That's not true, if everyone choose to pay it would still be a free site, and we'd still have the choice to stop paying at any point - or people who found the site randomly online would be able to join for no fee...

I'm sorry but I disagree, that logic is flawed. But I'm not going to argue the point, it is simply my opinion and you are entitled to think otherwise.

If everyone makes the choice it is still choice. I don't see my flaw in the logic.

And yes you're entitled to disagree - i'm not sure i see your logic though.

Hmm, if everyone feels like that have to donate then it's not a choice.... i can concede that point.

*the flaw in my logic*

Jwd, Would you be less of an ass if this thread had a neutered, non-denominational, souless, " by the way, there is a donation button in the help page. "
As it's message?
As many have said, the point is to tell people that they can donate. I personally didn't know that you could until this thread surfaced, so it works.
So does it boil down to the fact that you don't like being " sold a catchy line " as each of us use our creative freedoms to try to promote others to donate as well?

If so, then do what everyone does when the commercial that you hate comes up. Change the channel.
Personally I don't think anyone really cares why you think you shouldn't donate, philosophically, metaphorically, semantically or otherwise. :)
Let the thread do what it's supposed to, which is to inform those who may want to donate to do so. Just because kestas doesn't want to be flamboyant with a donation button doesn't mean that we who appreciate his work can't be.

Jmg, Let me be clear, I respect your opinion to do what you wish, but recognize that if you "win" this discussion, it will be a net-net negative effect for this site, so for the sake of web dip, do the right thing! ;)

@orathaic "everyone" by definition includes new users. But yes I agree with you, if it's no longer a choice, i.e. everyone has to pay, then it is no longer free.

@digitsu I'm not here to argue, I respect your position on the matter. But lets remember Tim Berners-Lee gave the internet to the world for nothing!

The internet is not meant to be pay-as-you go.

I respect that bills have to be paid and big-up to all those who have donated. But I just don't want any users to feel obliged to donate because unless the site is under the threat of closure I think users should be able to enjoy the site for free.

Again, for the record, this is purely my opinion.

reminds me of: "But as people we have a choice, to end the void with all its force, so don't forget or don't pretend, it's all the same now in the end" -- Manic Street Preachers

Tim Berners-Lee gave us the internet, and now 20 years later CERN is getting a patent office to help it protect it's intellectual property because some people think they should make some money from their work...
( http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn19407-innovation-cern-collides-with-a-patent-reality.html )

But aside from that - this game is a service, and we pay for services all the time. I look at the arguement that "it should be free" and think "yeah, in principle, but in reality people have to eat".

right so where do we send the food to?

kestas has a paypal account setup for the transfer of AUS dollar 'Food tokens' - like d'oh... :p

I see :) ok then, provided it's spent on food I agree to contribute...

@jwd - Epic Fail. Berners-Lee is responsible for the web as we know it, but not for the internet. He is responsible for HTTP and HTML, not for IP addresses, DNS servers or the TCP/IP prototcol HTTP runs under. The internet got it's start in 1971 when the first tests of the DoD's ARPANET connected 15 computers together and became a public reality in 1973 when University College of London (England) and Royal Radar Establishment (Norway) were connected and the concepts behind Ethernet, Gateways and FTP were laid out.

HTTP is one small part of the internet. POP3/SMTP (email), FTP (file tranfers), USENET (news servers), and even Gopher space (the capabilities are still there) have been around much longer. And the most used of all the protocols are POP3 and SMTP for email, followed by the various collective protocols for instant messaging. HTTP for the Web is third. So again I say Epic Fail. Go back and study the history of the computer network again, because you obviously failed it the first time around.

@orathaic - the reason CERN is involved is they were working (well one of their people) with TimBL and Robert Cailliau in the physical creation of the first HTTP connection across the already established Internet in 1990.

Don't you people read up and know your computer networking history?

And I should point out that TimBL was a CERN employee in 1993 when they (he and CERN) made the web a reality.

@Draug - "Don't you people read up and know your computer networking history? "
No

I meant those who were presenting their view of the history of the internet and who invented it. We all know it was Al Gore after all. After all, he invented blue jeans, too. :-)

@Draug, meaning the history of the world wide web.

Which to many people is the only part of the internet they know about.

I mean email, sure but they use http to access their hotmail accounts... They don't know that hotmail uses SMTP/POP3 as it's protocol.

And the point was Tim put his http into the public domain for free - which IS just as valid in this context whether the internet was developed by the american militrary 22 years earlier or not.

You're being pedantic.... you're right, but it is largely irrelivant to the discussion.

Meh, it's charitable, in any case?

Listen, I'm sorry for being a prick about this, but you fellows with all your sophisticated language and whatnot should really know the difference between "it's" and "its." The former means "It is", the latter is used to form the possessive.

No, Synalon, it isn't charitable. Charity is giving to those in need expecting nothing in return. Kestas isn't homeless or hungry or running an organization to feed and clothe the homneless and hungry. And we give to him expecting something in return: the continued operation of this site. So while we are donating, it isn't charity at all.

Man, this thread is full of more bull shit than a herd of cattle.

RE Mapleleaf: Not even touching that.

RE jwd: You can cite TimBL, Al Gore, cmdrtaco, or whoever you believe to be the Internet-Incarnate all you want. Saying the Internet is free does not foot the bill for this server. Furthermore, even if every single person decided to donate, this would still be a free site, as the donation was not required.

RE Julian: Shut the fuck up. This is an Internet forum with no editing feature. You've contributed absolutely nothing to this discussion. I'd also like to point out that this is a global community and to expect everyone to have a perfect grasp of the English language is simply ignorant. Finally, Synalon used "it's" correctly, so who were you even talking about?

Oh, sorry: About whom were you talking?

@Julian - or may I call you Bean? Have you met any of the other players from the Enderverse on here? Perhaps peterwiggin?

So now we've got a peterwiggin and a Julian Delphiki. We should try and get all the Enderverse people together in one game . . . and now I'm really off topic.

"They don't know that hotmail uses SMTP/POP3 as it's protocol."

"The internet got it's start in 1971"

Listen, I've got no problem with speakin' colloquially. I understand this is the Internet. It just struck me as odd that two rather articulate people woud make the same mistake. I suppose I was a bit condescending about it, and for that I apologize.
@Draugnar- Bean is fine, too. I'm afraid I've yet to speak with any of them-perhaps some day soon. It's nice to know there are some Orson Scott Card fans in this community.

And look at that, I said "woud." Lovely.

If everyone is enjoying this discussion that's fine, but no-one has donated during it so although I appreciate the thought please don't feel we need to continue this bitter argument for my sake

Hi Pete.