Still though, assuming that we are all one person, it'd be very hard to type up those messages and log in and out in the time frame your giving us.

And before more people reads the topic of this thread and instantly hates our guts - actually see the scenario's posted above before making your decisions, were all in wars with other countries and kangaroo wanted me to betray russia, and possibly england as well as fight italy and austria.

thats 4 countries, now anyone, if you can tell me you would do that even after looking at our positions on the mao, then i'm just a coward for this 1 battle, but if you understand it's virtually impossible for us to fight on multiple fronts, then please dont think ill of us, we arent playing to cheat, we find this game fun and interesting.

And to be fair it makes you not want to even play this game when your being accused of cheating, other people have told me to just ignore it, but its a little hard to >.> even after 91 messages, Kangaroo has failed to give anyone proof of our meta gaming, hes just sour because he told england i would betray them by lying to me, but i'm not moronic enough to just fall for anything.

I've said it before, it doesn't matter if they'are one person or three, if they make exactly the same alliance every single game and never attack each other (until they are all that's left) then as far as everyone playing against them is concerned, they might as well be one single person. One person acting as three, or three acting as one, they have exactly the same unfair advantage to win.

It is equally unfair and thus in my view equally cheating.

But its only in 1 game, and we only made the alliance because of the given circumstances, i know what meta gaming is, but every other game i'm in with BOTH of them, i have betrayed/attacked one of them.

I know your just stating an opinion, but at least read up the facts before you start on your mass campaigns against cheaters, i'm sure everyone here has at some point made a 3 way alliance, in 1 game or another, and i'm also damn sure you've played with the same people once or twice.

Its hard to aviod the same people when your all looking for low bet games, i'm in several games with gman, betrayed and killed him in most of them - am i cheating there as well, i've seen contrassbassnerd in 2 games, again - am i liable for cheating.

If you havent noticed, the majority of people are passed on in all the games i'm in, most likely because we all started roughly at the same time and so we naturally joined up in the games we saw available.

If it's only one game then I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about people who make the same alliances with their friends in every single game to give themselves an unfair advantage.

If that doesn't apply to you, why get so defensive?

I've played with lots of people, I've been around a while, but there isn't one single person on this site who can say I ALWAYS ally with them or ALWAYS attack them.

Can you, your buddies, or any of the other little gangs out there honestly say the same?

As the dialogue proceeds the guilt of XiangYu/Fearless is becoming more and more apparent!

You admitted having two accounts at the same time which, I last checked, is still forbidden here in phpdiplomacy.

As for Smokodanko the forum troll, I reserve my right to sue you for sexual harassment!

Justine

Actually no, i left my fearless account and i informed Kestas of my actions before i made my new account, i said to destroy all accounts i had made then and in the past since i have a total of 3, laotzu, fearless and xiangyu

you can say i'm guilty, but this entire thread is based on me being accused of meta gaming or cloning, do not try and twist the realisation to win you a point justine, it wont work.

You say the guilt is more apparant, prove it you dim wit and stop accusing me of it, i'm sick of being accused of something NO ONE CAN PROVE, i might as well call you a cloning, hacking cheater, just for the fun of it.

Dont ever try and manipulate my words because you'll fail every fucking time, when anyone can show me a scenario that i meta gamed, you can all just go fuck yourselves, i'm through trying to be *nice* about defending myself, you got an issue, consult kestas.

oh i'm sorry..kestas doesnt really care about this entire thread otherwise he wudda posted or punished me.

I hear foul language...not exactly right in a forum of a civilised game.

Guys, can you get your panties out of whatever twist they are in? Seriously, its one game.

Now, time for proof, since you guys can't shut up about it. And if I hear one more "you are getting defensive THEREFORE YOU ARE AT FAULT" bullshit argument, I'll make sure to get Kestas on this immediately for harassment of other players.

So, to prove we aren't always allying;
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=3202

There. I'm Austria, he's Italy. He had no real reason to attack me, other than that I'm his neighbor. We started out NAP, and he broke it. He'll win.

There, I'm in 5 games, 3 of which are with him. In the other two, our alliances make sense (Russia/Germany, Germany/France), where as in this one, an alliance between Italy and Austria makes less sense.

Stop bitching people. If we played every game together (which we don't, check my games) and allied, I would understand. However, so far, all you've gone to prove is that this community is hostile, and that some less than savory members should probably be taken out; and they weren't the ones who were accused, but the accusers.

Sorry, just wanted to post the 100th reply :p

lol...:-) interesting thread. Lot of defense going on. I am confused however. A few messages up, an admission of playing in one game was made. Now i see its 4? Sorry to ask, GuanShao, but just wanted clarification on which admission is true? Thanks guys

there is one game in question that he says we are meta gaming in. I also am not in 4 games with him (To my rememberance, if I am, forgive me).

we're solid allies in two of them because they make sense.

We lose either way. If we defend our innocence, we are accused of defending because we are "guilty". If we don't defend, we'd have been called cowards, afraid to defend ourselves because we are "guilty". I see more sense in defending ourselves and giving everyone the facts and truth. That way lies dont get spread around about us.

I've been playing this game for a year now. I quit after a while and came back to my account about a month ago. Xiang Yu saw how much I enjoyed playing, so he joined too. I cant believe that people are still accusing us of being the same person! Like he said, you want all 3 of our msn address? We'll all three go online and talk to you at the exact same time if you wish.

Also, everyone usually has at least one ally in every game. Whats the difference if Player A and Player B allied one time, or every game they played together? If it makes sense and they know that the other is a good ally, why wouldn't they want to ally? Every game will have sets of allies, why does it matter who it is? Each game is different and will play out differently. So how is it an unfair advantage if I ally with XiangYu or someone completely different? That person would still be my ally right? You cant tell me that allying with someone you know is a good ally to you is cheating. I can see if you get groups of 3 or 4 friends allying repeatedly being considered cheating or metagaming, because it is. But one other person? Everyone has at least one ally usually. And before you start on me with the "well you allied with 2 people in that game", its ONE GAME!!! I attacked GuanShao in the only other game that I'm in with him! People need to get a life and stop complaining about pointless stuff thats not even true.

It's not true that everyone has at least one ally that they carry into different games. Most good players pick and choose different allies in each game depending on their position and who's help they need. The game dictates who you ally with, if anything outside the game is affecting your decision, that is metagaming.

Of course if you have just signed up with some friends you will probably work together in your first game. But after that you should be attacking each other at least as often as you help each other. And of course two players who have worked well together before are more likely to see the benefits in working together again. But that trust is a double-edged sword, because the people who trust you the most are the most vulnerable to a well-timed stab. Where there are no stabs, there has to be a suspicion of metagaming.

You are not learning anything about Diplomacy if you don't negotiate with players you don't know, and depend instead on your mates to see you through. The whole point of the diplomatic angle to this game is that each player is in a perpetual state of uncertainty as to whether any other player is a friend or an enemy. If you take away that uncertainty, however you do it - multiaccounting, or metagaming - it's an unfair advantage and it's NOT Diplomacy.

...

You completely missed what I meant. I didn't say that everyone has someone they carry into different games. I'm saying that everyone makes different allies in each game. So whats the difference if you ally with someone you know or someone you don't? Of course people shouldnt ally with the same person everytime if it doesn't benefit them. Why would England and Turkey want to ally with each other even if they are friends? There is no point to that. But if you know someone is a good ally and you are England and they are France, then wouldn't you think it most logical to ally with them? Just because we played in a few games together and it benefited us to ally now we are metagamers? How about you look at games like DHS Winner Takes All, or Britinica? I betrayed GuanShao in the first, and I'm not allied with XiangYu in Britinica. If you look at my games, I'm in 10. Xiang Yu is only in 3, and Guan Shao is only in 2, and I betrayed him in 1. So go on, continue calling us metagamers. The three of us ally in one game ever and people go nuts about it because one person got all pissy about it. Thanks guys.

Noodlebug, I do ally with other people.

So, your ENTIRE argument is null and void.

I've grasped the idea of diplomacy quite well, i allied with gman, and then executed a perfectly timed betrayal that had pushed me in the lead on 2 games, i also turned on grandconqueror who later said well done for betraying him since it was in my benefits.

I enjoy betraying people, i enjoy manipulating people more but hey, you ally only whilst it benefits you, no?

I stay an ally to someone only until i see either openings in their defences or if betraying them will bag me a win or a bunch of SC's

Dont think my alliance with Guan Shao or Zalyana is concrete, whilst it benefits us we'll keep at it, but when either me or Zalyana is pushed for room, we WILL turn on each other, i only allies with england so that i could hit france, since we all know if france and germany stock-pile your there for AGES trying to claim anything.

What we did was beneficial and has not been repeated in any other games, i have many different allies and many different enemies, those who have issues with it, well they can learn how to play. These accusations of meta-gaming CAN NOT be proved, and until they do, i suggest others to keep out of it, unless your asking a question which then will be answered.

But i'm surprise Noodle your so edgy about this whole thing, your throwing your experianced words in our faces, and half of them are completely irrelevant, its like you detest cheaters so much 1 FALSE accusation is enough for you to start making enemies..well dont, thats hardly DIPLOMATIC is it >.>

learn facts FIRST, start bitching SECOND.

dont worry about noodle, he is on a crusade. yes, if its looking like the thread maybe about anything vaguely related to the possibility of metagamng then noodle is bound to pop up. what he says is true but not exactly related to your one game situation. don't worry about kangaroo either. whining is not an admirable trait in children let alone grown men.
my advice...drop it, don't reply to this post. let the thread die.

the more you post the more people will just read the thread title and later when they come acros you in a game will think "oh those guys, read somewhere they were metagamers".
people wont bother to read this whole thread to get the facts.

the ones who will read the thread in total, the people posting, have made up their minds already.
let it go.

Okay Sean, i'll respect your honest advice on the matter and let it drop. Thank you for your honesty in this wild affair, oh and thanks for the support you offered with the maps i made for the site ^_^

How can you say my entire argument is null and void just because you say it doesn't apply to you? Everything I have said has been in general terms, I've made no allegations against individuals, but it does not follow that just because you claim not to be a metagamer, therefore metagaming isn't wrong.

If someone was arguing against murder, and I said I'm not a murderer, therefore everything you say is null and void... everyone would think I was crazy!

Your logic is extremely bizarre!

Metagaming is wrong, and allying with the same people repeatedly is an unfair way to approach this game. I stand by everything I have said, and I say your counter-argument is null and void!

oh and murder is wrong too. Even though I am not a murderer.

Incidently I would just like to point out (whilst joining in this 'discussion' at the fear of being left out) that Noodles comments are spot on.
At the end of the day though this is just a game and we have to suffer the needs of some to abuse the system to their own benefit.

Noodlebug is right, you will get a lot of people who join 'together' as a friend may invite them, and for their first game (maybe even two) then it is not really unexpected that they may form allies with their friends to 'get into' the game, but after that first game or so they really need to realise that they have to treat each game, and each player as an individual and a fresh start.
Whilst you will never get away from Human Nature to trust the people they know can be trusted, and in some respects taking an ally into another game is not the worst thing in the world, I do feel that people owe the game more respect by either making an affirmed choice to treat each person fairly, or to at least avoid playing 'too many' games with friends they know in real life.

The Argument about 'knowing people around a Real Life Game' doesn't hold so well in phpDip simply because of the dynamic and the medium on which it is played.

And like Noodlebug will no doubt tell you, the more you put into the game in terms of attacking play and being 'unreadable' to your opponents and your friends the far more your will appreciate the game and get things out of it.

If you always ally with your friends and then steamroller the game then what joy would it bring you apart from a couple of points shared?

Incidently I am not really pointing fingers at anyone above, it would seem Xiang, Guansho etc are all very nice people who don't cheat at all, but the whole conversation (admittedly mainly due to Kangaroo) seems to have become very petty and to be honest to you all you are doing yourselves no favours in the 'grown up conversational' stakes! So probably best to let it go, in my opinion (and it is only my opinion) whilst there seems to be a legitimate undercurrent to the argument, the whole issue does seem to have come about simply as a case of sour grapes from a player who perhaps didn't get what they wanted...I wanted to give that player (Kangaroo) the benefit of the doubt at first, but the tirade that he/she went on really put me off the argument...

I also would like to agree 100% with Pandora, I would like my 5/10 minutes back as well please :) :)

Best of luck to all of you.

A very interesting thread that has accompanied us through the boring web-surfing days.

PMSL :) I was thinking the same thing, where would we be without these inane but obviously enthralling discussions :)

Thanks for backing me up DeathOfRats but in fairness we should disclose that we know each other from outside this site..! (and so far we've been allies for about half a game turn!).

Noodle, I meant your argument against us was null and void, and i'm pretty sure you knew that too ;)

It doesn't matter. Kangaroo has 'allied' me in the game he's bitching about, so really, he was basically looking for an escape plan.

bump

you guys should put your 2 cents in on the materialism thread

why isn't anybody discussing this anymore... is the game finished?