I'm sure Obi and Santa will defend Palestinian retaliation for Israel's targeted assassinations of boys/young men right? Right. Of course they will. Because they value non-Israeli lives so much and have such consistent opinions.

"At this point Isis is almost a conventional army rather than a terrorist group. "

sigh....it is a Conventional Army that is an army *for* a terrorist organization, supporting the objectives of a terrorist organization --- it is therefore a terrorist army.

^For once I agree with krellin.

Being a conventional army doesn't earn you respectability...ISIS is merely a well-organized terrorist organization...indeed, a terrorist army.

Terrorist simply means anything you don't like.

They are winning pitched battles with the INA, their tactics are not terroristic at this point.

I like how ISIS are terrorists though now that they're fighting in Iraq. When they're killing and crucifying Syrians you don't say anything about them.

"And obiwan, you presumably believe the fire-bombing of Dresden was not a war crime, since we were at war with Germany at the time, and the German people had allowed the Nazis to take power?"

You're talking to the same person (Santa) who defended the atomic bombing of Japan so I'm sure he'll have no problem defending the firebombing of German cities.

@Maniac:

Yes, I am aware of that, hence my intentional parallel.

I'm asking you to imagine that situation even more persistent, though--

Daily rocket attacks and bombings in London...and say the IRA was bent on not just bombing and killing British citizens and military personnel in Ireland and elsewhere, but outright exterminating Britain as a whole, every last citizen.

That's Hamas--they want the destruction of every man, woman, child and stone of Israel...

Would you REALLY care to live under the shadow of constant rocket and bombing attacks by an enemy that wants to kill every last one of you...would you not seize your opportunity and root that poison out, so you can (in this hypothetical) negotiate with the Irish who wanted peace?

I VERY MUCH sympathize with the Palestinian Liberation Organization...

The PLO's been reasonable, and Israel ENTIRELY *UNREASONABLE* in their demands on the West Bank.

So I'm not just backing Israel in every case...

But I WILL back them against Hamas--in that case, I feel they are in the right, and are justified.

"At no time did I ever wish that my government (the uk government) would ever engage in unlawful violence."

It is the sovereign right of a nation to protect itself.

That some may do so better than others is no shame.

It would by no means by unlawful or immoral if London were attacked in such a fashion to respond in force--London's first duty is to London, and its people, as is the case with Tel Aviv.

"You both think the violence is justified, then, Santa and obiwan?"

In some instances, yes, in others, no--it honestly depends on the specifics of the incident...unpacking each of these instances regarding Palestinian citizens lobbying explosives and Israeli soldiers opening fire and seeing who did what first and who is to blame in each INDIVIDUAL instance, rather than make a blanket claim that it's all one side's fault merely because they have the bigger, better funded side.

"
It is the sovereign right of a nation to protect itself."

Unless it's a country you don't like.

"And obiwan, you presumably believe the fire-bombing of Dresden was not a war crime, since we were at war with Germany at the time, and the German people had allowed the Nazis to take power?"

To quote good old Francis Urquhart again...

"You might think that--you might very well think that. I couldn't possibly comment."

(In all serious, though, I don't know enough about the specifics of Dresden to comment, for real, so I don't know if I'd consider it a war crime or not, I'd need to know more...see, that's the odd thing, I actually like to be somewhat informed on a situation before forming an opinion, rather than just going with what sounds or looks or feels right and fashionable to the symbol-trained ear.)

"That's Hamas--they want the destruction of every man, woman, child and stone of Israel..."

No, they want to destroy the Israeli state. Much like the Israeli government wants to destroy Palestinian nationalism. Way to use emotion to muddy the waters.

Hamas is always the excuse now. Before the PLO/Arafat was the excuse. They always have an excuse to never bother negotiating.

"Unless it's a country you don't like."

Russia can defend itself...North Korea can...

They have a right to defend themselves, NOT a right to oppress their own people, THAT'S my issue with country #2 on that list, at least. (One of many, but one at a time.)

They can defend themselves all they like.

"(In all serious, though, I don't know enough about the specifics of Dresden to comment, for real"

Right, you have an opinion on every single other human rights crime done by countries you don't like, but one of the most notorious crimes of WWII you don't have an opinion on. How convenient.

Which is why you've been condemning Russia for defending Russians from Ukrainian aggression, and condemning Syria for defending itself vs terrorism.

I call bullshit.

""That's Hamas--they want the destruction of every man, woman, child and stone of Israel..."

No, they want to destroy the Israeli state."

...Explain the difference? O.o

Explain the difference between "Hamas wants to destroy Israel" and "Hamas wants to destroy the Israeli state?"

Do you really want to suggest Hamas is peachy-keen with Jews, and would stop attacks on them right now if Israel ceased to be?

"Right, you have an opinion on every single other human rights crime done by countries you don't like, but one of the most notorious crimes of WWII you don't have an opinion on. How convenient."

I don't have an opinion on the Rwandan Genocide...

Or the situation in Darfur...

Or the situation in Kosovo...

See, shockingly--I know, this is going to come as a shock--I DON'T KNOW *EVERY ATROCITY EVER.*

I'm sorry...would you prefer me to give an ill-conceived opinion on Dresden instead, so you can criticize that?

It's the same as the difference between you and all your neo-con friends wanting to destroying the Iranian regime, but not the Iranian people. Or the Soviet regime, but presumably not the Soviet people. Or the North Korean regime, and presumably (although I can never tell with you) the North Korean people.

Why can you tell the difference in those instances but not with Israel? Because you have to use emotion to muddy the waters.

Israel wants the Hamas government destroyed but presumably not the Palestinian people, right?

"Do you really want to suggest Hamas is peachy-keen with Jews, and would stop attacks on them right now if Israel ceased to be?"

I have no way of knowing for sure. Just like I have no way of knowing if Israel would stop attacking Arabs if Hamas and the Palestinians disappeared.

"I don't have an opinion on the Rwandan Genocide..."

The fact that you call it a genocide is an opinion.

That'd be like saying you don't have an opinion on the Dresden genocide.

"the whole notion that 'terrorism' is a warfare issue is debatable. Mostly, in terms of actual threat and of most effective methods, it's a law enforcement issue. You don't stop terrorism with armies. You stop it with effective detective work and policing.

This whole idea of the War On Terror was a political idea, not an analytical one."

I agree with you on the "War on Terror" point as well as the idea that it's a political issue--

But I think, after years of fighting with Hezbollah and Hamas...

If that's not a war, what is?

"The fact that you call it a genocide is an opinion.

That'd be like saying you don't have an opinion on the Dresden genocide."

You really are the most impossible person on this site to talk to...which is saying something.

That's what I've heard it called.
That's ALL I've ever heard it called.
So if it's called something ELSE...I DON'T KNOW...

GEE, IT'S ALMOST LIKE I DON'T KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT THE CASE TO FORM AN OPINION...

LIKE. I. SAID. -_-

But you know plenty about all the crimes committed by the Axis powers, or socialist states, or anybody who doesn't adore Israel.

Of course you do.

The PLO Charter still calls for the destruction of Israel over 30 years after the PLO agreed to remove that part when they signed the Oslo Accords.

"Pour encourage les autres" is the French policy of to encourage the others by execution to convince others in a group to obey or submit. The European hypocrites were using collective punishment long before Israel and still do.

Yeah...because, shock of shocks...

Growing up in a Jewish-American household, I heard more and read more about the Allied win vs. the Axis in WWII and the Israeli/Palestine/Middle East issue than somewhere like Rwanda.

Shock of shocks, I know, cultural background dictating what you grow up learning.

"The PLO Charter still calls for the destruction of Israel over 30 years after the PLO agreed to remove that part when they signed the Oslo Accords."

Didn't say I agreed with the PLO all the way...

Just said I sympathize with them to an extent, and especially regarding settlers, where Israel really is in the wrong (politically and morally) regarding the West Bank...

Something that some Israelis have figured out, hence why you have Israeli settlers fighting other Israelis over those settlements.

"It's the same as the difference between you and all your neo-con friends wanting to destroying the Iranian regime, but not the Iranian people."

1. No, Hamas DOES want to destroy the Israeli people, and

2. Dude, I'm a liberal to everyone on this site BUT you...

Don't fucking call me a neo-conservative.

That's as accurate as calling krellin a libtard.

Sorry I'm not in the 99th percentile of the Left.

You learned about the 'Allied win' but not about human beings suffering other than those the Allies care about.

Of course you learned nothing but propaganda, but that still doesn't seem to have generated any kind of critical thinking.

"The PLO Charter still calls for the destruction of Israel over 30 years after the PLO agreed to remove that part when they signed the Oslo Accords. "

And plenty of high ranking Israelis claim the Palestinian people don't exist. Your point?

"1. No, Hamas DOES want to destroy the Israeli people, and"

That's because you equate the Israeli state to the Israeli people, but yet you don't do that for any other case, because you need to use emotion to muddy the waters.

"2. Dude, I'm a liberal to everyone on this site BUT you...

Don't fucking call me a neo-conservative."

Then stop acting like one.

I notice you completely dodged the point about the Iranian regime vs Iranian people, etc

Thanks for not bothering to respond again.

"I have no way of knowing for sure."

So when I say I don't know enough about Rwanda to comment--and then back it up by inadvertently demonstrating my professed ignorance--THAT'S out of bounds...

But you're allowed to say you "don't know enough for sure" about something?

That works for you, but not for me, does it?

"Just like I have no way of knowing if Israel would stop attacking Arabs if Hamas and the Palestinians disappeared."

1. Palestinians and Hamas are NOT THE SAME...

2. Then let's get rid of Hamas and find the fuck out (I know you won't go for that at all, I'm appealing to the other folks here--get rid of Hamas and Hezbollah, and if Israel doesn't commit to peace THEN, IMMEDIATELY, I'll formally recant.)

"So when I say I don't know enough about Rwanda to comment--and then back it up by inadvertently demonstrating my professed ignorance--THAT'S out of bounds...

But you're allowed to say you "don't know enough for sure" about something?"

One event is the past one event is the future. You do know the difference between the future and the past, right? And considering how much you geniuses enjoy harping on any prediction I might get wrong, why should I make any more predictions?

"
1. Palestinians and Hamas are NOT THE SAME..."

You just got done saying they were because the Palestinians elected Hamas. The Palestinians haven't voted for Abbas in ages.

"Then let's get rid of Hamas and find the fuck out"

It certainly hasn't mattered in the West Bank, where Palestinians haven't even been resisting for years. They still keep expanding settlements.

"I notice you completely dodged the point about the Iranian regime vs Iranian people, etc"

I ANSWERED IT.

IT IS NOT A COMMENSURATE POINT, AS I SAID, HAMAS *DOES* WANT TO KILL THE ISRAELI *PEOPLE TOO.*

Would you like me to say "Yes, I don't want the Iranian people dead, just a regime change?"

Fine--let me piss you off doubly now...

I not only want want peace for the Iranian people and a regime change (though we'll see if this new policy shift works, and ironically the whole ISIS thing might make an odd alliance of convenience between Israel and Iran via mutual opposition)..

I'd love that so I could go there and tour around with my IRANIAN FRIEND--

Erm, sorry--"my friend that supports Iran and is from Iran."

BUT, Hamas doesn't WANT a regime change...they want Israeli men, women, and children DEAD, as well as the state COMPLETELY destroyed.