The difference is I can admit yes I am pushing my morals. You are denying that fact.

I am denying, it is not a fact, and I have just told you why I belive you are wrong. Do you have an answer to my question? What does pro choice take away from your personal decision?

For me to impose my morals upon you I must force you to do something different than your morality provides for. I am not.

It takes my faith in my country away. If my country can allow such atrocities to happen than I don't feel my country is making the move in the right direction. Plus Pro-choice means I have to accept the death of babies and stop fighting it.

Again, my problem is this I am talking about an issue that says we are both at fault here and you are denying it. I am not saying I am better than you I am saying we are equal. You keep denying it and saying I am pushing you. No wonder your party's symbol is the donkey, stubborn.

I have to say the republican party is just as stubborn.

Your faith in your country is not a moral stance.

And while yes, pro choicers would prefer that you accept the death of babies, we do not force you to do so. Nobody is trying to stop you from speaking your mind (or they shouldn't be, though we are all guilty of this at times). We also do not force you into any decision regarding your own babies.

Only the pro life stance forces their morality upon others, by forcing us to carry an unwanted child to term.

There is a big difference between forcing an idea upon a person versus a life changing event. Also really the abortion rate is at the lowest it been even before Roe v Wade. Making it illegal will just drive it underground and make the health risks even worse. Can we say dirty knitting needles.

HC I do not believe that these two viewpoints are equal.

In a venn diagram, my viewpoint completely encompasses yours. It allows everything you want for your own decisions, while allowing my what I want as well.

You have still not said how my morality is imposing itself on you. Do you have anything else to add to this point?

Careful with the assumptions. I never claimed to be a democrat.

....Like I said in this fight there are no winners. Yes, I won't budge but you won't either and I wasn't trying to get you to. Your beliefs are being pressed upon me and mine are being pressed upon you. Only problem is since the majority agrees with me you don't like that. America is a democracy. Unfortunatly democracy didn't stand in some states like California, but that is besides the point. The majority rules and the minority can leave or get over it. I don't move to Africa and complain about the drug cartels or slavery rings. I don't live there because I don't want to be apart of that. By the way minority is not minorities there is a difference and if America voted all around and gay-marriage passed I would be against it but I would agree that is what America should do because it was democratically approved. The problem I have is people that have a different opinion than everybody else whine how it is not fair to them. Yes, it isn't fair but its a democracy it is supposed to be as fair as possible.

Actually there is a slight majority in favor of gay marriage now over all. But on a state to state basis there's some disagreement. Also, I think the majority of people are in favor of abortion or at least letting women have the choice.

"What does pro choice take away from your personal decision?"
YJ - You are correct, it doesn't take away from anybody's personal decision. However, it can be viewed as taking away the right to life. Granted we all have different opinions for one reason or another on when that life begins which is why it is such a difficult topic for even reasonable people who disagree to discuss.

Oh and for the record I'm an independent. I don't always vote one way or the other. I do vote in most elections (I've missed a few local ones before).

Trust me it is not in the majority. It's sorta like the 99% percent protests against the rich. You may think you are the majority but your not. I am the 52% I pay my taxes and work. If my employer sees it fit to fire me. Then I shouldn't really have a say. It is his business he can run it as he sees fit. Plus trust me go to any not coastline state it is not approved by the majority. Otherwise there would be more than thousands of people at protests there would be millions.

"Your beliefs are being pressed upon me and mine are being pressed upon you."

You can repeat this as many times as you want, that doesn't make it any more true. I've told you many times why I believe you to be wrong and you've offered up no evidence as to how a pro-choice belief imposes any decision upon you. You offered up a fairly weak example which I believe I've refuted. Do you have another example, or a counterargument to my refutation? If not, then you really can't keep making this claim.

"the majority agrees with me"

To my knowledge, the majority is still in favor of pro-choice. Gay rights I dunno where we stand, but it seems clear to me that 100 years from now people are going to look back on your opinions the same way we currently look on those who used to be against interracial marriage.

Republic, not Democracy. Also, majority does not rule, at least in theory. That is why there is a Bill of Rights. 90% can vote to take away rights of the other 10%, but it should not stand even if it's the majority.

Plus the majority of the country is religious and the only religion that accepts it is hinduism.

That not true. I'm Wiccan and my faith accepts it.

josh - we've already been there and I for one have no desire to go back. This point you make is worth considering, but has nothing to do with whether I am imposing my values on others (thank you, btw for acknowledging that I am not).

Scroll up and get caught up if you like, but I'm not going to get derailed just now.

Hah, again hate filled attacks on my opinions while I just state what I believe. Like I said my belief is that you shouldn't be allowed period. Your belief doesn't stop all abortions therefore mine is counter to it.

Hinduism is the only one I knew about and unfortunatly I don't Wiccan is. I enjoy reading about different religions for the cultural side plus some are quite fascinating or others quite funny like Scientology.

Is it a splinter of another religion like Mormanism is to Christianity or is it one founded from another culture like Hinduism.

OK, well if you're just going to keep changing the subject without bothering to address my points I think I'm done. This is a far too delicate subject matter to jump around so quickly, and frankly I'm not going to let you get away with it.

By the way if you're unaware all you've really said after I chased you down convoluted logic trains is that:

1) Women should be forced to carry their rape babies to term (an outlandish, and barbaric philospohy, in my opinion)

2) The pro choice stance forces its morality upon others (which you then refuse to justify in any way)

3) Pro choicers are using hate filled speech to try and silence you (I challenge you to show where on this thread either I or celtic have done so).

And I only mock Scientology because it is about space overlords ruling over the galaxies and was started by a failed science-fiction novelist.

It's a goddess worshiping faith, more like Hinduism. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you is a big tenet. So, I accept a lot of things like gay marriage because I'd would ask them to accept things like my faith in return.

Last post. Third point and shush I actually want to hear what celtic says. Other religions have great philosophy while Aethism is rather dull.

Is it mainstream or more of an idea. Do you know the country of origin?

YJ - I've read it all, and of course you don't want to go back. It is the weakpoint in the por-choice viewpoint. Just like the whole rape/incest/health risk thing is the weakpoint for pro-life. Also, I said you aren't taking away somebody's decision. I never said you weren't imposing your values on others, you are. An unborn child has no decision to make, and it is their right to life it can be argued that pro-choice infringes upoun.

I am not taking one side or the other because neither side will ever win since when life begins is ambiguous. I am just debating the other side. It is late good night all.

Actually I don't like to talk about my faith much, because it's a pretty private thing. I'm a solitary practitioner. The thing about paganism is that it can vary from person to person a lot. So even if I say something another Wiccan may feel differently.

Well not really main stream and it takes concept from the ancient celtics and greeks but is a modern religion.