I go to my best friends house for Christmas, he goes to my Seder, I don't see why an atheist and a Christian can't similarly get along

your friend was an ass hole

Is a friend someone who you visit on rare occasions like holidays? Yeah fine have a dinner with somebody but I'm talking about speaking regularly with them.

Some of my very best friends have very different religious beliefs. The people I spend the most time with. And there is no angst.

if we lived close we definitely would see each other a lot. This isn't a weird thing, in fact I think it's kind of common in a multicultural society.

I'm sure it's common. I wonder how authentic it is.

"How is the demographics of your collection of friends off topic? You brought it up. Are you saying you're not staying on topic?"

I was on topic, saying that religious affiliation shouldn't matter in friends, and gave examples.

YOU...haven't argued for or against that point, but simply pulled off the WebDip equivalent of blowing spitballs my way.

You're welcome to blow away, of course--all that hot air has to go somewhere--but as MY comments were on the topic, and your comments have only been personal and directed at me in a derogatory manner, I'd suggest that you get back on topic and say whether you agree with me or not.

And if you have a personal problem with me, you can PM me, you know, like and adult.

But aha, we have a response...

"I see nothing virtuous about being friends with people with strong religious beliefs. Acquaintances whom I'm on pleasant terms with fine. Colleagues fine. But people with whom I want to spend time on a regular basis? No."

So you like your friends to be carbon copies of yourself, agree in everything, and if they dare hold opinions other than your own on that matter, you'd rather cut them out and subsist in an echo chamber of like-minded drones.

...Sounds about right. Enjoy yourself in there.

Why do you hate people who disagree with you so much, Putin? Are the only people you're capable of or choose to be friend with really a bunch of Yes-Men and Yes-Women, all conforming to your own beliefs? I just really don't get your vendetta against diversity...that doesn't come across as big-headed or bigoted in its own right?

Of course not. Because you're in Putin Land, where Putin is always right, and always confirmed to be right by a legion of Putin Minions who would of course NEVER disagree with you...because, you know, conformity.

Good to know you're apparently intolerant of not just Muslims but ALL peoples who disagree with you, though. Thanks for that.

"I say this as someone whose closest friend freshman year was a devout Christian, who tried to convert me on a near weekly basis with sermons about this or that."

So because one Christian was like that, you'll lambast ALL peoples of religious faith, and never have friends who are religious ever again.

Way to generalize!

Yeesh, even ardent atheists Mark Twain and Christopher Hitchens had religious friends...having the crazy idea that who someone was and good times shared with such people could supersede disagreements on such matters.

Well, I assure you that my friendships are for the most part authentic.

"So you like your friends to be carbon copies of yourself, agree in everything, and if they dare hold opinions other than your own on that matter, you'd rather cut them out and subsist in an echo chamber of like-minded drones."

No, not at all. But I like my friends to at least have the same basic framework of ontology & epistemology, where I can speak freely without fear of 'causing offense' and where I can at least grasp what they are saying. Otherwise, as we know very well from webdiplomacy, people just talk past each other, and nothing is really learned, and the experience (in order to be pleasant) is usually phony and forced.

"I go to my best friends house for Christmas, he goes to my Seder, I don't see why an atheist and a Christian can't similarly get along"

Because that would involve admitting to diversity of opinion, SantaClausowitz...

And of course we all know that's a bad, bad, bad thing.

Much better to stick to your own kind with a group of yes-men who agree with you wholeheartedly, so you never have to question yourself or if your own assumptions about people and ideas is correct, all the while making generalizations about others who disagree, because they all must be wrong and not worth being friends with, because they DARE disagree with you over one thing.

You can't disagree with Putin, Santa. You know that.

Because Putin is always RIGHT! (That's why Crimea's still part of Ukraine!)

"No, not at all. But I like my friends to at least have the same basic framework of ontology & epistemology"

So no, you don't want carbon copies...you just want them to have a rough carbon copy of your basic ideas and beliefs! THAT'S all! I see.

"Otherwise, as we know very well from webdiplomacy, people just talk past each other, and nothing is really learned, and the experience (in order to be pleasant) is usually phony and forced."

Because, of course, real life is exactly like Internet life...

Really? Your defense for your hatred of diversity and refusal to be friends with someone just because they disagree with you on something is "Well, things get nasty on WebDip?"

Slacking, Putin.

"So because one Christian was like that, you'll lambast ALL peoples of religious faith, and never have friends who are religious ever again."

I'm not 'lambasting all people of religious faith', I'm saying that *sincere* friendships between people of opposite worldviews (whatever those might be) because they involve either 1) avoiding topics you find important to you for fear of disagreement, which means you cannot talk freely around your supposed friend, which seems silly not to mention irritating; 2) you talk freely about these topics but your interactions frequently involve heated debates, which are stressful and may potentially cause hurt feelings even if most of the time they do not.

Furthermore there are a lot of other things you have to put up with that you might find silly like religious sayings, or prayers before meals, or whatever else and you have to put on the fake smile and not comment about it because you don't want to be rude. It just seems like the whole thing, if it works, must be phony.

*sincere friendships between people of opposite worldviews are difficult*.

Weird how you when on a whine about being too personal and having a vendetta, and straying from the topic yet every response to my substantive posts is thoroughly abusive.

Glad to know your earlier claims to want substantive topic related posts were phony, just like your concept of friendship.

^^^ I can agree with that, but they are not impossible. And if your worldview is completely made up of religion, I think people are sadly lacking.

That was at "*sincere friendships between people of opposite worldviews are difficult*."

"Really? Your defense for your hatred of diversity and refusal to be friends with someone just because they disagree with you on something is "Well, things get nasty on WebDip?"

Slacking, Putin."

No, you want substantive interaction but you refuse to engage in any real way. You just concoct strawmen and ignore what I'm saying. And yet here you are, arguing for tolerance of other viewpoints.

Hilarious.

"I'm not 'lambasting all people of religious faith', I'm saying that *sincere* friendships between people of opposite worldviews (whatever those might be) because they involve either 1) avoiding topics you find important to you for fear of disagreement, which means you cannot talk freely around your supposed friend, which seems silly not to mention irritating; 2) you talk freely about these topics but your interactions frequently involve heated debates, which are stressful and may potentially cause hurt feelings even if most of the time they do not."

...Or 3) You discuss the matter, decide that your friendship matters more than a disagreement on whether or not an invisible divine daddy created us all, and you accept the fact that you can be friends despite that disagreement while acknowledging that you profoundly but respectfully disagree with the other person?

There's really ZERO room for that, in your world view?

You can't disagree with a person on such matters AND be a sincere friend?

There ARE worst things than disagreeing, you know, Putin...and you CAN disagree with someone and still have the basis of that friendship be sincere...

But, no, of course not.

(And what kind of friends are YOU talking about that feel the need to constantly talk about religious or atheistic matters, thereby generating discussions leading to disagreement in the first place? I don't know about you, but my friends and I talk about...you know...other friends, TV, art, film, literature, politics, what kind of wines or beers we enjoy...there's a LOT of stuff to talk about without devolving into a holy war every day...you CAN talk freely amongst such people and not spark an incident. You can even freely and openly jab at their religion, and they'll come back with what they see as a jab at atheism, and we'll go get drinks together. That's REALLY impossible for you...?) O.o

"*sincere friendships between people of opposite worldviews are difficult*."

No, they're really, REALLY not...there's a LOT to bond over besides just whether someone's a theist or atheist, or liberal or conservative...

This really isn't hard, Putin, and if you think it is, and think any friendship built on diversity of opinion is phony, doomed to failure, or both, then I sincerely pity you.

"No, you want substantive interaction but you refuse to engage in any real way."

*I* refuse to engage?

*YOU* won't even be someone's friend if they hold an opposite opinion!

How disengaged and closed-minded is that?!

What kind of warped reality do you live in where agreeing with someone on theological or political matters is a per-requisite for friendship?

And what reality is it where you think people can't get into a hard-fought and contested argument over such issues and, at the end of the day, agree to some points, disagree to others, and enjoy a glass of wine together?

Since WHEN do people have to agree on everything in order to be friends?

Obi, you act like religious views are simply one opinion out of many, when they color virtually everything a person believes. It's not a simple matter of disagreeing over whether a creator god exists. If every time you discuss a serious topic that someone takes seriously, you have 'profound disagreement', then that can lead to serious strain on your relationship, even if people enjoy friendly debate and have thick skin. It still can be stressful, unless people don't take their religious views very seriously. But like I said originally, I'm commenting about friendships with religious people, or friendships between religious people of different faiths.

"TV, art, film, literature, politics, what kind of wines or beers we enjoy...there's a LOT of stuff to talk about without devolving into a holy war every day...you CAN talk freely amongst such people and not spark an incident. "

Sure, there are plenty of other topics to talk about. But I'd prefer to spend most of my time with people who I don't have to worry about "red line" topics. That's a preference of mine.

"*I* refuse to engage?

*YOU* won't even be someone's friend if they hold an opposite opinion!

How disengaged and closed-minded is that?!"

You won't even read what I'm saying and yet you claim to be this paragon of open mindedness and tolerance. It's amusing.

Sorry Putin, but I heartily disagree theologically and politically with *many* of my friends. Yes, friends. Good friends. It really doesn't have to be a huge problem.

"Since WHEN do people have to agree on everything in order to be friends?"

They don't. When did I ever say they had to agree on everything? I did not.

Good on you then. I just don't see the point.

"Furthermore there are a lot of other things you have to put up with that you might find silly like religious sayings, or prayers before meals, or whatever else and you have to put on the fake smile and not comment about it because you don't want to be rude. It just seems like the whole thing, if it works, must be phony."

1. I come from one of the most historically-conservative, Bible-banging districts in California...I get to spend most of my day out of that area, thankfully, but I still live there. Suffice it to say that I've had a lot, A LOT of religious friends, deeply religious, "I believe in Creationism" or "I believe Joseph Smith was right" religious.

And never...*never*...NEVER have I seen someone actually pray or say grace before meals outside of the Passover Seder.

But even there, I sit there because, damn it, my grandma's 90 and you love your grandmother despite disagreeing with the religious side of Jewish history, so you sit there and genuinely love your grandmother while doing this for her. It doesn't mean you don't genuinely love her, it means you love her genuinely ENOUGH to where you're willing to go through the motions for her AND she's willing to acknowledge that, yes, I'm going through the motions and don't believe, but she's mature enough to handle that and love me anyway and appreciate the gesture.

Likewise, if I had a friend who actually DID do the whole "saying grace" thing before a meal, and insisted I do it--sure, why not? They know I'm not a believer--it's not as if I'm particularly shy about my being an atheist Jew, right?--so I'm not fooling them, but it's a sign of respect to go along with their tradition.

And it's a sign of their respect that they won't demand that I convert, or call me a heathen or say I'm going to hell just because I don't believe.

THIS. ISN'T. HARD. You're treating what amounts to a Comedy of Errors like...the kind of overly-melodramatic fluff which generally make up a comedy of manners.

2. How is it phony, when the basis of our friendship is something other than those religious tenants?

If I had told a girl I liked I was totally 100% Catholic just to date her and THEN went through the motions, then yeah, that'd be phony, because the basis of our relationship BEGAN with a lie, my saying I was Catholic which (spoiler alert) I'm not.

But my friendship with all those people are based on other common interests, so how is it phony to say "You know that belief you have? I disagree with it" and have them say "OK then" and you both continue on with that friendship built upon a foundation which is not religious, thereby making religious disputes ancillary to the main relationship?

"You won't even read what I'm saying and yet you claim to be this paragon of open mindedness and tolerance. It's amusing."

It takes me a while to respond to what you're saying...

There's a whole process, ending in an Obi Post and beginning with my being astounded yet again at just how closed-minded and dogmatic you can prove to be.

"Obi, you act like religious views are simply one opinion out of many, when they color virtually everything a person believes."

It IS just one opinion out of many--that doesn't mean it's not a prominent or even a primary opinion, but 1. It's not the only opinion, 2. It's not the only one that matters, and 3. It's not as if I can't disagree with that opinion and agree with them on other things *even if* they agree with me *because* of their religious basis.

I've said before I love T.S. Eliot's poetry.
They might love his poetry too...
THEY might like it because he was Anglican, or because he makes a lot of Catholic or Protestant-flavored references...
And *I* might like him for other reasons...none of which are religious

But the end result is both of us liking the same poetry.

Their having a different opinion is NOT an end-stop moment here.