Crazy Anglican, can I direct you to my previous post

There is always the "God's mind is higher than our mind" argument.

To which I say, ok fine. That may be true, but for a human to try to invoke is meaningless. Only God can invoke that argument, if he so chose.

My opinion:

It does not matter. At all. The possiblities:
- He does not exist. I lose nothing by not believing in him.
- He exists and is cool enough to not demand that I mindlessly believe in him, and is fine with me living my life according to my morals. I lose nothing by not believing in him.
- He exists and demands that I mindlessly believe in him. I don't see why I would want to hang out with an asshole for eternity; at least Hell would have more interesting people.

Since it does not matter whether he exists or not, there is no point in thinking about it.

It depends on what you think "god" is. Is he a thinking being that watches over us? For me, no. Is it the word you give to represent the energy of the Universe? Yes. I agree that it exists. The interpretation is important.

Hi Ghostmaker,

Sorry I wasn't ignoring you. I was on my way out to Church this morning. As to why I have faith in the absence of evidence? Isn't that the only kind of faith there is? Anything else would more rightly be deemed confidence, I believe.

Faith in God is a very beneficial thing. As I stated earlier, there is empirical data to suggest that faith in any god is helpful to the believer. Oddly enough the stricter the faith the better in lots of cases, as the strict observance of many religions tends to steer people away from certain health risks and risky behavior (you name it smoking, caffeine, promiscuity, alcohol- it all depends on the religion and the adherent). Still even on a basic, entirely supportable with fact, empirical level adherence to a religion is a pretty good thing.

Taking this a step further, Christianity is a worldview that has at it’s heart some very good things to say to the world. Unfortunately, they tend to get drowned out by people who think they know what it’s all about even though the closest they’ve gotten to scripture is to look up a website designed to point out that there were two Creation stories, et, al. That argument completely misses the point. Love your neighbor to the point that you will give up even your life to save him. That’s hardly “Don’t be a dick” as I’ve heard it summarized lately. At the heart of the religion is a figure that was not only preaching this but lived it himself, an entirely historically verifiable person. One of the emperor’s (Diocletian I believe, but I’m probably wrong on that count) found his nephew and cleared him of any wrongdoing in the Christian Conspiracy. While Roman emperors did at times give Senate Seats to horses, they usually didn’t dole out pardons to myths. So if one were to say that Jesus did not exist, or that he was not who he claimed to be. They are doing so in spite of the evidence, not because of it.

The arguments that I have heard against Christianity fall into a few largely absurd categories (Yes I know I don’t have time to cover them all):

1) Christians have done some terrible things over the centuries Hmmm? So, lots of individuals have done terrible things for a variety of reasons, What does that have to do with the veracity of Christ’s message? This is outright propaganda, because these people rarely want to talk about humans being human and subject to this type of thing. More dangerously, the assumption is there that if we were to “do away” with some particular groups access to power, then we’d all be much “safer”.

2) You can’t prove that God exists. We’ve gone over this ad-nauseum. There is no evidence either way. The only thing that atheism tries to assert is that people should start from the position that God does not exist and demand proof (of something for which there is little if any empirical proof). That's a tricky little rhetorical joust , but most people don’t start there, nor are they required to. It’s be like a Christian telling a Muslim “Okay first you have to accept that Christ is the Son of God and demand proof that he is not”. Muslims and atheists alike would cry foul and rightly so. Even if you claim a neutral stance, (ignoring the paradigm that most people are theists). Telling people that they should think like an atheist about their religions will likely get you nowhere. If you embrace that paradigm then you’re just another worldview having to support itself like all the others.

3) God does some really terrible things. I like this one. It amounts to an outright character smear on the Almighty. Don’t go ‘round telling people that God shouldn’t care about your beliefs if you are slandering him. Here we have to remember that you do not have to have any particular knowledge of scripture to tell people how much you know. As long as you keep up invective after invective and don’t let anyone pin you down on one story you’re safe. I’ve pinned a few down over the years. It usually goes something like this:

“God had no right to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, all they were doing was having sex”

“Really? So you advocate gang rape as a social norm?”

“Huh? No!”

“Have you read the story? They clearly demand that Lot send his guests out ‘So that WE may know him (in the Biblical sense) as is our custom’ That doesn’t sound very nice”

“Well okay the adults had it coming, but what about the children?”

“What Children? There are no children mentioned in the story at all, and they are specifically mentioned in other towns and other stories. Remember these are towns where a grown man was a risk walking down the street”

“Well, um, There are lots of others stories where God is mean I could go on and on”

“Yes, I’m sure, Well Good day to ya’”

Gotta go, but basically, Christianity is a very beneficial way of seeing the world and of living. As far as atheism goes, I’ve seen no argument that leads me to believe that it (in and of itself) has anything to offer me or the world in general. The arguments that I’ve seen among atheists are invariably anti-Christian, not pro-atheism. Pro Science? Sure, but Christians can be scientists as well. Just ask Francis Collins about Biologos.

Christianity is a complete load of bullshit. I'm sorry for you if you really believe in this myth. I read your arguments against the mythical jesus but I have a new one for you. One that can't be disputed. All of your dead god's holidays were put on top of the real holidays. Do you ever wonder why you god's events coincide with natural events? You should. Maybe then you wouldn't be so naive.

Jesus is a tool for the weak. Get on your knees and worship a dead jew if you want. I'll follow reality. I am a son of nature and I will always be so. I'm not special but I am. Fuck anyone who tries to control me with their superstitions.

They coincide with ancient Pagan traditions because people were less resistant to converting if their times for holiday weren't dramatically changed. Basically, if you celebrated Saturnalia (which occurs on the winter solstice) then you would probably be less resistant to converting over if the holidays weren't too far away to what your used too.

Guys like C-K:

People can believe what they want to believe. You can't force anything onto them. (that's what she said!!! Sorry, middle schooler here.) Anyways, there is no right or wrong to religion. People who are really dedicated to Christianity could be offended by your comment, as you are making fun of their religion. I believe in god, but I am not "hardcore" about it so I am not THAT taken aback by your comment, but avoid saying bad stuff about somebody else's religion. You may not believe in it, but that doesn't mean other people can't.

LOLZ!!! NICE "THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID" JAZZGUY!!!!! (I'm a middle schooler, also!)

anyways, I agree with you jazzguy, everybody can believe what they want to believe, and nobody can change that.

Of course beliefs can be changed by people; that's how they got there in the first place.

Well that is a little different. In spite of the historic evidence supporting Jesus's existence, he's a myth because some Christian holidays were deliberately placed on top of older ones. It's pretty much widely known that this was because the early Church leadership was more interested in gaining converts than eradicating cultures. It was common to supplant an earlier holiday with a Christian one and to reinterpret the traditions in a Christian light. No big revelation there, sorry. How was that supposed to make Jesus a myth exactly? Even if it was something I didn't already know it wouldn't do anything of the sort.

Jesus, as a mythical figure, is just that, a myth. Compare him to the Buddha and I think you will find how much of the superstition was stolen from the East. It's bullshit, and it's an abomination to reason to have a world where such thoughts are trying to push into politics/already have. Atheists don't worry about heaven or hell, they don't worry about death and they live life to the fullest because they understand it's the only one they will get. they learn to appreciate more. i used to believe in god, and i now find myself much happier that i don't.

Good for you. So in spite of empirical evidence to the contrary (fewer instances of depression, quicker recovery from illness injury on average, etc) you're convinced that atheists live fuller more carefree lives? What actual evidence backs this up other than your anecdote. I can assure you that I'm happier since becoming believer. Doesn't one anecdote cancel another?

Again certain people should be denied access to power because they are different than you?

That's what she said!! LOLZ!!!

THat seems to be your abomination to reason argument.

That's what she said!!!

No, he doesn't - why? Because he/she is just a figment of human imagination. That's all, folks - over & out.

Here is a question i have about christianity, there may be an answer im no expert, so if you have one then let me know. Why didnt all the people that came before the time of jesus know about the existance of the christian god?

I'm going to assume one person said "Yes, God is real" and then a bunch of idiots said "YOU MEAN ALL GODS ARE REAL?!" because webdip forum posters have a huge problem confusing quantifiers.

Sigh.

To stir up the chickenhouse a bit:


Ad 2: Christianity is based upon an historical event: the ressurection of Jesus Christ. This is an absurd thing because we are used to the fact that when people die they do not return or live again. Still, our entire belief is built upon this fact. And we have proof! Paul writes to the Corinthians that there are 500 witnesses who have seen Jesus alive after His crucifixion and death. And most of them were still alive when he wrote that letter. In that time a letter from Corinth to Jeruzalem would take eight days. The Corinthians would have had all the time in the world to investigate for themselves to see if the Ressurection was true.

Throughout the ages no one has been able to disprove the Ressurection. There have been assumptions and myths but no one ever succeeded in proving Jesus did not raise from the dead. No body found, no archeological evidence.

This would be my challenge, fellow nerds of the webdip community. Prove to me that Jesus was not raised. Prove to me Christianity is based on myth instead of fact. The apostle Paul says it himself: when Jesus has not risen our hope is based on nothing and we may as well not believe.

If you present me convincing evidence of Jesus death, I will become an agnostic just like you, groping to find my way in an incredible universe in which I am very tiny and short-lived.


Now stop reli-bashing and get to work.

Atheist view: I have yet to see any convincing evidence for the existance of God (the one True God), just like have not been convinced of the existance of aliens, ghosts, greeco-roman gods, Russell's teapot, the invisible pink Unicorn, the Giant spagetti monster, or other fabulous creations of human imaginaiton.

Christian Theist responds: I trust the evidence presenting in the bible (insert other source of revelation here for different religions)

Deist Criticises: Yes but your concept of a benevolant God which intervenes in our daily lives is betrayed by the fact that we have 'natural' explainations for all observed repeatable expierence. I posit that God must exist, and it is a conclusion which one can come to via logic and observation, however this God does not interfere with the goings on in his Universe.

Pantheist: You're all wrong and right. The Universe exists and I identify it with the concept of God, many solid ideas about the concept of God are based on various potentiall flawed interpretations of the bible (and other 'religous' texts) Those texts probably have social value - are useful for creating the heaven on earth/utopia which we deserve - and thus can be seen as inspired by the Good in the Universe (the word Good is derived from the same source of the word God) However no human has ever fully grasped/grooked the Universe/God, and meanings (like Good/Evil) are simply something we apply to help us lead successful/happy lives.

@ Ursa: "If you present me convincing evidence of Jesus death, I will become an agnostic just like you, groping to find my way in an incredible universe in which I am very tiny and short-lived." - nicely pushing the burden of proof to the other side; however you are assuming that '500 people' saw jesus after his ressurection - and this is more likely to be true than 500 people were convinced they saw jesus after his death.

Throughout the ages no one has been able to disprove the Deception. There have been assumptions and myths but no one ever succeeded in proving Jesus did raise from the dead.

Many other bodies are not found, many pieces of archeological evidence suggest a man named Jesus of Nazereth did exist around 0-33 CE; there is no record of the body of the two teives who supposedly died beside Jesus; If you can find their bodies then I will consider your arguement sligthly more substantial.