Forum
A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
Page 76 of 1419
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Farcus189 (505 D)
09 Mar 08 UTC
bobby wobby
the unit placing phase was skipped pleas check thanks
5 replies
Open
ryanwsmith (108 D)
09 Mar 08 UTC
Bug Report
In game Go Chargers (http://www.phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=2973) I (Germany) was unable to place units last fall, even though I've got 14 supply depots and only 13 units... anyone know why this might be?
0 replies
Open
abab (1312 D)
09 Mar 08 UTC
Bug in support move orders?
I cannot upload the third field of any support move orders in http://www.phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=2879.
I submit the filled fields, they stay pink and never turn white, while my browser hangs on. Has anybody else experienced such a problem?
Thanks for your attention.
0 replies
Open
thewonderllama (100 D)
09 Mar 08 UTC
Tournament Update
It's been a while since anything's been said about the Grand Festive Diplomacy Tournament in the forum, so I thought I'd give an update.

We're in the midst of round 2. We seem to have lost two players to CD and one player only joined one of his games, but otherwise things have been going smoothly. A few of the games seem to be nearing completion, but there are still a few very interesting games going on. If you're interested in checking them out, visit the official tournament page at: http://www.llamanation.org/grandfestivediplomacytournament2007. That will have as up-to-date information on the tournament as I've written anywhere.

If the links tell you you're not a member of the game and don't show you the map, remove the www. from the game url's and they should work, thanks to an interesting quirk of phpdip.

I'll post updates in this thread as games complete and once the players moving on to the finals have been decided.
2 replies
Open
tangchinkit1900 (100 D)
09 Mar 08 UTC
I lost the army in the game omgwtfbbqhax
My newly set up army disappears in Munich of game omgwtfbbqhax

Please settle as soon as possible.

My ID is tangchinkit1900

Regards,
Frankie
0 replies
Open
Thucydides (864 D(B))
09 Mar 08 UTC
How do you know if its a winner-take all game?
Is there a way to tell by looking?
0 replies
Open
el_maestro (14722 D(B))
09 Mar 08 UTC
Builds' mouvement Arrows have gone away since upgrading
When replaying game steps (Spring01-Autumn01, Spring02-Autumn02 etc) Builds' mouvement Arrows are missing. Very difficult to figure out what happened during rouns.
0 replies
Open
Thucydides (864 D(B))
09 Mar 08 UTC
New Turn Length
Are the 48-hour turn lengths intentional? I can get used to it I'm just wondering.

In my games everything is running smoothly and I am very appreciative of supporting convoys and no self-displacement. However I am curious as to how the map will replace Game Master tab. Anyway I'm sure that will resolve itself, my main question is about the new turn lengths. I hadn't heard Kestas mention that so I'm curious.
3 replies
Open
amathur2k (100 D)
09 Mar 08 UTC
Issues with the global tab
+1 on the spain thing.
I cant see anything on the global (earlier gamemaster) tab. data for the latest moves is missing. and oh i just noticed posting has become much nicer with text neatly fitting inside the box and moving to the next line automatically. Thanks !!
1 reply
Open
Thucydides (864 D(B))
09 Mar 08 UTC
Spain
Can I just say, Kestas, THANK YOU for fixing the Spain coast thing. You have no idea how much this is appreciated.
0 replies
Open
el_maestro (14722 D(B))
09 Mar 08 UTC
Why "End of phase" delay got so long ?
Why "End of phase" delay got so long ?
When creating a game, the creator should set the "End of phase" frequency.
0 replies
Open
Sparky McGee (353 D)
09 Mar 08 UTC
Bug Glitch in Abgemacht
Abgemacht
Autumn 1904, Unit-placing
By my count I should be placing two units, but "The game" is informing me that I have nothing to do this round. We are also in a 40 hour turn, which seems a bit long to me.
4 replies
Open
ryanwsmith (108 D)
09 Mar 08 UTC
Bug report
In the game go Chargers (http://www.phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=2973) Germany has 14 supply centers, and 13 units, but during unit placing it says "You have no orders to enter this turn".... Also, it shows 34 hours left for this phase... anyone know why this might be?
2 replies
Open
el_maestro (14722 D(B))
09 Mar 08 UTC
Following Upgrade of phpdiplomacy all have been Fuck up.
Following Upgrade of phpdiplomacy all have been Fuck up.
All my games i am in are upside down
2 replies
Open
Pandora (100 D)
06 Mar 08 UTC
Religion
sean posted asking about everyones political leanings, I was wondering about peoples religion
208 replies
Open
nelsnelson (100 D)
09 Mar 08 UTC
Suggestion to Help
hello,
1st time phpDiplomacy player, taking advantage of the great service, provided, thanks.
I am sure things will become clear once we begin, but at the moment I am curious about the time length of the Periods and cannot find that info in the Rules area. May I suggest that it be added?

Sincerely,
Nels
2 replies
Open
Mussolini (125 D)
08 Mar 08 UTC
Public Apology to all players affected by my meta gaming before.
Dear Kestas and all phpDiplomacy players,

I am here to apologise and say sorry to all players affected by my meta gamings before. Sorry for all inconveniences and unpleasure caused.

In order to show my sincere repentance, I will stop playing all the acounts.

I will start a new account, try to avoid playing with my classmates, or play with them in password games,
to enjoy the pleasure brought by this wonderful game with all phpDiplomacy players.

I hope that everyone will forgive me and let me repent, change and start over in this game again.

Hope that you will accept my public apology.

Thank you for all your attentions.

(Forgive me that my English sucks too:))

Jason
13 replies
Open
Troutface (100 D)
09 Mar 08 UTC
Its the Trouut
Join plz! 75 buy in and lets get the dip goin!
0 replies
Open
happyklim (154 D)
05 Mar 08 UTC
Soothing Ocean Sounds...and silent_hunter...Multi-accounts?
Boludo!!!!2 Spring 1909, Diplomacy
End of phase: in 24 hours
Pot: 74
Players:

Napoleon Bonaparte (18) as England (): 1 units
Last logged in: Tue 11 PM
Monk of Majere (83) as France
Last logged in: Fri 22 Feb
SoothingOceanSounds (85) as Italy (): 11 units
Last logged in: 09:51 PM
happyklim (0) as Germany (): 9 units
Last logged in: 10:13
silent_hunter (84) as Austria (): 12 units
Last logged in: 10:13
timchau (64) as Turkey
Last logged in: Mon 10 PM
pokemon trainer (90) as Russia
Last logged in: Mon 05 AM


And look at their join dates...9th Feb and 10th Feb...and in that game, they never seem to backstab when the situation seems perfect.
Check...
25 replies
Open
sean (3490 D(B))
08 Mar 08 UTC
NEW Players - FEB/MAR
I've noticed a lot of new names in the games recently. Welcome to PhpDip.
how about you guys introduce yourselves and tell us a bit about your dip exp etc.
19 replies
Open
keeper0018 (100 D)
07 Mar 08 UTC
Kestas, please draw game "Megatron"
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gid=2938&msgmembershipid=16859

The others will post their agreement there. I'm Austria.
4 replies
Open
sean (3490 D(B))
06 Mar 08 UTC
white russia and the map
im sure this has been asked bef0re but why isnt russia white? isnt it white in the board game? it didnt look good? how about a cream/beige?
ive always thought the phpdip board a little too dark. some ligher colours might make it look nicer. and if it was lighter that would allow germany to be black...a much cooler looking colour than brown.
8 replies
Open
positron (1160 D)
09 Mar 08 UTC
Suggestions for Kestas
Countries in CD should defend themselves. Units that can should hold support each other.

In the fall, countries without SCs, that cannot retreat into an open SC, should not be asked to retreat and disband. Too many players don't finalize those steps. The remaining players get to wait 48 hours.
3 replies
Open
Mussolini (125 D)
08 Mar 08 UTC
Replying to people who always accuse, me, timchau, happyklim or other players in my class.
Let me explain to you guys about me and the players in my class first:

I am from Hong Kong, China.

I am in F.3, i.e. grade 9

My classmates playing phpDiplomacy include:

1. myself

2. saradomian

3. Gobbledydook

4. Chairman Mao

5. kn2005

6. timchau

7. happyklim

8. jasperleeabc

9.galaxypheonix

We are in the same class, and gobbledydook introduces this game to me. Soon, many of my classmates join, and we also like playing together. Playing in the the same game is not forbidden.

So I sincerely hope that you guys will stop making up things like we all are meta gaming.

Replying to sean:

Sometimes our classmate dosen't have enough points or don't want to play such low pot games. Also, some of us don't have too much time to play so many games. So, if we want to play private games, we would rather play the game on paper during the lesson... or free time :D

I hope this will answer all the questions to all of us.
7 replies
Open
Chrispminis (916 D)
04 Mar 08 UTC
Babysitter Wanted!
So, I'm going away for five days to Montreal during March break, and I'm looking for someone to take care of my account during the period. I'm only in one game, and it's basically a guaranteed win, so it's very low maintenance.

I'll be gone from March 7th to March 12th. E-mail me at [email protected] if you think you can take this job. Only two requirements, that you be relatively known and trustworthy, and obviously you aren't participating in my one game...

Thanks in advance!

- Chris
34 replies
Open
Gobbledydook (1389 D(B))
08 Mar 08 UTC
End of phase: 25 hours???
GFDT R2 G3 Spring 1911, Diplomacy
End of phase: in 25 hours
Pot: 29
Players:

Gobbledydook (157) as England (): 4 units
figlesquidge (1878) as France (): 11 units
Civil Disorder Italy (100) as Italy
ravendevil (617) as Germany
thewonderllama (283) as Austria (): 17 units
TheMaster (92) as Turkey
Chrispminis (980) as Russia
Enter game
1 reply
Open
kestasjk (95 DMod(P))
08 Mar 08 UTC
Downtime
phpDip had about 2 hours of downtime today, because Dreamhost made a typo in their core router config. The games have been set to have 2 hours more time
0 replies
Open
Pandora (100 D)
07 Mar 08 UTC
Alive in the land of the dead
an essay by sicarius. If you are not interested do not read. simple huh?
35 replies
Open
Iggy24 (151 D)
08 Mar 08 UTC
Join iggster
51 pt game! PLZ JOIN!
0 replies
Open
sean (3490 D(B))
27 Feb 08 UTC
bored at work politics thread
Was wondering about the people who play on this site, their politcal leanings. im a good ol` Anarcho-Syndicalist myself.
but from a few mumbles and other hints im guess there is a quite widespread community of right wing nut jobs on this site too;)
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Theophilus (100 D)
03 Mar 08 UTC
a HOUSE of sand...? I think you mean FOUNDATION...?
Pandora (100 D)
03 Mar 08 UTC
firstly yes there is a population problem. I encourage you to do some research, as I'm sure any you do will prove me right.
now I have heard alot of your points, so here is the 5 most common objections to Primitivism, and why they’re wrong


1. Isn’t it hypocritical of primitivists to use modern technology? If they want to live primitively so badly, why don’t they just run off into the woods already and do it?
Not all primitivists are against technology in and of itself; only some. Many primitivists hold a view that technology is ambiguous. Technology is found among all “primitive” peoples to one extent or another, so obviously there is some sustainable level of technology. There is great disagreement among primitivists as to where that level is, but all agree that it isn’t our current level. Yes, we would like to see a lower level of technology, but since we have no problem with technology itself, why would we abstain from the use of our current, unsustainable technologies while they remain? One does not need to believe that a hammer is the greatest achievement of mankind, a miracle that ennobles us above all other animals and justifies our dominion over the earth, in order to use it to drive in a nail, after all. Neither does a computer. One can value science highly and still not believe that it is the sole or highest arbiter of truth; these are not mutually exclusive. And one can use the internet to spread the message that “the internet” and the infrastructure that supports it, is not going to last.
So, the charge of hypocrisy only holds up if we extend the beliefs of some primitivists to all primitivists, or to primitivism itself. What of the second question–why don’t primitivists run off into the woods already?
There are two issues here; the first is education. We were all raised within civilization, which has a vested interest in ensuring its children have as little independent survival value as possible. The civilized cultural system has adapted well–it reinforces itself mimetically in precisely those areas where individuals are closest to self-sufficiency, creating a feeling of dependence even where little actual dependence exists. Regardless, most primitivists no more possess the skills of survival than your average suburbanite–skills every six year old “primitive” would have. Most primitivists are working to remedy that situation, but in the same way that you wouldn’t tell a! Kung man with dreams of brokering stock to just go to Wall Street already, but to learn a thing or two about the stock market first, so we are learning the skills we will need before hanging our lives on such skills. “Running off into the woods already” is a goal, ultimately, but one we must work towards, not one we can simply pick up and go with. If it were that easy, well, you wouldn’t be reading this, I can tell you that.
Secondly, there is the issue of lands and laws. Civilization has precluded “running off into the woods” as an option fairly well. Hunting regulations pose serious encumberments, to say nothing of the fact that some meager income must be maintained to pay for hunting and fishing licenses, as well as taxes on land. Ultimately, such a “micro-collapse” is impossible so long as civilization still exists–the pressing needs of ever-increasing complexity will lead to our re-absorption, by force if necessary. There is the essential problem; if civilization were willing to coexist with us, we would be happy to return the favor. But ultimately, civilization is incapable of letting anything but itself exist. We’re happy to live alongside anyone who’s willing to live alongside us–but civilization is not. “Running off into the woods,” so long as civilization remains, merely ensures our eventual, violent destruction at civilization’s hands.
2. We have a stable, abundant supply of food. Primitivists want us to spend our lives desperate as to where our next meal is coming from.
Why, then, is it only agriculturalists who starve? In fact, civilization’s food supply has always been shaky and meager. It is only recently that industrialized nations have increased production sufficiently to reap the benefits of “affluent malnutrition.” That’s the key to the success of modern life. We still eat things that are terribly maladapted to our physiology, but we eat them in prodigious quantities, allowing us to stay alive (if constantly sickly and degenerative) for the normal human lifespan of about 70 years, surpassing the average lifespan of medieval European nobility, but still slightly shy of our Mesolithic ancestors.
As the elite of the world system, the industrialized world is able to enjoy this standard of living because the non-industrialized world suffers chronic malnutrition and starvation. By contrast, foragers are transhumant omnivores–as well as being some of the most adaptable creatures on the planet. Foragers make their home among the islands of Tierra del Fuego, the frozen wastes of the Arctic, the Kalahari Desert, and the thick jungles of the Congo–among areas so remote and desolate no crop would ever grow. To starve out foragers would require the end of nearly all multicellular life on this planet in the kind of mass extinction never before seen. By contrast, to starve out a bunch of farmers requires a slightly dry summer.
The idea that agriculture provides an abundant, stable food supply is demonstrably false. It is a myth. Agriculturalists rely on a small number of domesticable species–and those species tend to be closely related to one another, as well. It’s the fallacy of “putting all of your eggs in one basket.” By comparison, foragers rely not only on a much larger number of species, but a much wider diversity of species, as well. So, in fact, primitivists are advocating that we give up a highly unreliable and meager supply of food, for a supply that is genuinely stable and abundant.
3. Primitivism would mean a drastic reduction in quality of life–no more medicine, no more art or music. Instead, you get euthanasia, astronomical infant mortality, and a life expectancy of about 30.
The “euthanasia” charge comes from the Inuit, who were once slandered as leaving their elderly to die on ice floes. In fact, it was a rare custom, but a form of voluntary self-sacrifice that elders sometimes engaged in for the good of their bands, despite the pleading protestations of the rest of the band. The Inuit are full of such exceptions that prove the rule, because even for a forager, the arctic is a harsh and unforgiving place.
The infant mortality has simply been completely misrepresented, though. Yes, infant mortality among foragers is high–but not for the reasons such a statement would seem to imply. It is not because of disease or malnutrition–quite the opposite, as these things are fairly peculiar to civilized societies. Rather, just as we argue whether life begins at conception or at birth, foragers believe that life does not begin until, usually, the age of two. Foragers look at infanticide much the same way we do abortion. Among the !Kung, a pregnant woman goes into labor, and walks off into the bush (I’m told that childbirth is significantly less an ordeal among those who are not malnourished–affluently or otherwise). Maybe she comes back with a child; maybe she doesn’t. Either way, no questions are asked. So, our calculations of forager lifespans are quite unfair–if we’re going to include their infanticide, then we must include our own abortions. To do otherwise would simply be ethnocentric. In fact, when we do that, we see that forager lifespans are as long as, and sometimes longer, than our own.
The charge on medicine is common, but utterly anthropocentric. In the anthropology of medicine, one refers to “ethno medicine”–whatever a given culture considers to be “medicine.” Given the overlap of food-as-medicine, this can be as arbitrary as how a culture divides up the color spectrum. Western biomedicine is our ethno medicine. Every culture believes that their ethno medicine is the only valuable one, and all others are naught but silly superstition. This is simply ethnocentrism. At the root of the claim that primitivism precludes medicine is precisely this ethnocentrism. In fact, when we look at the actual efficacy of the various ethno medicines in the world, there’s very little variation. Most ethno medicines are quite effective, just like ours; most have one or more area where they fail utterly (ours tries to ignore placebo rather than use it; shamanism is the opposite, but has no concept of surgery, etc.), and all end up being roughly interchangeable if one is only concerned with efficacy. So, by no means does primitivism require the end of medicine–it merely means a radically different, but equally effective, form of medicine. In fact, if we attempt a syncretic type of medicine that seeks to combine the best of several ethno medicines, we may actually come up with one of the first medical systems that actually are more effective.
Finally, the charge that primitivism would mean the end of art and music is patently false. Art, music and the rest were universal among primitive peoples for 30,000 years before civilization even began. They have had these things for four times as long as civilization has even existed. The cave art as Lasceaux is easily comparable to Michelangelo, and the Pygmy tribes of the Congo sing songs with a polyphonic complexity that Europe did not match until the 14th century. One can only claim that primitive peoples have no art or music if we ethnocentrically define “art” and “music” to mean, “it only counts if a white guy did it.” In Savages & Civilization, Jack Weatherford makes the case that the scientific, artistic, musical and philosophical achievements of civilization were all inspired by our contact with savages. Primitivists believe that, if it is at all possible to call any culture “superior,” then it must be that of the primitives–those who inspired all of our greatest achievements, and suffer none of our worst flaws.
4. Primitivists are misanthropic.
This charge requires a unique definition of “misanthropic,” but it is usually attached to the next objection, below. To make this statement, the speaker first conflates humanity and civilization with some mythology about civilization being mankind’s natural destiny, rather than the momentary abberation it truly is. In fact, domesticated Homo sapiens exists in a pitiful state of captivity, bound to a moribund existence to which she is entirely maladapted. Humans in the wild experience a level of freedom and fullness of life that is incomprehensible to their domesticated brethren, just as Plato’s protagonist could not explain the outside world to those poor wretches chained to the wall in the allegory of the cave. The goal of primitivism is rewilding, that is, to return as many domesticated Homo sapiens to that happy, natural state as possible.
To the primitivist, it is, in fact, the progressivist who is misanthropic. It is the progressivist who claims that the natural state of humanity is to labor for the benefit of others and to be subject to despots–at best, kind-hearted and duly-elected despots, but despots all the same. It is the progressivist who thinks that humanity is not sufficient in itself, but must be ennobled by Science and Reason, redeemed from his fallen state of primitive fear and violence by Technology. The progressivist sees nothing but misery in our past, a savage in our soul that must be denied and sublimated, and for our future, a cold, aloof godhood, an apotheosis by nanotechnology, and the alienation of dominion over the earth that precludes ever being part of it. The progressivist takes a very dim view of the human being indeed: her passions must be denied, her nature is savage and must be sublimated, her natural state is a never-ending Hobbesian nightmare.
The primitivist knows all of this is so many fairy tales. We know that primitive societies live in no such nightmare, but are, in fact, as Marshal Sahlins put it, “the original affluent society.” We know that we are not the forgotten children of evolution, the only species of all the earth left without an easy adaptation to the world. We know that human nature is neither demonic, nor angelic. We do not see humanity as something fallen that must be fixed–whether by faith in some number of gods (whether many, one, or none at all), or by Reason, or by Technology. We believe that being human is a wonderful thing. We can also see that the progressivist agenda has shackled humanity, that civilization dehumanizes us and strips us of all those things that are so good about our species.
It was for this abiding faith in humanity and our conviction that humanity is most emphatically not broken, and neither is it in need of us to “fix” it, that I chose the name “Anthropik” for our tribe. The term “humanist” might have done just as well, had it not been adopted (rather inappropriately, to my mind) by a particular camp of progressivists, but as it is, it plays well against the term “misanthropy.” Progressivists are misanthropic; it is primitivists who are anthropic.
5. Primitivists are genocidal maniacs whose planned “utopia” requires them to orchestrate the mass murder of 99% of the human population!
I’ve saved the best for last. This is the single most common, and the single most powerful attack launched against primitivists by the progressivist camp.
It is undeniably true that the world’s population cannot be sustained without modern civilization. Of course, it is abundantly clear that modern civilization is not sustainable, either. Given those two facts, then some kind of massive die-off is inevitable. It might be through genocide, but since primitvists are a fringe of a fringe (and will always be so) it’s unlikely to come from us. There are many other parties with a much greater interest in genocide for its own sake, who are far closer to power than we will ever be. Ultimately, genocide might be the kindest method, just as it is kind to deliver a coup de grace to a dying animal. The alternative is to waste away by hunger or disease. But ultimately, genocide on such a scale would be nigh impossible, and though die-off is guaranteed, it is almost as guaranteed not to come by way of genocide.
Rather, collapse is more likely to occur as it always has. The diminishing returns of complexity lead to the breakdown of civilization, until some minor turbulence that might have been easily overcome in a former time, instead ends our civilization–the way an AIDS victim dies not of AIDS, but of some minor disease a healthy person would have easily shrugged off. Perhaps Peak Oil, perhaps global warming, whatever the proximate cause, our ability to produce food will be cut off. Starvation will lead to food riots, until, in the end, the survivors will turn to cannibalism. The cities will be killing fields, but those who can look at the wilderness and call it home, those who can find their food without having someone grow it for them–those who are rewilded–will have access to vast resources that no others will even think to exploit.
This is the way evolution has always worked. The “oxygen holocaust” was caused by the abundance of microbes that breathed carbon dioxide, and exhaled oxygen. Eventually, they changed the very composition of the atmosphere, and began to choke and die in the toxic environment. But those microbes that were adapted and could actually breathe the toxic oxygen emerged and proliferated, striking a balance with their forebears, the carbon dioxide breathing microbes, and beginning the oxygen cycle that regulates our atmosphere today. So, too, the collapse will permanently end civilization, and with it the dehumanizing domestication and captivity of Homo sapiens, leaving only rewilded humans to inherit the earth.
The fanciful genocide scenario is embraced by some primitivists, but this is quite patently madness–and unspeakably wicked. As I said, for those who die, dying quickly of a gunshot may be preferable to dying slowly of hunger and disease, or living to see their cities torn apart by warring gangs of cannibals. However, there is an evolutionary elegance to the collapse that such an alternative violates. Every individual on earth will have a choice. They will be free to choose to remain part of their culture to the bitter end, and die with it; or, they wll have the choice to embrace a new culture, embrace their own humanity, and survive into a new world. An act of active genocide violates that. The one who perpetrates such an act elevates himself to the status of a god (as the progressivists would do, only without their silly, illogical, anthropocentric qualms distinguishing between humans and all other life on the planet), to dictate who should live and who should die. This is why I believe Ted Kazcinski is evil: besides the complete counter-effectiveness of his campaign of terror, he committed the ultimate sin, the sin of civilization itself. He placed himself in the role of a god, dictating life and death.
Most will choose to die; we cannot change that. It would be just as wrong to force them to choose life as it was for Kaczinski to force others to die. What we can do is try as hard as we can to make sure everyone understands that it truly is a choice they face.
When hearing this defense, many progressivists will claim that our willingness to “allow” such a thing to happen is characterized as monstrous. First, the hubris dripping from such a statement is absurd; we do not “allow” such things to happen any more than we “allow” the sun to shine or the rain to fall. By comparison, a progressivist tries to dream up ways to control the weather, while a primitivist makes an umbrella or some sun screen. There is the difference between us; progressivists aspire to such divine control, where primitivists accede and accept that they are part of the world, not gods of it.
Theophilus (100 D)
03 Mar 08 UTC
In addition, Freud really was stupid. The reason he is so foundational to the modern world is because he was the first to really think about psychology. Almost all of his "discoveries" have been disproven in recent times.
Theophilus (100 D)
03 Mar 08 UTC
I said nothing about primitivism. I am not a primitivist, nor was I attempting to advocate it before. In addition, according to Plato, those who have discovered "true happiness", instead of simply sitting down and enjoying it will sacrifice their own enjoyment to help guide others to this "true happiness"
Theophilus (100 D)
03 Mar 08 UTC
Indeed, if you will notice, I was advocating the use of our technologies to gain "god-like" control over the population at large.
Pandora (100 D)
03 Mar 08 UTC
I know you were
fwancophile (164 D)
03 Mar 08 UTC
disproven? you apparently aren't up to speed on cognitive science :P
Pandora (100 D)
03 Mar 08 UTC
you'll have to be more specific if you expect a reply
fwancophile (164 D)
03 Mar 08 UTC
heh and its you two who are the whackjobs. though pandora, got to say, probably more you. lasceaux comparable to the sistene chapel? maybe in the sense that both are on earth :p
Equinox (154 D)
03 Mar 08 UTC
Wow so many Anarchists/Libertarians here. I'm one too. I'm surprised there are not more liberals in here...
sean (3490 D(B))
03 Mar 08 UTC
im surprised there aren't more Ra Ra Ra long live the american Empire, power = right, little boy dreams of ruling the universe right wing nut jobs.
seems us loonie left types are in the majority!
Pandora (100 D)
03 Mar 08 UTC
I'm a whack job? why is that? I dont know why we have to bring name calling in this, I havnt attacked anyones views directly, just defended mine
Zarathustra (3672 D)
03 Mar 08 UTC
if pandora is right on anything, (s)he is right about ad hominem arguments. Attacking a person's character shows no flaws in the argument. If one is to refute something, they must refute the argument.
flashman (2274 D(G))
03 Mar 08 UTC
Yes, name-calling is a bit lame, but let us be strictly fair here:

pandora is guilty of a variant on the an ad hominem/man of straw argument as well: s-he attributed a set of beliefs to Theophilus and then told him why he was wrong to believe them...

In defence, he merely claimed, as a point of information, that he had not stated his support for such beliefs in the first place.

Nice thread all round - it has kept above the gutter-level and that is quite something given the theme and the anonymity of the internet. I do not think I have ever seen a beliefs/politics thread this long that has not descended into direct and escalating abuse...

Am I tempting fate?

fwancophile (164 D)
03 Mar 08 UTC
well i am not saying my argument is my name calling. it is merely my glib evaluation of pretty squirrelly views. i am not really attacking or disputing your views so much as dismissing them :P
happyklim (154 D)
03 Mar 08 UTC
Well, me...I think I'd like Nazism if I were Hitler...
Thucydides (864 D(B))
04 Mar 08 UTC
Well, all you libertarian's can just go die in Pandora's big "genocide" because I'm a statist and think we'd be better off with all of you removed from the picture.

I exaggerate of course. I just hope one day we statists will be in the majority, but rather than by a "mass die-off" like some have suggested, a, pardon the use of this term dubbed so despicable, 'civilized' rhetorical exchange, during the course of which everyone will be converted to the cause of bigger government.

.... riiiight. In my dreams lol.
Locke (1846 D)
04 Mar 08 UTC
Its slightly worrying me how many anarchists and leftists there are as well, although maybe wanting anarchy is something to do with the characteristics of diplomacy players?

I think all these genetically modified societies are to extreme for me, i honestly can't see what is wrong with the societies we enjoy today. Marriage really isn't such a bad thing and i don't think its particularly oppressive or whatever the arguement is! Conservatism at least doesn't expose me to all these worrying and frankly bizzare theories about social manipulation and anti-corporationism. Big business is a very good thing for the economy and the free market principle means that we never really get exploited because there is always so much competition, having mega-corporations to tax probably pays for a reasonable chunk of our services.

I'll just throw an interesting theory into the ring for people. I think we all accept that society so far has been very patriarchal, however this is set to change as women take on the high powered roles and men are found less and less in positions of power. Do we think that this switch to feminine leadership will be a good one?
Personally i'm inclined to say yes it will, i think a more compassionate and empathetic leadership will benefit most of our societies. However perhaps Hitler was right when he said women were to emotional for power?
Thucydides (864 D(B))
04 Mar 08 UTC
Whoever gets elected should rule, with no hampers on their power. Man or woman, young or old, white or black, and yes, even liberal or conservative.

The thing that tires me out endlessly is criticism of government. InTERMINABLE criticism, mostly baseless, always dredged up by someone no matter the issue. I am so sick of this meaningless babble. Sure, oppose the government if your life of livelihood is endangered, but if you can tell they've got the nation's best interest at heart and their actions aren't TOO seriously wrong, then support them in public and disagree in private. Frankly I think its an embarassment to the rest of the world when they read something attacking our own governmental officials over nothing. From what I'm saying you might construe I mean only the current government. Quite the contrary, I don't care WHO is in office, it is the citizenry's duty to support the government, right or wrong, unless the situation is so grave it requires a coup d'etat. Sure, vote your mind, but if you lose the election be quiet and go with the will of the people, rather than complaining. This is mostly directed at news media, both left- and right-wing. New York Times: pipe down. Rush Limbaugh: shut up. etc. etc. It's time for the people to criticize the press and not the other way around.

Sorry don't know where that tangent came from but...
Pandora (100 D)
04 Mar 08 UTC
Gender has nothing to do with politics. I'm a girl and I dont give a shit what out leaders are. it's an imagined difference, like being black or white. yes there are small differences, but no substantial ones, though this is very arguable, and I dont want to get into it. btu please, enjoy this paper I wrote.


I. Prologue
Having been chosen--whether as devil's advocate or sacrificial lamb, I am not sure--to lead off this discussion on the question, "Was Civilization a Mistake?", I would like to offer some preliminary thoughts.
From the viewpoint of any non-civilized person, this consideration would appear to be steeped in irony. Here we are, after all, some of the most civilized people on the planet, discussing in the most civilized way imaginable whether civilization itself might be an error. Most of our fellow civilians would likely find our discussion, in addition to being ironic, also disturbing and pointless: after all, what person who has grown up with cars, electricity, and television would relish the idea of living without a house, and of surviving only on wild foods?
Nevertheless, despite the possibility that at least some of our remarks may be ironic, disturbing, and pointless, here we are. Why? I can only speak for myself. In my own intellectual development I have found that a critique of civilization is virtually inescapable for two reasons.
The first has to do with certain deeply disturbing trends in the modern world. We are, it seems, killing the planet. Revisionist "wise use" advocates tell us there is nothing to worry about; dangers to the environment, they say, have been wildly exaggerated. To me this is the most blatant form of wishful thinking. By most estimates, the oceans are dying, the human population is expanding far beyond the long-term carrying capacity of the land, the ozone layer is disappearing, and the global climate is showing worrisome signs of instability. Unless drastic steps are taken, in fifty years the vast majority of the world's population will likely be existing in conditions such that the lifestyle of virtually any undisturbed primitive tribe would be paradise by comparison.
Now, it can be argued that civilization per se is not at fault, that the problems we face have to do with unique economic and historical circumstances. But we should at least consider the possibility that our modern industrial system represents the flowering of tendencies that go back quite far. This, at any rate, is the implication of recent assessments of the ecological ruin left in the wake of the Roman, Mesopotamian, Chinese, and other prior civilizations. Are we perhaps repeating their errors on a gargantuan scale?
If my first reason for criticizing civilization has to do with its effects on the environment, the second has to do with its impact on human beings. As civilized people, we are also domesticated. We are to primitive peoples as cows and sheep are to bears and eagles. On the rental property where I live in California my landlord keeps two white domesticated ducks. These ducks have been bred to have wings so small as to prevent them from flying. This is a convenience for their keepers, but compared to wild ducks these are pitiful creatures.
Many primal peoples tend to view us as pitiful creatures, too--though powerful and dangerous because of our technology and sheer numbers. They regard civilization as a sort of social disease. We civilized people appear to act as though we were addicted to a powerful drug--a drug that comes in the forms of money, factory-made goods, oil, and electricity. We are helpless without this drug, so we have come to see any threat to its supply as a threat to our very existence. Therefore we are easily manipulated--by desire (for more) or fear (that what we have will be taken away)--and powerful commercial and political interests have learned to orchestrate our desires and fears in order to achieve their own purposes of profit and control. If told that the production of our drug involves slavery, stealing, and murder, or the ecological equivalents, we try to ignore the news so as not to have to face an intolerable double bind.
Since our present civilization is patently ecologically unsustainable in its present form, it follows that our descendants will be living very differently in a few decades, whether their new way of life arises by conscious choice or by default. If humankind is to choose its path deliberately, I believe that our deliberations should include a critique of civilization itself, such as we are undertaking here. The question implicit in such a critique is, What have we done poorly or thoughtlessly in the past that we can do better now? It is in this constructive spirit that I offer the comments that follow.
II. Civilization and Primitivism
What Is Primitivism?

The image of a lost Golden Age of freedom and innocence is at the heart of all the world's religions, is one of the most powerful themes in the history of human thought, and is the earliest and most characteristic expression of primitivism--the perennial belief in the necessity of a return to origins.
As a philosophical idea, primitivism has had as its proponents Lao Tze, Rousseau, and Thoreau, as well as most of the pre-Socratics, the medieval Jewish and Christian theologians, and 19th- and 20th-century anarchist social theorists, all of whom argued (on different bases and in different ways) the superiority of a simple life close to nature. More recently, many anthropologists have expressed admiration for the spiritual and material advantages of the ways of life of the world's most "primitive" societies--the surviving gathering-and-hunting peoples who now make up less than one hundredth of one percent of the world's population.
Meanwhile, as civilization approaches a crisis precipitated by overpopulation and the destruction of the ecological integrity of the planet, primitivism has enjoyed a popular resurgence, by way of increasing interest in shamanism, tribal customs, herbalism, radical environmentalism, and natural foods. There is a widespread (though by no means universally shared) sentiment that civilization has gone too far in its domination of nature, and that in order to survive--or, at least, to live with satisfaction--we must regain some of the spontaneity and naturalness of our early ancestors.
What Is Civilization?

There are many possible definitions of the word civilization. Its derivation--from civis, "town" or "city"--suggests that a minimum definition would be, "urban culture." Civilization also seems to imply writing, division of labor, agriculture, organized warfare, growth of population, and social stratification.
Yet the latest evidence calls into question the idea that these traits always go together. For example, Elizabeth Stone and Paul Zimansky's assessment of power relations in the Mesopotamian city of Maskan-shapir (published in the April 1995 Scientific American) suggests that urban culture need not imply class divisions. Their findings seem to show that civilization in its earliest phase was free of these. Still, for the most part the history of civilization in the Near East, the Far East, and Central America, is also the history of kingship, slavery, conquest, agriculture, overpopulation, and environmental ruin. And these traits continue in civilization's most recent phases--the industrial state and the global market--though now the state itself takes the place of the king, and slavery becomes wage labor and de facto colonialism administered through multinational corporations. Meanwhile, the mechanization of production (which began with agriculture) is overtaking nearly every avenue of human creativity, population is skyrocketing, and organized warfare is resulting in unprecedented levels of bloodshed.
Perhaps, if some of these undesirable traits were absent from the very first cities, I should focus my critique on "Empire Culture" instead of the broader target of "civilization." However, given how little we still know about the earliest urban centers of the Neolithic era, it is difficult as yet to draw a clear distinction between the two terms.
III. Primitivism Versus Civilization
Wild Self/Domesticated Self

People are shaped from birth by their cultural surroundings and by their interactions with the people closest to them. Civilization manipulates these primary relationships in such a way as to domesticate the infant--that is, so as to accustom it to life in a social structure one step removed from nature. The actual process of domestication is describable as follows, using terms borrowed from the object-relations school of psychology.
The infant lives entirely in the present moment in a state of pure trust and guilelessness, deeply bonded with her mother. But as she grows, she discovers that her mother is a separate entity with her own priorities and limits. The infant's experience of relationship changes from one of spontaneous trust to one that is suffused with need and longing. This creates a gap between Self and Other in the consciousness of the child, who tries to fill this deepening rift with transitional objects--initially, perhaps a teddy bear; later, addictions and beliefs that serve to fill the psychic gap and thus provide a sense of security. It is the powerful human need for transitional objects that drives individuals in their search for property and power, and that generates bureaucracies and technologies as people pool their efforts.
This process does not occur in the same way in the case of primitive childbearing, where the infant is treated with indulgence, is in constant physical contact with a caregiver throughout infancy, and later undergoes rites of passage. In primal cultures the need for transitional objects appears to be minimized. Anthropological and psychological research converge to suggest that many of civilized people's emotional ills come from our culture's abandonment of natural childrearing methods and initiatory rites and its systematic substitution of alienating pedagogical practices from crib through university.
Health: Natural or Artificial?

In terms of health and quality of life, civilization has been a mitigated disaster. S. Boyd Eaton, M.D., et al., argued in The Paleolithic Prescription (1988) that pre agricultural peoples enjoyed a generally healthy way of life, and that cancer, heart disease, strokes, diabetes, emphysema, hypertension, and cirrhosis--which together lead to 75 percent of all mortality in industrialized nations--are caused by our civilized lifestyles. In terms of diet and exercise, preagricultural lifestyles showed a clear superiority to those of agricultural and civilized peoples.
Much-vaunted increases in longevity in civilized populations have resulted not so much from wonder drugs, as merely from better sanitation--a corrective for conditions created by the overcrowding of cities; and from reductions in infant mortality. It is true that many lives have been spared by modern antibiotics. Yet antibiotics also appear responsible for the evolution of resistant strains of microbes, which health officials now fear could produce unprecedented epidemics in the next century.
The ancient practice of herbalism, evidence of which dates back at least 60,000 years, is practiced in instinctive fashion by all higher animals. Herbal knowledge formed the basis of modern medicine and remains in many ways superior to it. In countless instances, modern synthetic drugs have replaced herbs not because they are more effective or safer, but because they are more profitable to manufacture.
Other forms of "natural" healing--massage, the "placebo effect," the use of meditation and visualization--are also being shown effective. Medical doctors Bernie Siegel and Deepak Chopra are critical of mechanized medicine and say that the future of the healing professions lies in the direction of attitudinal and natural therapies.
Spirituality: Raw or Cooked?

Spirituality means different things to different people--humility before a higher power or powers; compassion for the suffering of others; obedience to a lineage or tradition; a felt connection with the Earth or with Nature; evolution toward "higher" states of consciousness; or the mystical experience of oneness with all life or with God. With regard to each of these fundamental ways of defining or experiencing the sacred, spontaneous spirituality seems to become regimented, dogmatized, even militarized, with the growth of civilization. While some of the founders of world religions were intuitive primitivists (Jesus, Lao Tze, the Buddha), their followers have often fostered the growth of dominance hierarchies.
The picture is not always simple, though. The thoroughly civilized Roman Catholic Church produced two of the West's great primitivists--St. Francis and St. Clair; while the neo-shamanic, vegetarian, and herbalist movements of early 20th century Germany attracted arch-authoritarians Heinrich Himmler and Adolph Hitler. Of course, Nazism's militarism and rigid dominator organization were completely alien to primitive life, while St. Francis's and St. Clair's voluntary poverty and treatment of animals as sacred were reminiscent of the lifestyle and worldview of most gathering-and-hunting peoples. If Nazism was atavistic, it was only highly selectively so.
A consideration of these historical ironies is useful in helping us isolate the essentials of true primitivist spirituality--which include spontaneity, mutual aid, encouragement of natural diversity, love of nature, and compassion for others. As spiritual teachers have always insisted, it is the spirit (or state of consciousness) that is important, not the form (names, ideologies, and techniques). While from the standpoint of Teilhard de Chardin's idea of spiritual evolutionism, primitivist spirituality may initially appear anti-evolutionary or regressive, the essentials we have cited are timeless and trans-evolutionary--they are available at all stages, at all times, for all people. It is when we cease to see civilization in terms of theories of cultural evolution and see it merely as one of several possible forms of social organization that we begin to understand why religion can be liberating, enlightening, and empowering when it holds consistently to primitivist ideals; or deadening and oppressive when it is co-opted to serve the interests of power.
Economics: Free or Unaffordable?

At its base, economics is about how people relate with the land and with one another in the process of fulfilling their material wants and needs. In the most primitive societies, these relations are direct and straightforward. Land, shelter, and food are free. Everything is shared, there are no rich people or poor people, and happiness has little to do with accumulating material possessions. The primitive lives in relative abundance (all needs and wants are easily met) and has plenty of leisure time.
Civilization, in contrast, straddles two economic pillars--technological innovation and the marketplace. "Technology" here includes everything from the plow to the nuclear reactor--all are means to more efficiently extract energy and resources from nature. But efficiency implies the reification of time, and so civilization always brings with it a preoccupation with past and future; eventually the present moment nearly vanishes from view. The elevation of efficiency over other human values is epitomized in the factory--the automated workplace--in which the worker becomes merely an appendage of the machine, a slave to clocks and wages.
The market is civilization's means of equating dissimilar things through a medium of exchange. As we grow accustomed to valuing everything according to money, we tend to lose a sense of the uniqueness of things. What, after all, is an animal worth, or a mountain, or a redwood tree, or an hour of human life? The market gives us a numerical answer based on scarcity and demand. To the degree that we believe that such values have meaning, we live in a world that is desacralized and desensitized, without heart or spirit.
We can get some idea of ways out of our ecologically ruinous, humanly deadening economic cage by examining not only primitive lifestyles, but the proposals of economist E. F. Schumacher, the experiences of people in utopian communities in which technology and money are marginalized, and the lives of individuals who have adopted an attitude of voluntary simplicity.
Government: Bottom Up or Top Down?

In the most primitive human societies there are no leaders, bosses, politics, laws, crime, or taxes. There is often little division of labor between women and men, and where such division exists both gender's contributions are often valued more or less equally. Probably as a result, many foraging peoples are relatively peaceful (anthropologist Richard Lee found that "the !Kung [Bushmen of southern Africa] hate fighting, and think anybody who fought would be stupid").
With agriculture usually come division of labor, increased sexual inequality, and the beginnings of social hierarchy. Priests, kings, and organized, impersonal warfare all seem to come together in one package. Eventually, laws and borders define the creation of the fully fledged state. The state as a focus of coercion and violence has reached its culmination in the 19th and 20th centuries in colonialism, fascism, and Stalinism. Even the democratic industrial state functions essentially as an instrument of multinational corporate-style colonial oppression and domestic enslavement, its citizens merely being given the choice between selected professional bureaucrats representing political parties with slightly varying agendas for the advancement of corporate power.
Beginning with William Godwin in the early 19th century, anarchist social philosophers have offered a critical counterpoint to the increasingly radical statism of most of the world's civilized political leaders. The core idea of anarchism is that human beings are fundamentally sociable; left to themselves, they tend to cooperate to their mutual benefit. There will always be exceptions, but these are best dealt with informally and on an individual basis. Many anarchists cite the Athenian polis, the "sections" in Paris during the French Revolution, the New England town meetings of the 18th century, the popular assemblies in Barcelona in the late 1930s, and the Paris general strike of 1968 as positive examples of anarchy in action. They point to the possibility of a kind of social ecology, in which diversity and spontaneity are permitted to flourish unhindered both in human affairs and in Nature.
While critics continue to describe anarchism as a practical failure, organizational and systems theorists Tom Peters and Peter Senge are advocating the transformation of hierarchical, bureaucratized organizations into more decentralized, autonomous, spontaneous ones. This transformation is presently underway in--of all places--the very multinational corporations that form the backbone of industrial civilization.
Civilization and Nature

Civilized people are accustomed to an anthropocentric view of the world. Our interest in the environment is utilitarian: it is of value because it is of use (or potential use) to human beings--if only as a place for camping and recreation.
Primitive peoples, in contrast, tended to see nature as intrinsically meaningful. In many cultures prohibitions surrounded the overhunting of animals or the felling of trees. The aboriginal peoples of Australia believed that their primary purpose in the cosmic scheme of things was to take care of the land, which meant performing ceremonies for the periodic renewal of plant and animal species, and of the landscape itself.
The difference in effects between the anthropocentric and ecocentric worldviews is incalculable. At present, we human beings--while considering ourselves the most intelligent species on the planet--are engaged in the most unintelligent enterprise imaginable: the destruction of our own natural life-support system. We need here only mention matters such as the standard treatment of factory-farmed domesticated food animals, the destruction of soils, the pollution of air and water, and the extinctions of wild species, as these horrors are well documented. It seems unlikely that these could ever have arisen but for an entrenched and ever-deepening trend of thinking that separates humanity from its natural context and denies inherent worth to non-human nature.
The origin and growth of this tendency to treat nature as an object separate from ourselves can be traced to the Neolithic revolution, and through the various stages of civilization's intensification and growth. One can also trace the countercurrent to this tendency from the primitivism of the early Taoists to that of today's deep ecologists, ecofeminists, and bioregionalists.
How We Compensate for Our Loss of Nature

How do we make up for the loss of our primitive way of life? Psychotherapy, exercise and diet programs, the vacation and entertainment industries, and social welfare programs are necessitated by civilized, industrial lifestyles. The cumulative cost of these compensatory efforts is vast; yet in many respects they are only palliative.
The medical community now tells us that our modern diet of low-fiber, high-fat processed foods is disastrous to our health. But what exactly is the cost--in terms of hospital stays, surgeries, premature deaths, etc.? A rough but conservative estimate runs into the tens of billions of dollars per year in North America alone.
At the forefront of the "wellness" movement are advocates of natural foods, exercise programs (including hiking and backpacking), herbalism, and other therapies that aim specifically to bring overcivilized individuals back in touch with the innate source of health within their own stressed and repressed bodies.
Current approaches in psychology aim to retrieve lost portions of the primitive psyche via "inner child" work, through which adults compensate for alienated childhoods; or men's and women's vision quests, through which civilized people seek to access the "wild man" or "wild woman" within.
All of these physically, psychologically, and even spiritually-oriented efforts are helpful antidotes for the distress of civilization. One must wonder, however, whether it wouldn't be better simply to stop creating the problems that these programs and therapies are intended to correct.
IV. Questions and Objections
Isn't civilization simply the inevitable expression of the evolutionary urge as it is translated through human society? Isn't primitivism therefore regressive?
We are accustomed to thinking of the history of Western civilization as an inevitable evolutionary progression. But this implies that all the world's peoples who didn't spontaneously develop civilizations of their own were less highly evolved than ourselves, or simply "backward." Not all anthropologists who have spent time with such peoples think this way. Indeed, according to the cultural materialist school of thought, articulated primarily by Marvin Harris, social change in the direction of technological innovation and social stratification is fueled not so much by some innate evolutionary urge as by crises brought on by overpopulation and resource exhaustion.
Wasn't primitive life terrible? Would we really want to go back to hunting and gathering, living without modern comforts and conveniences?
Putting an urban person in the wilderness without comforts and conveniences would be as cruel as abandoning a domesticated pet by the roadside. Even if the animal survived, it would be miserable. And we would probably be miserable too, if the accouterments of civilization were abruptly withdrawn from us. Yet the wild cousins of our hypothetical companion animal--whether a parrot, a canine, or a feline--live quite happily away from houses and packaged pet food and resist our efforts to capture and domesticate them, just as primitive peoples live quite happily without civilization and often resist its imposition. Clearly, animals (including people) can adapt either to wild or domesticated ways of life over the course of several generations, while adult individuals tend to be much less adaptable. In the view of many of its proponents, primitivism implies a direction of social change over time, as opposed to an instantaneous, all-or-nothing choice. We in the industrial world have gradually accustomed ourselves to a way of life that appears to be leading toward a universal biological holocaust. The question is, shall we choose to gradually accustom ourselves to another way of life--one that more successfully integrates human purposes with ecological imperatives--or shall we cling to our present choices to the bitter end?
Obviously, we cannot turn back the clock. But we are at a point in history where we not only can, but must pick and choose among all the present and past elements of human culture to find those that are most humane and sustainable. While the new culture we will create by doing so will not likely represent simply an immediate return to wild food gathering, it could restore much of the freedom, naturalness, and spontaneity that we have traded for civilization's artifices, and it could include new versions of cultural forms with roots in humanity's remotest past. We need not slavishly imitate the past; we might, rather, be inspired by the best examples of human adaptation, past and present. Instead of "going back," we should think of this process as "getting back on track."
Haven't we gained important knowledge and abilities through civilization? Wouldn't renouncing these advances be stupid and short-sighted?
If human beings are inherently mostly good, sociable, and creative, it is inevitable that much of what we have done in the course of the development of civilization should be worth keeping, even if the enterprise as a whole was skewed. But how do we decide what to keep? Obviously, we must agree upon criteria. I would suggest that our first criterion must be ecological sustainability. What activities can be pursued across many generations with minimal environmental damage? A second criterion might be, What sorts of activities promote--rather than degrade--human dignity and freedom?
If human beings are inherently good, then why did we make the "mistake" of creating civilization? Aren't the two propositions (human beings are good, civilization is bad) contradictory?
Only if taken as absolutes. Human nature is malleable, its qualities changing somewhat according to the natural and social environment. Moreover, humankind is not a closed system. We exist within a natural world that is, on the whole, "good," but that is subject to rare catastrophes. Perhaps the initial phases of civilization were humanity's traumatized response to overwhelming global cataclysms accompanying and following the end of the Pleistocene. Kingship and warfare may have originated as survival strategies. Then, perhaps civilization itself became a mechanism for re-traumatizing each new generation, thus preserving and regenerating its own psycho-social basis.
What practical suggestions for the future stem from primitivism? We cannot all revert to gathering and hunting today because there are just too many of us. Can primitivism offer a practical design for living?
No philosophy or "-ism" is a magical formula for the solution of all human problems. Primitivism doesn't offer easy answers, but it does suggest an alternative direction or set of values. For many centuries, civilization has been traveling in the direction of artificiality, control, and domination. Primitivism tells us that there is an inherent limit to our continued movement in that direction, and that at some point we must begin to choose to readapt ourselves to nature. The point of a primitivist critique of civilization is not necessarily to insist on an absolute rejection of every aspect of modern life, but to assist in clarifying issues so that we can better understand the tradeoffs we are making now, deepen the process of renegotiating our personal bargains with nature, and thereby contribute to the reframing of our society's collective covenants.
V. Some Concluding Thoughts
In any discussion of primitivism we must keep in mind civilization's "good" face--the one characterized (in Lewis Mumford's words) by
the invention and keeping of the written record, the growth of visual and musical arts, the effort to widen the circle of communication and economic intercourse far beyond the range of any local community: ultimately the purpose to make available to all [people] the discoveries and inventions and creations, the works of art and thought, the values and purposes that any single group has discovered.
Civilization brings not only comforts, but also the opportunity to think the thoughts of Plato or Thoreau, to travel to distant places, and to live under the protection of a legal system that guarantees certain rights. How could we deny the worth of these things?
Naturally, we would like to have it all; we would like to preserve civilization's perceived benefits while restraining its destructiveness. But we haven't found a way to do that yet. And it is unlikely that we will while we are in denial about what we have left behind, and about the likely consequences of what we are doing now.
While I advocate taking a critical look at civilization, I am not suggesting that we are now in position to render a final judgment on it. It is entirely possible that we are standing on the threshold of a cultural transformation toward a way of life characterized by relatively higher degrees of contentment, creativity, justice, and sustainability than have been known in any human society heretofore. If we are able to follow this transformation through, and if we call the result "civilization," then we will surely be entitled to declare civilization a resounding success.

fwancophile (164 D)
04 Mar 08 UTC
count me in the "pro" civilization camp :P
Locke (1846 D)
04 Mar 08 UTC
I disagree with the points Thucydides made.

It is the duty of citizens to constantly be assesing the worth of their government, if nobody watches what the government is doing and disagrees with them then at best you are left with an imcompetent government and at worst there is a slow slide into dictatorship.

Also, it is important when elections come round to have a public that is informed both about the sucesses and shortcomings of their government in order to make an informed decision about who to vote into power.

To say that everyone should support the government is a nonsense anyway because, as this thread has demonstrated, there are so many competing ideologies that there would never be a government free from critisism from at least one party.

And i'm not sure if you realise it, but a coup d'etat is a military action against the government that results in martial law and normally dictatorship. If what you are saying is that if a government gets so bad there has to be a popular revolution in order to remove it then i could see the sense of that point.

I think whoever is elected should always have a balance on their power and to concentrate power into one person or one party is incredibly dangerous....especially if they are above critsism.
Theophilus (100 D)
04 Mar 08 UTC
In the ideal world, we, the common people, would be unable to think. We would simply do what we were told to do by the god-man: the one person who could think.
sean (3490 D(B))
04 Mar 08 UTC
quite frankly i find the Theo's ideals scary, fascist, power worshiping, elitist, inhumane and intolerant.
im guessing that these views could only ever come from somebody living in a comfortable existence in a wealthy democracy. Those that actually grow up under the iron heel of a dictatorship are never so in awe of its supposed righteousness and can see it's brutatlity, inhumanity and flaws.
Theophilus (100 D)
04 Mar 08 UTC
they can only see its "brutality, inhumanity and flaws" because they can THINK. If we could not think for ourselves, we would be quite unable to see anything wrong with it.
I reject ideologies, screw the chains! I believe in situations and putting the wellbeing of people first. As for diplomacy, well I'm studying European history from 1770-1918, so its inspiring for this game. ^^ Just learnt about Bismark.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
04 Mar 08 UTC
But, Locke, in the current system, the public is barely informed of the government's successes whereas the shortcomings of the goverment are hammered into our brains. Of course you can watch the goverment and disagree with them. That is fundamental. What irks me is presenting a lopsided view of the issue to the public who then makes "informed" decisions based on this "information."

Of course there will always be a large camp that disagrees with the goverment in power, but I would implore these people to disagree in the correct way, namely, debate inside the legislature, not misrepresentative media and protest marches. Though they get points across, the points are often wrong. I guess what I'm saying is it would be better if there was a way to have a totally impartial press, but this is impossible. As such, the only solution I can think of is to quiet the press down, that is, minimize their influence. Let the public watch the goverment with their own eyes and make decisions based on that. The media's role should be to warn the people of impending natural disasters and to transcribe speeches and debates made by government officials, not to insert their own commentary, implicit or otherwise.

And yes, by coup d'etat I meant popular revolution. Hopefully it would rarely come to this, but it would provide a safeguard against the dictatorship into which you say the nation would slowly slide.
Theophilus (100 D)
04 Mar 08 UTC
And just what's wrong with intolerance anyway...?

fwancophile (164 D)
04 Mar 08 UTC
don't worry everyone, america will always be around to thwart folks like theo :P and whoever mentioned supporting american imperia...er, globalization, yes, i am a strong advocate. american lead globalization is the actualization of the enlightenment value of universal cosmopolitanism. which, despite the protestations of pandora & theo, is really the only ethically justifiable politics today.
sean (3490 D(B))
04 Mar 08 UTC
theo, thucy what is ideal about a world were people cannot think? we wouldn't be able to play diplomacy thats for sure.
as for governments, they spend millions a year promoting themselves, spinning themselves to the people , im not shedding too many tears over the poor misunderstood underpaid and under appreciated pollies. (excuse me while i barf)
you say that you agree that one can watch the government and disagree with them but one isnt allowed to talk about your disagreement outside a ballot box? two people talking about how they disagree with the government is fine?...but if one is holding a poster expressing that view...its wrong? this website is "media" am i breaking your law by discussing the government on it?

theo about the thinking point you made above. if we couldnt feel pain then torture would be ok , yeah ok...but we can THINK. and i cant see anyone but maybe you (but i guess you'd like to be big brother in your fantasy not a small cog in the machine) lining up to have their brains lobotomized to create the ideal society of non complaining non critical thinking robots dedicated to the races advancement.
im guessing you probably came away with a different (and novel i give you that) perspective after reading 1984 than most of us.

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