoint, depsite your post on here. You gut reaction is to want to save her from herself because you are an athiest and don't believe her religion is any good for her....except you, as an athiest, somehow have some vague spirituality....making me think you should figure out your own beliefs before messing with someone elses in any way but as a sounding board for her to workout her own beliefs without interjecting your own thoughts.

If I offended you, I'm sorry. As for nike and the other loud-mouthed shmucks...do't care if I ofended, because they SEEK to be offended.

....and...you accuse me of not reading what's been written....but called my words "bile" before rereading them and correcting yourself.....right? So...pot....kettle...I'll confess if you do first. I hear Saint Draugnar is back - I'm sure he will hear our joint confession.

"You gut reaction is to want to save her from herself because you are an athiest and don't believe her religion is any good for her"

I agree, but I haven't said anything yet, because I don't take such situations lightly.

"except you, as an athiest, somehow have some vague spirituality"

How so?

"If I offended you, I'm sorry."

Please don't worry; I am not offended by what I read on the Internet.

@abge, It sounds like your friend's problem is that she is confused and doubtful, which can be a very unpleasant situation to be in. To the extent you want to help her through that without being harsh or disrespectful of her beliefs, you could do it by making sure she has adequate resources from both points of view (her own and yours, that is).

It goes without saying that if you discuss it, you'll present your own beliefs and the reasons for them. To be maximally honorable, imho, you make her aware as well (or even make sure she has) the best resources on the other side. It's hard to say what those are without knowing her specific issues; MM recommended some. William Lane Craig is well regarded (though I have not read him myself). Ideally, she would have a better pastor/priest who could talk to somebody in doubt without making them feel awful about it. Such certainly exist, and you could help her find one.

I'm not saying you don't also present your point of view, obviously. I'm just saying -- recognize that doubt is an emotionally confusing and vulnerable time, as well as just intellectually confusing, so if you want to be careful that she makes a decision for the right reasons, and not just because you're a good friend, or she's afraid, or something, see to it that somebody on the Christian side is attempting to address her concerns, as well. Or that's what I'd say. (Not that you'll go to great effort, but you can make her aware that these resources exist and she should use them).

I read an autobiography once of Christopher Robin Milne -- the little boy in the Winnie the Pooh stories. His father, the writer, was an atheist, while he was a believer. His father wanted to deconvert him, and did so by sending him an atheist book and also a Christian book. He did end up deconverting (sadly, I'd say) -- and I must say, I don't think his father actually chose a very good Christian book. But I did think it was the decent way to go about it.

(Of course, the advice I should actually give, as a Christian, is that you not talk to her at all -- doing so will only anger God, Luke 17:1-3. But since you don't believe in God, you would likely ignore this advice, so I give it only second, and parenthetically. :-)).

"...I'd like to preface this by saying that I think there is a difference between believing in a higher power (some unknown form of god) and subscribing to a particular religion. I'll admit that it's possible a god is pulling the strings..."

Uhhhh....vague spirituality, my friend. Better figure out what YOU believe before you go fucking with someone else's mind...

@semck

lol I'll take my chances with the god's wrath : ) I did find the rest you said helpful.

@krellin

No.

I think a lot of things are possible because I'm open minded and not afraid to admit I'm not firmly invested in something until there is more evidence. For instance, I think it's much more likely that aliens exist than god, but that doesn't affect how I live my life.

If you were to ask what I feel deep down, without any basis in reason, only pure feeling, I would say that when I die every part of me will vanish, except my body, which will slowly decompose. There is nothing after death. I have no doubt.

She confided in you. Does she know you are an atheist?
Have you simply offered to answer any questions on why you are and what you dislike about religion and what you think are positive parts of religion (let's face it, she'll want an unbiased opinion even though you are biased... but there ARE good parts, just not enough for you to convert, right)?

anybody ever read polkinghorne's work?

A very timely question.
The latest issue of the New Scientist has some very interesting articles around the existence or otherwise of God. Not sure if you can get in the States, but it is a very interesting issue. Here is the general link:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21328561.900-the-god-issue-new-science-of-religion.html

What comes across quite strongly, in all but one of the pieces, is that whether one believes or not, religion is often a useful social construct. Perhaps this would help?

darn good article fulhamish. :)

''William Lane Craig is well regarded ''

Yes, I fully agree, here he is debating the ever elusive Dawkins:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3HCthi2i_o&feature=related

darn good article fulhamish. :)

@ Sandgoose, thank you I am pleased you had access to them, they do indeed make interesting reading.

glad I could at least help the coversation move to something new and refreshing, though my point earlier remains the same agbe...in case you haven't read it....

Yeah, Polkinghorne's pretty interesting @sandgoose.

polkinghorne, haught, sagan and dawkins should all be read in comparrison to each other (I think) though there are others, the way they explain their views seem to compare rather well.

@FK

Yes, I'm very vocal about being an atheist.

I haven't offered anything yet. I wanted to think about what I was going to say for a couple days before I said anything.

''polkinghorne, haught, sagan and dawkins should all be read in comparrison to each other (I think) though there are others....''

@ Sandgoose I agree a couple of my favourites are Gould and Lewontin, both I believe atheists, are rather good too.
This by Lewontin is a brave and incisive critique of ''Darwinism'':

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/may/26/its-even-less-your-genes/?pagination=false

And this is one of my favourite pieces by him, the deconstruction of the peppered moth fable we all read in our school textbooks is masterful:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/may/27/not-so-natural-selection/?pagination=fals

http://bit.ly/FPXgdx

abgemacht: I guess there might be some people like that. All I can say is that's it's pretty pathetic, both for religion and for the person who decides to do something stupid, that such people are only good/sensible out of fear.

Craig is well regarded by whom? He recycles the same five points in every debate, all of which are logical leaps of the first order. He deliberately misquotes people, like Ludermann, and doesn't understand basic science or basic math.

"Sandgoose I agree a couple of my favourites are Gould and Lewontin, both I believe atheists, are rather good too.
This by Lewontin is a brave and incisive critique of ''Darwinism'':"

Speaking of recycling the same crap over & over again. Can you come up with something new besides trotting out these two useful idiots every four threads?