Thanks for the latest advice 2WL!

I'm struggling a bit mentally, to wrap my head around that visit to the chiropractor... I'm not trying to kill myself here... I'm starting to think that August should be about focusing on "not racing myself every time I run." Think I need to throw away the stop watch and just cover the distance comfortably and in a way my body can handle it... We'll see, I can be prone to change my mind quickly and often, think I'll take it one step at a time, just like a game of diplomacy, constantly re-evaluating everything to maximize my ability to accomplish my goals, and sometimes even adjusting my goals...

Got back from a week-long road trip to Yellowstone and the Tetons around 3pm, was at the track for a run around 6pm! I didn't run on the trip at all, but hiked Mt. Washburn (7 miles round trip, ~1400 ft. elevation gain), walked at least 4 miles at Old Faithful, did another hike at Jenny Lake (only ~1mile and 600 feet elevation gain) and quite a bit of walking around other places...

10K Progression To Date:

June 29th: 59:32 (splits: 9:05, 9:12, 9:19, 9:37, 10:22, 9:49, 9:28)
July 6th: 59:11 (splits: 9:58, 9:40, 9:32, 9:33, 9:27, 9:12, 8:24)
July 24th: 57:59 (splits: 8:32, 9:00, 9:06, 9:47, 9:58, 9:53, 8:06)
July 31st: 56:43 (splits: 9:11, 8:59, 9:07, 9:11, 9:03, 9:24, 8:36)
Aug. 14th: 55:35 (splits: 8:02, 9:04, 8:57, 9:14, 9:18, 9:06, 8:53)

Looking good Marx!

My official marathon training program starts next week.

That's really good... that's a ton of improvement.

I'm starting to think the improvement is mostly mental and weight loss... When I run 10K, my heart is beating pretty fast, and today I used a heart rate monitor for the first time. I had a half marathon on the schedule, and the first half of the run I was able to keep my HR in the 160's, but even as my pace slowed down considerably (a couple late miles in the 12 minute range, ouch!), the second half of my run my HR was in the low 170's! This tells me my base conditioning has a ways to go, and it's a bit concerning since my max HR is supposed to be 180 (I'm 40), so exercising at a max of 90% would mean a max HR of 162!!

August 15th: Weight = 214.6 (22.1 lbs lost)
August 17th: 13.13 miles in 2:24:00 (10:58/mile)

Hal Higdon recommends these "long runs" on the weekend at a pace 30-90 minutes slower than your marathon pace, and I felt like I started slow and at a good HR, yet on a run that's over two hours long, my heart apparently starts to get a bit tired...

30-90 *seconds* (per mile) slower, that is...

Man keep up that weight loss! If you need to in your later miles, stop and walk for a bit to get your heart rate down. When I start speed training I tend to yo-yo a lot. IE- getting heart rate up and then walking to bring it back down a bit.

This morning we had a birthday celebration at work. I had a piece of pie with whipped cream, a cookie, chunk of scone, small latte, oj, and then did my 7 mile run about an hour and a half later in 80 degree weather along with a bit of smoke from some fires in the area. Felt great! I started off planning to take things pretty casually, not wanting to race myself, but as I ran I kept feeling good so I tried to speed it up the last few miles, ended up with a nice bell curve.

Aug. 21th: 7 miles in 1:04:07 (9:09/mile)

Splits: 9:08, 9:14, 9:38, 9:14, 9:15, 9:08, 8:30

Could possibly just be cardiac drift. Basically at an even pace/effort your heart rate will begin to drift upwards over time without any changes to breathing/effort, etc. just natural. Of course if you slowed down 2 min/mile then you were likely hurting!

How was that 13 miler? You running trails or roads? Any group to go with? Bring water/gatorade with you or set it on the course?

Take it nice and easy on those long runs. Conversational pace is plenty fast enough while training for your first. Use those shorter runs to introduce some tempo miles and hills to boost your conditioning.

I just picked up a second November marathon (Flying Monkey - http://www.harpethhillsmarathon.com/ - looks like a bitch!) two weeks after my original marathon. Its got 7200 ft. of elevation change, so I don't think I'll be racing, but using it as a training run for a 50 miler three weeks later. Then I think I'll rest for a while :)

Seems like when I start a long run slow, I just get slower... Think I run much more inefficiently slower, so I wear down quicker per mile, if that makes any sense. For instance, when running 7 miles yesterday, I felt really good the whole time running an average of a 9:09 mile, yet the first 7 miles of my 13.1 mile run I was getting pretty wiped out running more than one minute slower per mile. Perhaps it's partially mental where I know the distance I need to go and the double-digit runs are still too new to me to be able to wrap my head around them.

Anyway, I may do some testing at the local sports lab, determine my actual MHR and VO2 max, that sort of stuff. It's interesting to me.

Anyway, Gen. Lee, I ran my half marathon on the track! My step-mom thinks I'm crazy since that would be so terribly boring, but I have my music and I've always enjoyed being on "campus" (local community college). Anyway, I went through three 18 oz. water bottles and two similarly sized Gatorade bottles on the run.

I'm not a fan of a group. I like to go when the feeling strikes (even if I go Saturday morning, I show up anywhere from 8am to 10am to run. Also, I'd be too paranoid about slowing people down or people needing to accommodate me, I prefer to not be a burden.

As far as the conversation pace, when I run, my heart is beating pretty fast, so I guess those elliptical sessions have a lot of merit for me, they keep my HR in the 130's most of the time!

I've always felt that its possible to run "too slow," where you're actually using more energy to move slowly than you would at an optimal pace, kind of like a car being supposedly most efficient at 55, etc. If the pace isn't comfortable, definitely speed up, especially if you can still manage the distance and it isn't too taxing.

You have to know you're optimum stride, i.e. the longest stride you can do without using more energy

2WL, I'm confident I cannot manage the distance *and* it will be too taxing... That said, I think I'll try to maintain a pace around 9:00/mile or so on my next few long runs, and when my heart rate starts to get out of control I'll just walk for a bit... I think I can come up with some sort of approach to incorporate on race day that relates to aid stations on the course being about every three miles, especially since I still have a couple months before race day.

Having to rethink my training... I got a HR monitor and wanted to try keeping my HR around 75% of my (yet to be determined) max. Using the standard guesstimate (180 since I'm 40), I was shooting for 135 beats per minute... Less than one minute into my 10 mile run my HR was at 140 and after completing my first lap at the track it was at 150, and I was only running at a 9-1/2 minute mile pace!

The last lap of my 10 mile run I decided to see how high I could get my HR. I took it from around 170 up to 189, so I now know my max HR is at least in the mid 190's, which makes me feel a little better, but I still need to figure this all out...

My current thought, for race day, is to not pay attention to my total/final time *at all*, since I'm a new runner, jog around a 10 minute mile between aid stations, and then walk for about 3 minutes to get my HR down. I did this at around the 7 mile mark today (during which my HR quickly went down into the 130's) and after that my HR seemed to stabilize around 160 while running, which would be about 80% if my max is 200... Still too high for a "casual" training day, but hopefully by paying attention I can improve in the near future...

Probably what I need to do most is switch a day or two each week away from the elliptical and to the track, on Tue/Thu, and do my 3-4 mile runs slow enough to keep my HR below 70%, maybe even around 60%, which may initially require me to walk fast rather than jog, but it seems like my base fitness is still non-existent... My whole life I've done start/stop sports (basketball, baseball, football, tennis, wrestling), and no endurance sports (I even hated soccer, too much running!), so this is all new to me (and my heart!), unfortunately it shows...

Actually, before my ten mile run today, I tried to determine my max HR by walking one mile very fast, and add 60 to my average HR for the last quarter mile... Maybe I needed to swing my arms much more aggressively while walking because I couldn't even get my HR up to 120 in that mile... So, if my HR max is around 200, 60% will be just a tad faster than my fastest walk...

Today I jogged 5 miles very slowly, but kept my HR in the 130's the entire time, and mostly in the low to mid 130's. I'm going to try doing this exact thing on my Sun/Mon/Thu workouts for a few weeks, and see how much the time it takes me to go 5 miles goes down.

On Wed/Sat I will focus on keeping my HR in the 150's, focusing on the low to mid 150's, and I will not pay attention to my time, just put in the mileage on Hal's schedule.

The Columbia Gorge Marathon is 9 weeks from today, still a bit of time to get my HR on track, will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

I think that you've got this - if you've hit the ten mile mark it should be downhill from there. Of course, I've never run one of those, but once you reach that level of conditioning, I'd bet that the rest gets easier.

Ran 15 miles today. Wasn't overly difficult since I kept my HR in the 150's, but it took for freakin' ever: 2:47:43

Nice job! You must have had a seriously low heart rate though since that's an 11 minute mile, although you'll definitely improve your efficiency and speed the more you train. The long runs are where you'll start seeing the payoff of all those fast 10Ks you've been doing for the past few months.

Switching from elliptical to the track is the best thing you can do for yourself at this point. Fast intervals on the track (400m repeats, 800m repeats, etc.) will really start to whip your heart into shape, especially if you can work your way up to your VO2 max for even a short period of time.

Anyway, I'm off to run some trails, looks like a thunderstorm headed my way so it should be an interesting morning.

2WL, my HR wasn't low at all, it was in the mid to upper 150s most of the time, right at the top end of my aerobic zone, roughly 80% of my maximum HR. This shows I'm not in very good shape, but I will keep at it and improve!

I don't know what my VO2 max is... Monday morning I tried to estimate my Max HR. I was supposed to "sprint" the last one to two minutes of a 5K and add 5. I only "sprinted" the last 30 seconds, but got my HR up to 193, so figure my Max HR is right around 200. My HR was in the low 180s for several minutes, that must have surpassed my VO2 max, though I'm not really sure how that helps me get in better shape...

Sept. 2nd: 3 miles in 24:38 (8:13/mile)
Splits: 8:06, 8:14, 8:19

Sept. 4th: 8 miles in 1:19:07 (9:54/mile)
Splits: 9:58, 10:01, 10:09, 10:29 (H2O), 10:19 (H2O), 10:00, 9:25, 8:46

Some good splits on the 3 mile run make me think you could run run faster on the longer runs, must be getting fitter :-)

Your VO2 max, in a nutshell, is your maximum aerobic capacity. I don't know its relationship to heartrate, but I'm sure they're correlated. Your 8 mile run had some nice negative splits, so you're definitely making some progress. Good work.

Yeah, it'd be nice to know at what heart rate I start creeping into anaerobic, so I could merely stay below that threshold... What good is knowing my VO2 max if I don't know how to stay below that max?

This is sort of the problem I'm facing, with my run today, and with my long runs in general. Today I intended to keep my HR in the upper 150s, or even creep into the lower 160s, but near the end of mile four, after going slower and slower each mile with my HR roughly the same, I decided I needed a water break/walk, which lasted into the start of my fifth mile a bit. So, there I was, wanting to average a 10 minute mile for the run, while also wanting to keep my HR in the low 160s at the most, but those two things are mutually exclusive at this point in time. So, I took my HR monitor watch off, put it in my pocket, and attempted to slowly make up time on that 10:00/mile pace I was shooting for. Mile 5 and mile 6 I didn't make any progress, so I focused on picking my pace up a bit on mile 7 (not thinking I had enough in the tank to make it all up in mile 8), and then I just finished the last mile as hard as I could, even "sprinting" the last straight length of track and taking my HR to 192...

The same sort of thing happened with my 15 mile run. The first 12 miles I kept my HR at 160 max, and my pace got slower and slower. Figured I'd try to run the last 3 miles hard, and mile 13 I ran in 10 minutes, but that killed my, I was way anaerobic and had to walk half a lap to catch my breath and go back to tortoise pace to finish.

I've read you can exercise anaerobic about an hour, and that's pretty true for me. I can run a 10K in 55 minutes or so, and most of the time I am anaerobic. Nearly my entire 3 mile runs I am anaerobic. BUT, when I go long distances, I can't "cheat" my body by going anaerobic, I break down... This Saturday I have a 16 mile run on the schedule and my goal is to do it under 3 hours. I plan to do the first 14 or 15 miles with my HR at or very near 160, and then see if I can finish strong...

Lots of learning going on here, about running and about my body, but I am curious about feedback from the running veterans around. I want to will myself to better times and longer distances, but it seems that it's all about how fit my heart is, and it just takes a lot of time pounding the pavement/track to improve...

Marathon training will never really approach VO2 max anyway so I wouldn't really worry about it. I would focus more on your lactate threshold, which is the level at which your muscles begin to produce lactic acid. This level can be pushed further with more speed and tempo work, which gives you greater endurance if you can delay the buildup of lactic acid.

The great thing about training for your first marathon is really learning about what you're capable of doing and realizing that you can push your limitations. I'm a firm believer that there is no better teacher than yourself, since only you know what you are capable of doing. Of course, having some direction helps, but when it comes down to it, only you know what's best for yourself.

You've got eight weeks left, minus two for a taper, so six long runs left. I'd recommend taking a week at some point and cutting back your training, probably after your first 20 miler, to give some time to recover and reenergize for the final push.

Marx, if you are "into" the science behind training I would recommend a few reads you would enjoy. They all do a great job of explaining the different systems that need to be trained for running and the approach to how to improve each system.

Daniels Running Formula by Coach Jack Daniels
Advanced Marathoning by Scott Douglas & Pete Pfizingner
Run Faster - how to be your own coach by Brad Hudson

They are each about 18-20$ and include training schedules (you should stick to Hal's schedule but maybe for future races, b/c my bet is you'll be hooked!)

I would say the most comprehensive science wise is Daniels - but it is also the most advanced training wise (I don't use it), I've used Pfitz and Hudson's training plans before. But I am constantly going back and flipping through these books to learn/re-learn things.

It sounds really boring and unscientific but your body usually sends out a few signals as to how things are going and you will ignore those signals at your peril.
No amount of stats can tell you that you've picked up a stone in your shoe, or you didn't stretch your right hamstring enough in the warm up. or your left achilles is a bit tight, or you're too warm or too cold, or you didn't take on enough water, or that the road camber is making you run funny, or you didn't put enough vaseline or your nipples, between your thighs or on the balls of your feet. So much about running is non-technical, I think if you get all of these things right you are mentally set to do your best and save a leg break or a heart attack your body should see you through.
Even if you tried to run too fast your body will soon tell you cannot keep that up for an extended period of time because you'll get tired and out of breath.
In the end you'll judge the quality of a run on how well and quickly you recover from it, not necessarily how long it took. Also when you have your optimum stride your body will be at its most efficient, max distance for least energy.
You will also get to know what is roughly 8.30 pace and what is 9.30 pace. I think that whatever pace you run at if you feel good within yourself you can step it up a bit near the end and if you finish with something in the tank you can start off a bit faster next time. All those subtle tweaks that take place between mind and body when using physical exertion should always be a better guide than the pure numbers. alone IMHO.

I got Jack'd up for this morning's 16 mile run!!

(I actually had a bit of a snafu with RunKeeper, so in the end I only ran 15.97 miles, but I'm rounding up to 16 miles for this post.)

Last night I bought (Jack) Daniels' Running Formula, thanks for the advice Gen. Lee! I skimmed through most of the book, but since I've been so focused on my HR of late, one thing I focused on was Jack's thoughts on HR. According to Coach Daniels, an Easy run involves a HR of 65-79% of your HRmax. The next level up is called Marathon race pace, which involves a HR of 80-90% of your HRmax. That was great news to me, in and of itself, but what was the most "freeing" when it comes to my obsession with keeping my HR down, was seeing that the percent of VO2 max of those two zones was pretty similar to the percent of HRmax. I thus made the conclusion that running at a HR of 90% of my HRmax was not actually anaerobic. This may all sound boring and stupid, but I was mentally hung up on that issue, and to "know" that I could take my HR up to 180 without denying my body the oxygen it needs, was/is, again, very freeing...

Anyway, as I said in my last post, I started today's run hoping to finish it in under 3 hours. I planned to start out by keeping my HR in the 150s for as long as I could, like I did for last week's 15 mile run, but I also wanted to be open to merely listening to my body and see how well I could perform based on how I felt (thanks for emphasizing that again recently 2WL and Nigee). Long story short, I did today's 15.97 mile run nearly 10 minutes faster than last week's 15.0 mile run, going from an 11:11 mile pace to a 9:54 mile pace:

Sept. 7th: 15.97 miles in 2:37:55 (9:53/mile)

Splits: 9:38, 9:33, 9:49, 9:51 (H2O), 9:42, 9:38, 10:24, 10:44 (H2O), 9:56, 10:08,10:26 (H2O), 10:18, 9:46, 10:09 (H2O), 8:52, 9:18

So, I ended up doing today's 16 mile run at a faster pace than last Wednesday's 8 mile run. I understand that I'm not actually running fast, compared to others, but relative to what I've done to date on long runs, I am pretty excited about my improvement today! :-)

I hit the 13.1 mile mark at 2:10:49, which put me at a pace of 9:59 for a half marathon. After that, I took my last water break, and attempted to finish strong. Looks like I pushed hard a little too quickly, since my mile 16 pace was slower than my mile 15 pace, but I was still surprised how quickly I got those last two miles done, all things considered.

Finally, I signed up for a 10K a week from tomorrow, and I'm seriously considering signing up for a Half Marathon one week after that. The 10K is supposedly "super fast" since it's all downhill, so that sounded pretty fun. I have a 12 mile run the day before it, but oh well. The Half Marathon is called the High Alpine Half since it starts at Mt. Bachelor's parking lot (this is our local skiing mountain). I live at ~3700 feet above sea level, and Mt. Bachelor's parking lot is probably at least 7000 feet above sea level. My marathon is along the Columbia Gorge, and even with an elevation climb of 500-600 feet, I still don't think I'll max out at 1000 feet above sea level during the marathon, so a high elevation half marathon seems like a good idea.