@ Czech: Learn to read. Nigee isn't saying that the firing of rockets from Gaza is USA sponsored. He's saying that the USA "sponsor" ie provide support and legitimacy to, Israel - which is currently carrying out a massacre in Gaza. He is largely correct.

Jamiet I can read fine. I knew what Niggee meant. Since Palestine has never ever been a country and it doesn't have any military bases and since it uses civilian areas to conduct war and since they will never take the land Israel has offered in exchange for peace and since Israel has proven its word vis a vis its treaty with Egypt where they gave the Sinai peninsula back in exchange for peace can you please explain how to solve the crisis when all the Arabs want is Israel dead and nothing less?

<crickets>

Thank you, Czech...I doff my cap to you...or I would if I had one. ;)

13 dead elite Israeli soldiers, killed in an ambush of explosives, and 1 captured.

And what do the Gazans do? Celebrate.

It was sickening when the Israelis celebrated the bombing of Gaza City, and it's sickening now to see Gazans cheer soldiers getting blown up or that soldier getting captured. They've made Israel MAD now...which may have been a mistake--

There are already plenty of Palestinians getting caught in the crossfire--and that was WITH Israel's trying to be at least somewhat restrained, in whatever form that took, even if it wasn't enough...

Imagine being an Israeli soldier, and seeing those people cheer the death and capture of your comrades--you don't think that might make the war nastier and even more deadly for civilians?

I'm honestly torn on if Israel should even accept a ceasefire at this point, were it to come and Hamas somehow wanted one--Hamas would go home and claim victory. It'd claim it outlasted Israel, killed 13 from an elite group, and forced an end to the war...and then we'd see this same fight play out in 2015 or 2016.

I'll say it for the record--even if it costs more lives in the short term, in the now, I think Israel needs to press the attack and either defeat Hamas or else cripple them so badly they won't hear a peep from them for years, and badly enough that Gazans will at least think of electing a new party, that Hamas is in such a tattered state.

Whichever side of this you're on, or even if you're neutral--

They CAN'T keep doing this every two or three years. Neither side can.

It has to end...and when Hamas takes any Israeli death as a victory and a point to rally around while they reload and rebuild for the next war (as by all accounts, Hamas has been better equipped and better trained this time...for all the reports of lopsided fighting with rockets vs. Israeli airstrikes, on the ground, it's guerrilla, street to street warfare there now, it's not like Israel has M-16s and Hamas has paintball guns and doesn't know how to fight in its own booby-trapped backyard) it has to end with Israel making sure Hamas can't start this up again...at least not for a long, long time.

I empathize with the Palestinians, but I HATE Hamas. Unequivocally. HATE

A lot of groups say they want to kill Jews...but Hamas actually DOES it. They just did. And these wars kill hundreds of Gazans each time.

It HAS to end...and it won't as long as Hamas is there. End this, end Hamas, and no half measures...don't let this stay unfinished and have it fought again in two years.

"13 dead elite Israeli soldiers, killed in an ambush of explosives, and 1 captured.

And what do the Gazans do? Celebrate."

You haven't said a word about all the Israelis having barbeques and cheering on the violence, until the Gazans celebrate killing invaders.

Typical.

" for peace can you please explain how to solve the crisis when all the Arabs want is Israel dead and nothing less?"

The Palestine Papers reveal that to be a lie. Abbas bent over backwards and Israel still walked.

Hamas just committed itself to a unity government on US terms, all this time you people have been complaining about disunity among the Palestinians, now you got it. Now you're waging a war against Palestinian civilians because Israel doesn't want to negotiate.

Make up your minds. You have absolutely everything, why are you refusing to negotiate? Just shouting paranoid slogans isn't going to work anymore.

Thanks again Obi. It's sometimes hard to find good debate about this topic and you make some good points but I feel sick to my stomach with others. I'm doing my earnest to make you see another side of this and maybe change your perspective. I was once very adamantly pro-Israeli but got fed up when I realized the stark gravity of the situation here. This most recent flare-up I think is the most egregious on Israel's part as Hamas had been making strides towards real unity and peace up to it and now all that is broken once again.

To get something out of away initially is this idea that Hamas is the "Tea-Party" wing as you say in one post and wants to kill as Israelis no matter what. This I would say is a misguided view that demonizes them unnecessarily which makes conceding or changing your perspective on other, more reasonable points nigh impossible. Understand that Hamas is a democratically elected governing body for a people put under intense pressure, some of whom have been born and grown up in an environment that has only known war and aggression with Israel. Extremist language is going to be natural in this atmosphere. That does not meet it is at all sincere or total in its commitment. If Israel cannot negotiate with Hamas because of extremist language in their charter (which is largely intended to shore up votes at home. Remember, all politics are local), then it would follow that no nation on Earth should be working with Israel because of the Samson Option. You have to identify these as the extremist and widely unrealistic pipe dreams that they are. Hamas will never have the capability to destroy Israel or all Israelis and it's simply not fair to pin this as justification for continued aggression and keeping of the status quo.

As well, Hamas is not responsible for all rocket fire from Gaza nor all criminal elements there. There are a few other militant groups outside their control, like the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, which Hamas has attempted to work against and stop their ability to fire rockets. And Israeli general has come on recording stating as much:

http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/idCATRE5AC3H820091113

Just in January of this year Israel observed efforts by Hamas at curbing rocket fire

http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Report-Hamas-deploys-troops-on-Gaza-Israel-border-to-deter-rocket-fire-338844

To say they SUPPORT the rocket fire in times of ceasefire or calm is patently dishonest and against Israel's own observations.

Now, I'd like to point out a major disparity in your reasoning. I think this can be chalked up to you viewing the two sides as equivalent parties, on equal grounds in terms of their level of aggression and ability to do harm. This is not the case and it is evident in your arguments that you make tact apologies for one side while giving no lenience to the other. Here are your statements:

"-the reason for so many casualties is because Gaza is like trying to fit a 25lb. steak into a 5lb. bag. It's just far, far too dense, and because neither Israel nor Egypt wish to open their borders to Gazans fleeing the fighting (because both Israel and Egypt fear attacks/hate Hamas) there's an incredible, atrocious amount of collateral damage."
"I'm not really sure you could, as packed as Gaza is, wage a war against Hamas WITHOUT having such huge casualties...it's just too densely-packed..."

"I again disagree, and the seeds as to why are planted in your own response--Gaza is so densely populated that I'd argue it's essentially impossible for Israel to simply or exclusively target Hamas specifically and not have collateral damage. There are too many people crammed into that tiny Strip, and with the borders shut on all sides due to the fear of Hamas...well, hitting innocent Gazans is almost inevitable, frankly."

"Whether or not you think that's OK is going to be up to you...but I don't think it's collective punishment so much as unfortunate collateral damage. At this point, I am inclined to agree with that utilitarian point of view--it's going to be a high death toll, but this CANNOT continue. "

vs.

"I again disagree, as this is again a point which I disagreed with previously--shooting rockets at civilians is not only not a civil manner of demonstration, recourse, frustration, or any of those descriptors, it is likewise not, in the era of social media, the "only" recourse."

"The rocketing from Gaza must stop--period. It is unlawful, it is immoral, it is futile as per Game Theory (I will address the points people touched on there in a bit) and furthermore, there ARE other methods..."

"but in terms of "weakening" Israel? I think it's safe to say that after years of Hamas doing this and, indeed, decades of the Palestinians in Gaza at large doing this...

Israel's not weaker. It's a damn strong country. Arguably it's stronger now, because these attacks encouraged the US to help Israel with the Iron Dome, and that's made these rocket attacks all the weaker and, because Israel has faced fewer casualties, it's in fact arguably encouraged them to go all the way this time and launch this ground invasion with the possible end of ousting Hamas entirely, even if it costs hundreds of lives."


So you see, for one side, attacks which are largely symbolic and have a casualty count you number on two hands are completely unacceptable, have in fact made Israel stronger, and there are other forms of more acceptable expressions of rage that can be pursued.

But for the other, attacks against high density targets, where innocent deaths are inevitable, and routinely number in the hundreds, are acceptable because why? Are Gazan lives worth less than Israelis? Should the Gazan people suffer for being caught in the crossfire between Hamas and Israel? Why are these attacks, which are not parity in any way, civil for one side but not the other? What justifies civilian deaths for Israel but not for Hamas? Why is going to social media an option for one but not the other? Israeli gets its cake and can eat it too? Your reasoning here raises many troubling questions, and I think it's more troubling that you view Israel's response as "restrained", believing a total, potentially nuclear engagement or all out massacre would be...more appropriate? justified? It's hard to read but I don't think you're giving equal credence to the death of innocent lives here. Hamas may be stationed in Gaza and may have equipment there, but that does not justify murdering innocents and routinely destroying civilian infrastructure to stop attacks that are already rebuffed by the Iron Dome, which do not disproportionally impact Israelis, and which could be resolved in other ways.

To quote you, the bombing from Israel must stop. It is unlawful. It is immoral and it is futile. As long as there is Israeli aggression and young, hot blooded young men in the Gaza strip, there will be militants and there will be rocket fire. The only way to change this is, as I've stated, for Israel to change its overly aggressive and heavy-handed policies, and work with the Gazan governing body, no matter who it is, to crack down on the criminal elements that do fire rockets in times of ceasefire and calm.

"I'd ask for some kind of statement or other such point as evidence to that statement...I've mentioned and cited Hamas' desire to kill any and all Israelis, and I have backed that point up, so it seems only fair that, if the IDF is going to be accused of not having any qualms killing civilians, that likewise, there should be some kind of evidence or citation to that end."

You've said it yourself. They bomb high density areas where civilian deaths are inevitable, and have no problems doing it. Besides there, there are a number of recent examples we can cite:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/10971306/Israeli-naval-ship-bombs-Palestinian-children-on-Gaza-beach-killing-four.html
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.590861
http://www.jpost.com/Defense/PLO-outraged-as-video-shows-deliberate-execution-of-two-Palestinian-teens-by-IDF-352797
http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Brothers-Keeper/Two-Palestinians-killed-in-overnight-raids-by-IDF-360157

The fact is in the course of searching for the three missing Israeli teenagers, which the Israel government knew from the start were dead (http://www.globalresearch.ca/israel-palestine-netanyahu-government-knew-kidnapped-teens-were-dead-as-it-whipped-up-racist-frenzy/5390628), certainly more than three Palestinians were killed by the IDF, not counting those children murder and mutilated by Israelis in retributive attacks.

"The PR battle matters to Israel because it has an economy and international interests to worry about...what the hell does the international court of opinion matter to Gaza PRACTICALLY when that court of opinion does next to nothing and Gaza itself is ablaze?"

Gaza would have an economy, and the international community would make efforts to help Gaza, if it was not blocked by Israel at every pass. You state later that....

"Ignoring the loaded language there--not counting this war (I think it's fair to say war has a different standard of conduct than peace) I think Israel is extremely strict, but not strict to the point where I'd sue the "under their boot heel" language"

Israel is effectively sieging Gaza and currently has it under occupation. These are indisputable facts. They are control the majority of Gaza's borders, they blockade its ports, decide what materials can go in and out, and if they had your way, they would also decide whether its government was acceptable or not. Israel has Gaza completely under its boot heel, to be pressed and lifted as they please. Gaza does not assert this sort of control on Israel, no matter how many rockets they fire.

"I disagree for a variety of reasons, one of the most prominent being the fact that while the West Bank is very attractive land in terms of development, Gaza really is, essentially, a ghetto. No one wants to live in Gaza...heck, a lot of Gazans don't want to live in Gaza, especially with conditions the way they are now. Israelis want to take the West Bank land for potentially-religious as well as economic reasons...

Neither of those apply to the Gaza Strip, which holds no religious or cultural importance and is likewise of no economic interest...who would want to give up life in the Israeli mainland (or even trying to steal land in the West Bank, for that matter) to try and settle a ruined, impoverished, ghetto of a place that would still likely have hot spots of terrorism?"

You're right, who would want to give up living in Israel to live in a land Israel has pounded into dust. The point is that the West Bank is endemic of a situation where Israel has more thorough control. Israel polices the West Bank, they are weaved into its government, and we see the result of that. They steal land and murder protesters without repercussion. It's hubris to say they would not do the same to Gaza because Gaza is worthless. The point is Israel wants land and they want control, and they will take it however the please, no matter how long it takes.

"As a final point, the UN representative on CNN just said that more displaced Gazans than ever have sought out UN shelters, because so much of Gaza is a target...and part of the reason for that is because Hamas has made so much of Gaza a target. The IDF, whatever others may think about it, DO go through the trouble to document what's hit."

Gaza is not a big area, and the people of Gaza have no where to go to escape Hamas. It's great that they document what was hit, but that does little to help refugees seeking to flee bombs and now advancing military tanks, but who are continually turned back into this violence by Israel itself and certainly Egypt (who's new government isn't the nicest of people if you've noticed).

As I've stated, Hamas is only the side effect of Israel's continued violence on Gaza. Not just in the form of bombing, but in sanctions, occupation, segregation, blockade, and a million other microaggressions that extend beyond military capacity. Hamas will continue to fight because that's all they have, and the Gaza people will be inevitably chained to that. Efforts to change this status quo, through ceasefire, UN recognition, and formation of a unity government were all derailed precisely because they were not done on Israel's terms with Israeli permission. THE ONUS THEN is on Israel, the dominant player in this situation and the one incapable of seeing change without it itself performing it, to change th

to change the status quo and better the situation in Gaza. There are no other options. Change will not come from Gaza. It MUST come from Israel, because otherwise it will be sabotaged by Israel.

How do you negotiate with a group who's stated goal is your destruction?

^What trip said.

I think a more moderate Israeli PM (and if Hamas would stop starting these wars every 2, 3 years, we could get one...people there don't like the right, but trend right when there's a war, like now) could work with the PLO, and Israel needs to withdraw from the West Bank.

But in Gaza, Hamas cannot be negotiated with.

For perspective--

Israel's killed hundreds now, many accidentally...and while the population's (shamefully) celebrated some of them, the government itself does not celebrate those deaths, as for Israel, this is a grim business.

But when Hamas killed 13 soldiers today, they were gleeful. They happily trumpeted it, as if blowing up soldiers in an ambush was the height of accomplishment...because, for Hamas, it is--that's what they train to do, what they want to do, all they're interested in doing.

You cannot negotiate with a group who revels in killing 13 of your men to the point to where you're half-surprised they're not donning war paint made from blood and going all out "Lord of the Flies."

"Change will not come from Gaza. It MUST come from Israel, because otherwise it will be sabotaged by Israel."

Israel must and will change--but if Gaza does not change, no peace will ever, ever come.

Change must come from Gaza, and it will...because at this point, the Israelis are tired of this, and now, after what Hamas did today, they're mad.

If they don't get rid of Hamas, Israel will do it for them, and impose change...because Israel doesn't tolerate this. International pressure means nothing at this point. The only voice that would stay their hand is the US, and even with Kerry going to Egypt, few believe he can broker a ceasefire at this point, and the US has supported Israel...and now will really support Israel, because now Israel can point to those 13 deaths and Hamas' disgusting reaction and get the response it wants--

"Israel has the right to defend itself."

And that'll be all Israel needs to hear. Gaza will change, because Israel will force change on Gaza...if it's going to get the blame for changing its landscape with these blasts, it may as well get what it really wants and get the poison that is Hamas out of there as well, and make all this war and these 13 lives today count for something...

Because otherwise, Gaza won't change, Hamas will do this again, and we'll be having the same conversation in 2015 or 2016. Finish the job this time.

"How do you negotiate with a group who's stated goal is your destruction?"

A lengthy post thoroughly demolished this card and you guys just repeat it.

How do you negotiate with people who refuse to listen?

*canard

Obi, you are patently ignoring many of my points and not refuting them but simply restating your position. I know you think Gaza must change. I know you think Israel thinks they can do it for them. None of this addresses the fact that Israel has been the main stopgate to change within Gaza, will offering no concession itself. You also have no addressed your uneven disparity between allowing Israeli aggression while admitting Hamas none. I ask again:

But for the other, attacks against high density targets, where innocent deaths are inevitable, and routinely number in the hundreds, are acceptable because why? Are Gazan lives worth less than Israelis? Should the Gazan people suffer for being caught in the crossfire between Hamas and Israel? Why are these attacks, which are not parity in any way, civil for one side but not the other? What justifies civilian deaths for Israel but not for Hamas? Why is going to social media an option for one but not the other? Israeli gets its cake and can eat it too?

"You haven't said a word about all the Israelis having barbeques and cheering on the violence, until the Gazans celebrate killing invaders.

Typical."

I just did, above.

And that THAT is your only response to the death of these men is likewise typical.

"Now you're waging a war against Palestinian civilians because Israel doesn't want to negotiate.

Make up your minds. You have absolutely everything, why are you refusing to negotiate?"

Because, as I stated above...Hamas, like the Tea Party, does not negotiate, PROUDLY does not negotiate, and what's more, at this point, I'd sooner Israel finish them and allow for a new, moderate party to take power. Heck, it can even be a party that dislikes Israel. But Hamas must go.

I've said that enough times now that I have to think you just willfully forget that part, and therefore willfully forget what they want and why they're not prepared to negotiate with such people, so I'll leave you to your willful smugness in the face of 100 dead in the fighting today, the worst day in 5 years...

And it could have been avoided had your beloved Hamas buckled under, accepted Egypt's ceasefire, and stopped this before Israel decided to go all-out with the ground attack.

But we couldn't have that, now, could we?

As well, I fully refuted the idea that Hamas wants to destroy Israel. This is a mute point and not the actual scenario on the ground. Why is does this drum continue to be beaten?

"Because, as I stated above...Hamas, like the Tea Party, does not negotiate, PROUDLY does not negotiate, and what's more, at this point, I'd sooner Israel finish them and allow for a new, moderate party to take power. "

So this is mainly it. No matter what concessions Hamas make, Hamas itself cannot exist as an organization? No matter how much it curbs rocket fire or attempts to change itself and form a unity government, it must go because Israel says so? Does this sound like a rational, even plain of negotiation and trust? Do you not realize you are calling for the complete destruction of one side while admonishing the other for perceived same idea?

@Chairman:

Not ignoring you, check back later, I'll respond to all your points in full. :)

Until then, let Putin regale you with another few posts on how conquest and war are totally not the same thing and how conquest is totally a peaceful solution.

Totally.

Because when I think of the great peacemakers of our time...

Well, really, which of them DIDN'T advocate conquering their enemy like Conan the Barbarian?

"I just did, above."

Do you bother to read Obiwan? You said nothing about the continual celebrations going on Israel until Gazans do something, far later, after being invaded, and defeating soldiers at that.

"Hamas, like the Tea Party, does not negotiate, PROUDLY does not negotiate"

This is just false. Unbelievably false.

"so I'll leave you to your willful smugness in the face of 100 dead in the fighting today, the worst day in 5 years..."

Those dead are because of Israel. If you were really outraged you wouldn't be cheering them on.

"And it could have been avoided had your beloved Hamas buckled under, accepted Egypt's ceasefire, and stopped this before Israel decided to go all-out with the ground attack."

Israel was hellbent on invading come hell or high water. The teens were just an excuse. The bullshit ceasefire after their bombardment was just a ruse.

"But we couldn't have that, now, could we?"

Israel is never responsible for anything. They have an endless parade of excuses and an endless parade of slogans.

"Not ignoring you, check back later, I'll respond to all your points in full. "

Which will just be repetitions of the same theme. Ignore the evidence and chant the same slogan about Hamas.

Both sides are just jockeying for position before negotating a treaty.

Hamas wants international sympathy as their playing card and has it since they knew that Isreal would come down very, very hard, and Israel played into their hands.

Israel's position is, as always, to show no weakness.

Neither side is looking after the interests of the people they claim to represent.

Hardly a scientific or statistically valid opinion, but both of the handful of Palestinians and Israelis I've talked to (all working professionals) said that they could work out their differences and work together if the damn politicians would just get out of the way.

Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang - Do you know there is a group set up by Zionists just to spread worldwide propaganda about Israel (and Palestine) in an attempt to get them a better press ..... I would guess Obi is part of this or just shares their stance.
You seem to think he offers intelligent objective discussion on the subject when in fact he just writes lots of words, there is a difference, don't let the barrage of rhetoric baffle you.
You can write all the words you want but if it is just bullshit for the sole intention of trying to spin a message, and the message seems to be, Hamas is making all of this happen, starting from the 3 Israelis that died, Hamas. The continual brutality by the IDF against stone throwing Palestinian (or American) teenagers, Hamas.
The deaths of all innocent Palestinian men, women and children, Hamas.
Is there any other story Israeli propaganda machine has to offer. It is not just Obi, there seems to be a concerted effort by Zionists worldwide just to keep up with the same message, it is not by chance, it is not random.
I will assume you already know this so why give credibility to the bullshit ramblings of Obi, has he convinced you there is a point to this slaughter?

Why send Norwegian doctors to Gaza if they just can't handle it......

Letter from Norwegian hero doctor who is in Gaza right now
Dr. Mads Gilbert MD PhD

Dearest friends -
The last night was extreme. The "ground invasion" of Gaza resulted in scores and carloads with maimed, torn apart, bleeding, shivering, dying - all sorts of injured Palestinians, all ages, all civilians, all innocent.
The heroes in the ambulances and in all of Gaza's hospitals are working 12-24hrs shifts, grey from fatigue and inhuman workloads (without payment all in Shifa for the last 4 months), they care, triage, try to understand the incomprehensible chaos of bodies, sizes, limbs, walking, not walking, breathing, not breathing, bleeding, not bleeding humans. HUMANS!
Now, once more treated like animals by "the most moral army in the world" (sic!).
My respect for the wounded is endless, in their contained determination in the midst of pain, agony and shock; my admiration for the staff and volunteers is endless, my closeness to the Palestinian "sumud" gives me strength, although in glimpses I just want to scream, hold someone tight, cry, smell the skin and hair of the warm child, covered in blood, protect ourselves in an endless embrace - but we cannot afford that, nor can they.
Ashy grey faces - Oh NO! not one more load of tens of maimed and bleeding, we still have lakes of blood on the floor in the ER, piles of dripping, blood-soaked bandages to clear out - oh - the cleaners, everywhere, swiftly shovelling the blood and discarded tissues, hair, clothes,cannulas - the leftovers from death - all taken away...to be prepared again, to be repeated all over. More then 100 cases came to Shifa last 24 hrs. enough for a large well trained hospital with everything, but here - almost nothing: electricity, water, disposables, drugs, OR-tables, instruments, monitors - all rusted and as if taken from museums of yesterdays hospitals.But they do not complain, these heroes. They get on with it, like warriors, head on, enormous resolute.t

And as I write these words to you, alone, on a bed, my tears flows, the warm but useless tears of pain and grief, of anger and fear. This is not happening!
An then, just now, the orchestra of the Israeli war-machine starts its gruesome symphony again, just now: salvos of artillery from the navy boats just down on the shores, the roaring F16, the sickening drones (Arabic 'Zennanis', the hummers), and the cluttering Apaches. So much made and paid in and by US.
Mr. Obama - do you have a heart?
I invite you - spend one night - just one night - with us in Shifa. Disguised as a cleaner, maybe.
I am convinced, 100%, it would change history.
Nobody with a heart AND power could ever walk away from a night in Shifa without being determined to end the slaughter of the Palestinian people.
But the heartless and merciless have done their calculations and planned another "dahyia" onslaught on Gaza.
The rivers of blood will keep running the coming night. I can hear they have tuned their instruments of death.
Please. Do what you can. This, THIS cannot continue.
Mads
Gaza, Occupied Palestine
Mads Gilbert MD PhD
Professor and Clinical Head
Clinic of Emergency Medicine
University Hospital of North Norway

Yes Nigee, war is hell, we all know.

It is not a war. It is a massacre. It is an act of state terror against a desperate people.

Hamas, Jamiet? I'm sorry, when the other side tunnels into your territory and shoots 2,000 rockets at you, it's a war.

Call it a lopsided war if you wish, but it IS a war...between Hamas and Israel, it is most certainly a war. It's disingenuous to pretend that Hamas is a peace-seeking group that's committed no act of war when they've rejected ceasefires, have captured soldiers, have rocketed cities even more indiscriminately than the Israelis (Israel just has the ability to intercept those murderous attempts, it doesn't mean Hamas didn't TRY and massacre Israelis themselves), tunnel into Israel, and let's not forget, literally run on a platform that advocated killing all Israelis.

That doesn't count as fighting a war? Those murderous intentions don't count?

Tell me, hypothetically--if the Israelis were without the Iron Dome, and the casualties were even, and the amount of destruction and encroachment into either side were all even...would that assuage you? Would that make it more "a war?"

Even casualties and destruction? I should think that pro-peace advocates would be less in favor of such a thing...well, except Putin, but his idea of peace is conquering the whole Strip, so I think we can exclude him (I will, anyway...type away, my friend, type away...)

Again, call it a war where the casualties are lopsided, but it IS a war...and frankly, to say otherwise goes against Hamas' own attitudes and sentiments anyway, THEY'RE treating this like it's a war...Israel is treating it like a war...

If the combatants treat it as a war, and it is by all measures a war (albeit a lopsided one) then what, pray tell, do you have to have to say to make it not a war, except that it is lopsided--and if that's the case, well, wouldn't evening out the imbalance with more Israeli deaths make it just MORE of "a massacre?" It'd still be a massacre, just on both sides.

@ obiwanobiwan: I'm not going to go round in circles with you again. I think I've made my position clear. If you want to present Israel's actions as self-defence, you do that. In the meantime their "self-defence" is killing hundreds of innocent people and destroying the lives of thousands more.

Before I comb through your tome (hooray, rhyme, lol) /@Chairmain:

"So this is mainly it. No matter what concessions Hamas make, Hamas itself cannot exist as an organization? No matter how much it curbs rocket fire or attempts to change itself and form a unity government, it must go because Israel says so? Does this sound like a rational, even plain of negotiation and trust? Do you not realize you are calling for the complete destruction of one side while admonishing the other for perceived same idea?"

1. No. Hamas cannot exist. It has had years to change now...this is the third war since 2009. That's absurd. The money that Israel gave them for infrastructure went into these tunnels and to rockets--NOT to improving Gaza. how many times do you have to be bitten by the same snake before you look to chop its head off?

2. What's more, Chairman, you keep speaking about the possibility of their changing--I have to ask...on what basis do you think they can or will? Third war in five years, they're BETTER equipped this time, with MORE rockets and MORE spent on violent ends rather than the peaceful ones you advocate, and again, they RUN on the "Destroy All Israelis" platform, and they have not changed that position one iota.

Why on EARTH should Israel feel Hamas will change...why should I believe that argument from you...why should Israel believe it from anyone who makes it, for that matter? You have to show signs of change for such an argument to be believable...what's the sign of change? Where is it, when their political platform is the same, their intents the same, their weapons and arsenal increased, their connections to other terror groups (such as the Muslim Brotherhood, hence why Egypt's closed ITS borders) and every other estimable measure of change remains utterly lacking?

3. For that matter, I'll pose the question to everyone here--we are treating this as if Israel's the only one who has issues with Hamas...and, again, they're NOT. Egypt dislikes them as well. Egypt's closed their borders over this. So, I ask--in this court of opinion, does this count for nothing? (Well, it counts for nothing with Putin, and Nigee, but to the rest of you, who I presume are not locked in...does it count for nothing that other nations also hate Hamas? We're treating this as if this is a one on one squabble, or that Israel's the only one that has a problem with Hamas, but in fact, there are plenty of nations that dislike Hamas...if we're going to hold international opinion against Israel, why doesn't the same happen with Hamas?)

4. I would also ask those here--who here LIKES Hamas? Speaking from your own vantage point, in a Western nation, who here likes what Hamas stands for and who here thinks that, were it to maintain power, it would be a party you'd like to see in control of a full-fledged nation? We're seeing what ISIS is doing in Iraq and Syria now...and we see what the Muslim Brotherhood stands for...may I ask who here wants to see another head of that hydra prosper? These groups are ideologically similar, too, so it's not like an Iraq/Iran situation in the 1990s, where the West had issues with each but those nations likewise disliked one another, so you were in a way talking about two different menaces...I think hydra is an appropriate metaphor--they have their own "heads," as it were, but they're still tied to the same anti-woman, anti-Western, Antisemitic, caliphate-centered ideology.

You may hate Israel. That's fine, that's your right. I understand if you do.

But if you think Israel is the greater of the two evils ideologically, tell me why--and answer me this...if every other measure of the state, from the infrastructure to the political power and wealth, was equal...whose ideology would you rather, that of the Israeli people or that of ISIS, the Muslim Brotherhood, and Hamas?

And if you'd like to live with the latter, again--why? NOT just why you dislike Israel...tell me why you'd WANT to live with those above groups.

5. I've asked you what possible signs there are that Hamas is changing or would ever change, Chairman, and not in a hypothetical sense, but actual tangible change that you can point to and say "Here is Hamas stepping away from being a violent Antisemitic terror group in the vein of ISIS and the Muslim Brotherhood."

I say that there is none--and that THAT is why they must go.

Israel can change, and has demonstrated that via a time-honored democratic measure of that, namely, the transference of power from one ideology and party to another. With Israel, you can vote in a new parliament, get a new PM, and get reform and change. Hamas is not like that, because Hamas is a terrorist group and a political party, and NOT the state itself. I daresay it's holding the state hostage from the Gazans who may well hate Israel, but hate Hamas as well.

What's more, Israel is a legitimate state. Hamas is not.

You should not destroy a legitimate state (something Putin seems to have a problem with when it comes to pro-Russian fighters trying to tear Ukraine apart...because, of course, conquest equals peace to him.)

Hamas is not a state, and has showed no signs of change, and has showed no reason to believe it will change, that it wants to change, and proudly trumpets how much it HASN'T changed and, indeed, has arguably intensified its already existent position. It is illogical to expect someone who proudly proclaims they are "constant as the Northern Star" to change, and so it is with Hamas.

You have to convince me. That's the task before you, Chairman...what possible reason do you have to convince me that they can, want to, will or would even consider changing?

Because supposing that fact alone no longer is an option--not after War #3. At that point, it reaches the point where it's happened three times now...that's enough to wear, with no indications to the contrary, you say enough is enough, and you take out the group that will not change from this course of hurting you, and hope to replace it with one that will not, which brings me to my final point, to all of you--

6. This is a war between Israel and Hamas. I've said this numerous times now, but that bears repeating, as that's a vital distinction--

There is far too much acting as if the enemy Israel is fighting is Gaza. Gaza is what's betting bombed to Bedrock right now, but they're NOT at war with Gaza itself, nor those people, and if you doubt that, I ask you--

Suppose Hamas were in the West Bank instead, rather than Gaza--would the same fight be occurring right now, if instead of from Gaza, those rockets and tunnels were coming from the West Bank? Or, suppose further, that they were coming from Jordan, and Hamas was holed up there and rocketed and tunneled from there--would the same war be going on?

Yes, and the reason?

The only constant in all three of those scenarios is HAMAS--it's ancillary to them from where they attack, and who gets hurt in the crossfire.

Gazans are getting killed in the crossfire, but Israel didn't declare war on those families, doesn't seek to destroy the people of Gaza, but only seek to destroy Hamas, wherever Hamas may be. They're in Gaza now, so it's Gaza that's being pounded, but they COULD just as easily be in Jordan or Lebanon or the West Bank...and then we'd be talking about those regions being blasted apart.

Therefore, this is not a war between peoples, but a war between the Israeli government and the organization of Hamas, wherever Hamas may be.

And if you doubt that, or question that, please answer the above point.

Israel is at war with Hamas,
Hamas is in Gaza,
Ergo, Gaza is what suffers in the crossfire.

It could JUST AS EASILY be any other nation or territory bordering the region...

Which AGAIN is why Egypt's closed its borders in part, it doesn't want this mess to come into ITS backyard.

"If you want to present Israel's actions as self-defence, you do that. In the meantime their "self-defence" is killing hundreds of innocent people and destroying the lives of thousands more."

Their self-defense kills so many people because Hamas chooses a battleground that's 1.8 million people packed into a 25 mile strip, and battles from within there.

If you think any other army attacking Hamas under those conditions WOULDN'T result in such a high death toll, please tell me who, how, and why.

Otherwise, again...it's HAMAS that chooses the battlefield. They choose to fight on the border and in Gaza. If they wanted to go out into the desert and settle it out in the open, away from militants, I guarantee Israel would be ecstatic to do so, as 1. They wouldn't have so many dead in their wake, 2. They wouldn't have to deal with the diplomatic nightmare that creates, and 3. They'd WIN, once and for all.

And Hamas knows that. They know they can't win in an open fight, so they fight a guerrilla war instead...

And when THEY choose that battlefield, THEY deserve the blame, rather like someone throwing a punch at you in a china house and then blaming you for the fact that the ensuing scuffle left a thoroughly shattered shop in its wake.