Hmm putin, can you also provide me with a statistic of how many defenseless eastern Europeans were killed by the hands of the soviets?

A right to protect against standing armies with militias that were deemed worthless by Washington himself. Never mind, no strict constructionist ever bothered worry about context. The constitution is a suicide pact to you people.

"Why do you just make crap up like this?"

His number probably did include suicides, assuming he didn't make it up out of whole cloth.

yea, i did some research after putin posted that, turns out it was BS, im amazed how easily putin can dish out lies.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/21/american-gun-out-control-porter

"I'm lazy"

The truest thing you've ever said.

To absorb the scale of the mayhem, it's worth trying to guess the death toll of all the wars in American history since the War of Independence began in 1775, and follow that by estimating the number killed by firearms in the US since the day that Robert F. Kennedy was shot in 1968 by a .22 Iver-Johnson handgun, wielded by Sirhan Sirhan. The figures from Congressional Research Service, plus recent statistics from icasualties.org, tell us that from the first casualties in the battle of Lexington to recent operations in Afghanistan, the toll is 1,171,177. By contrast, the number killed by firearms, including suicides, since 1968, according to the Centres for Disease Control and Prevention and the FBI, is 1,384,171.

And there's the dodge and personal attack.

"yea, i did some research after putin posted that, turns out it was BS, im amazed how easily putin can dish out lies."

Apologize or shut the fuck up.

Dodge? There's the quote and the sources.

You're a bunch of suburban bros who think guns are cool. You want to pretend like you give a damn about the constitutional argument when it's all smoke and mirrors for the gun lobby.

"Why do you just make crap up like this?"

Apologize or shut the fuck up.

Exactly, including suicides. Those are tragedies, but hardly "gun violence."

"'I'm lazy'

"The truest thing you've ever said."

First of all, I didn't say that. I know you love to quote people and remove words to change the meaning, but it's a bad idea to do it to the person you're quoting. FWIW, if you remove the ellipses and change the meaning, it's a lie.

Second of all, the change I made to do laziness helped your case, dummy. You'd have been shown for even more of a deceiver if I'd bothered to use true numbers.

Finally, this article predictably lumps in suicide -- a point I already addressed. It's plainly absurd to count that number in this comparison, so you're just flamboyantly displaying your utter disregard for actual truth-finding with statistics. Anything to help your case.

Apologize? Lolno.

"'Why do you just make crap up like this?'

"Apologize or shut the fuck up."

Sorry for assuming that you were deceiving by making stuff up, as you have in the past, instead of deceiving by quoting statistics that are completely irrelevant to your point, as you did this time.

It's violent death via a gun.

But no amount of death would make you people give up your guns. So again, stop pretending. You'll pull out the 'car accident' canard, if all else fails.

Before this conversation spirals out of control, I'd just like to say that including suicide can make sense, if you consider how much easier it is to kill yourself with a gun than most other methods. Certainly not the same as gang violence, but something to consider.

Something to consider, but not to make the point that gun violence in America has caused more deaths than all of America's wars combined. That's a beautiful example of how there are lies, damn lies, and statistics.

You could make a case for including a small fraction of the numbers, abge, but it would be too small to save the probitive value of putin's point.

This is all disingenuous nonsense from people who have said over and over again that public safety is not their concern. Only their bizarre interpretation of the 2nd amendment matters.

"It's violent death via a gun."

The US is not particularly high on the list of Western nations by suicide rate, so it is hard to make the case that guns are a big factor in enabling suicides that would not otherwise happen, putin. So you're just deliberately muddying the waters to support your outrageous claim, surprising nobody.

"Sorry for assuming that you were deceiving by making stuff up, as you have in the past, "

Prove it or apologize, liar.

"quoting statistics that are completely irrelevant to your point, as you did this time."

Death by firearms is not irrelevant, you NRA ass kissing liar.

"This is all disingenuous nonsense from people who have said over and over again that public safety is not their concern. Only their bizarre interpretation of the 2nd amendment matters."

And this somehow makes it OK for you to lie with statistics?

Yours is the bizarre interpretation, Putin33.

"Prove it or apologize, liar. "

You asked for it. You'll get it. Please stand by.

"The US is not particularly high on the list of Western nations by suicide rate, so it is hard to make the case that guns are a big factor in enabling suicides that would not otherwise happen, putin."

That weakens your case, dummy. If the bulk of those gun deaths aren't suicide then what is all your huffing and puffing about?

"That weakens your case, dummy. If the bulk of those gun deaths aren't suicide then what is all your huffing and puffing about? "

They are suicide. They're just suicide that would have happened by some other method otherwise, so they can't rightly be attributed as deaths that were enabled by guns.

"Yours is the bizarre interpretation, Putin33."

Mine is the interpretation of the Courts pre DC v. Heller, which was the standard interpretation for 200+ years. Yours is the anomaly, this mythical personal right to gun toys.

"They're just suicide that would have happened by some other method otherwise, so they can't rightly be attributed as deaths that were enabled by guns."

They would have happened otherwise? You know this for certain, do you?

If someone's decided to kill themselves they'll do it with or without a gun. You can't outlaw ropes.