In order to really be an intellectual you have to challenge the most well-established beliefs, zaza. You are failing to question your faith, which I interpret as ignorance. This is the blindness I was referring to and which you clearly displayed in your response.

your heart is nothing, your mind is everything, learn to be independent of established thoughts (existentialism).

your heart is nothing, your mind is everything, learn to be independent of established thoughts (existentialism).

Do you not know that the metaphor of heart is the same thing as mind? I am independent of established thoughts. I always look to God for wisdom. I analyze what the Bible says. I decide it is correct. It is correct with my morals. I believe in free choice. If someone chooses to die then they can. I just don't agree with it. I will always be opposed to it.

Forgive me for having a different opinion. I'm not trying to force it down your throats though.

I don't know, the Bible quoting kind of made it seem as if you are. And I'm pretty sure religion counts as established thought. There is no God. You look to a book, and that's fine, I just don't see where all your trust comes from. And don't imply that I am trying to force feed atheism to you, I'm just combating your arguments with fervor.

Hm...Yes, thank you. I don't like making enemies in opinion threads. I usually do. I don't know why I do. I just do.

I still renege upon my entitled opinion and encourage others to believe the same.

Are you babtist ZaZa?
I ask because I live with a baptist, who happens to be the sperm donor and the reason I am here today. I say sperm donor and not father, because since he has become a baptist and a "born again christian", he no longer bears any resemblance to the person who raised me when I was very young. This baptist, who I can no longer talk to for more than a few minutes without having to leave the room lest I kill him with my bare hands, could be your twin. Your faith is admirable, and your devotion to god is impressive, but where does it come from? Did you really just hear it one day and decide that it was how you were supposed to live? What is the point of spending your life praising god? Why does god need to be praised constantly? Why are you so assured that your interpretation of the bible is correct?

ZaZa, I accept you have a right to your opinion, but no, I don't respect an opinion that a) presumes to know God's intentions and b) that is derived from a work of fictionalized historical record, and that I believe was written for the people of that time and used since that time as a patriarchal method of social control and worse yet, that has become the idol of worship. Putting the Bible before God breaks the first commandment.

Please do not link my acceptance of a person's right to choose their opinion (though often these choices are fear based) with respect or belief in entitlement of all opinions.

I cannot imagine a God who obviously gave us free will, who created a world in which life could realize itself that doesn't see the entire picture and therefore knows more than we have yet to realize for ourselves. I can't imagine a God, that would not rejoice in one or many's courageous choice to end suffering, be it uniquely physical or collective effort for a social change which out laws one groups infliction of suffering onto another.

No, I don't deny mistakes are a feature of life, humans being the main contributor of them.

If I choose to end my life based on my hard won understanding that my end is immanent (trust me, this is not an easy thing to realize) and I will be in a living hell of physical torture for the remainder of my days, then I don't think a doctor assisting me in my chosen end is likely to make a mistake. Unless, of course, the doctor is a total fuck up. I'd hope I would choose one who knows what he's doing.

If you fear making this decision, then don't. You don't have to. Your not terminally ill. By the way, this decision should probably not be contemplated until it is a real choice -- cuz we cannot have all the information until we are in that situation and it's kind of like spending your millions before you've won the lottery...

Thuscy.... what are you thinking? You have just denied !!! the existence terminal illness???? Poof, they are gone? Or are you saying that the terminally ill only die of their disease because they do not believe in miracles? What?

You have just denied the reality millions of human beings (a cruel act, denial of others is) who have, or have died of, pancreatic cancer (the most painful of cancers, but not the only lethal one), Lou Gehrig's disease (ALS), Alzheimer, Kidney disease, Diffuse Cutaneous Scleroderma , to name a few of the horrific ways bodies shut down. All of which are, in either weeks or years, terminal diseases, as is life but by no means in the same way!

How interesting that our human fears will cause us to deny reality in the hope of a miracle.

Miracles are a fine belief, worthy even, because you never know what the body will survive. Seeing them when they happen is one of the best kinds of life moments, surviving because of one is a gift to behold. What the body will survive, when it can and even when permanent damage results is, if not miraculous truly wondrous.( See, I am giving you some credence to your idea of miracles, I do admit they happen.)

For every miracle there is also the mystery of the unknown-- which may or may not bring us to a miraculous moment. The unknown is in life and in death and not every death is literal, but also metaphorical -- in our life decisions every new decision that forces us to let go of a long held limiting belief (most of which lead to some kind of suffering) in light of more information is a step into the unknown and this to me is the most observable miracle.

This is a little death, like moving out of our parents home, like ending a relationship, and it is risk that is taken to be born into a new way of being. That most fear this letting go of the old is part of human nature, out greatest fear is loss. It's why we stay in relationships that limit our free will, it's why we have difficulty choosing to move, literally and metaphorically, into unknown territory. We do everything to guard against loss (of belief as much as life) to the point we might just believe anything so that we can feel safe. This is why some one will stay in an abusive relationship and hope for the miracle that their abuser will change instead of choosing to loose the fantasy of a miraculous change. In the mean time a life is risked because then next punch might just be fatal.

You equate the suffering of life with the suffering of a terminal physical illness . These are not the same things. One has the likelihood for change, the other not so much -- there is no cure or efficient treatment that halts the progress of wasting and multi-system shut down of, for example, ALS. The difference is our power to act on our life choices. We can choose to end the sufferings of life; we can leave the abusive relationship, get an education, stop doing drugs, all miracles in my opinion. No amount of choice is going to prevent the person who is suffering their body's shutdown from dying from ALS.

In terminal illness, we can choose to live despite our suffering, but our choice will not end that suffering and to exist in this level of not just immense pain but the psychological awareness that our bodies are unable to move us to the actions of living like eating-- immense pain from any physical trauma kills the appetite as the energy needed to process our nutrients is needed to mediate the pain --and in ALS, the digestive system is effected so the human being suffering this slow death is unable to fuel up with food. If ss/he chooses, s/he will be very aware of their slow starvation, so as they loose the ability feed themselves, their inability to wipe their own asses, type on a computer, talk, and as their breath becomes more and more restricted they can "live" while they feel themselves slowly starve, suffocate and die. Do you suggest that this is a miracle? If you think that this is ok, what is to stop you from burying someone alive and causing the same suffering?

Thucy, you write:
" What I'm saying is, it is all a spectrum. Once you have entered the spectrum, you cannot leave. Once you have said it is ok to hasten death, you have asked the question, since all death is inevitable, why not hasten all death?"

Agreed, and we enter the spectrum the minute we are born and from that moment, we enter what is truly unknown: our own life. The rest of your argument is circular, and ignores many points in between, the fact of the torture of a terminal illness for one... ( But I like that your playing with the spectrum idea, keep going... :)

For me, the purpose of life is to live until circumstances prevent me from doing so. And I care about life, mine and others, very much, which is probably why I'm still alive -- by the way, I have lived 4 miracles (at least), while doing so I also saw many die . I will never consider their deaths a failure of choice or belief, because their bodies could no longer sustain life. And because I fought hard to live, while watching others die, I will never assume to choose for another whether or not they should live in their unique suffering and I will always support what ever one decides for themselves in terms of their own life and death.

Each of us lives a life that is uniquely ours which hopefully is shared with and by many others. Each life has free will, to the extent that we are allowed by others and take responsibility of (knowing that my free will can effect yours). It seems to me, both the context of our birth and the customs will are born to effect our choices including whether we can/will make them and the dance between the external and internal will shape each human being's experiences for better or worse.

When we find we have only one choice, to exist in terminal suffering or to die sooner, key word is "sooner", the most compassionate and life affirming is to be allowed our right to respond to that based on our intimate understanding of ourselves and life as we have come to experience it.

Yours will be different than mine, but we can never presume to know which is the best choice for every human being. We cannot decide for other's what suffering and pain they should endure, that would make us the instruments of their torture.

Thucy, you do impress me.

Thanks, your commitment is impressive too.

Though I must say, you should join some games! Lol the forum is only half the fun.

Anyway.

The only time I would possibly consider allowing assisted suicide would under these circumstances:

1) The person had written something in a document saying that there was at least a possibility they would consider assisted suicide. Basically, they have to say they might do it while they're still healthy and "sober" if you will.

2) Two to three physicians who are randomly selected like in jury duty have to corroborate that the illness is indeed terminal with a 0% chance of survival. (Randomly selected so that its not like they're all from the same hospital or something.)

3. The person has to agree that this is what he or she wants, obviously, and has to be read some kind of statement which lets them know what it is they're about to do. Nothing harsh, but something like,
"You knowingly will end your own life, and do not expect the life you live right now to be worth living any longer..."
Something a bit like that I guess, almost like an oath.

4. There has to be incredibly, very very very highly researched ideas that whatever method they will use to kill the person, it is totally and fully painless (I say this because there was evidence after the fact on many executions that the lethal injection they received was in fact not painless as previously thought.)

5. The country must have universal health care. The person's decisions may NOT be because of financial reasons. Even still, a very civic-minded person might not want to waste tax dollars. As such, the country should be either really rich, or have their assisted suicide program funded by rich countries (which is also unsettling since it could be used for better things like improving the lives of those who are not terminally ill, but that's another topic.) In the oath I mentioned there should be something where they swear that they are not seeking death on the grounds of no longer being an emotional burden on their families or a financial burden on society.



So... yeah. You would need all of that. And even then it would be kind of scary. On top of it all I'd have to say you'd need an incredibly well-scrutinized agency just for looking after these things and preventing abuses, and you'd need very harsh punishment for abusers.

Um would you be in pre-law by any chance?

Well as long as you see there can be reasons for assisted suicide, measure to make help define the choice are not so bad.

As for playing here, I have to say the written rules for this are horrible, with all the literate and eloquent writing here, you'd think someone would make them clear and easy to follow.

I was invited to play by a friend, whose motives I question, as he left both me and another in the dark. I had to hound him for explanation and then I realized I don't really like war games.

I kick ass in cards though.

eghads.. .forgot to proof..

Well as long as you see there can be reasons for assisted suicide, measures to help define the choice are not so bad.

I don't respect an opinion that a) presumes to know God's intentions and b) that is derived from a work of fictionalized historical record, and that I believe was written for the people of that time and used since that time as a patriarchal method of social control and worse yet, that has become the idol of worship. Putting the Bible before God breaks the first commandment.

a) He says His intentions in the Bible. Where did you think I got the Bible verses from?

b) No. I put God and the Bible at the same level. The Bible is God-breathed. The Bible is of God. I don't know where you're getting this all from.

vamo-I'm Lutheran. In real life I am known as one of the nicest guys around. I don't think friendship should be based solely on what someone believes in.

Agreed on your point to Vamo but not on your answers to a) and b)

Men wrote the bible, not God. Since this fact is not up for discussion, point a) is only what you wish were true, not what is true.

The bible is God-breathed?? Change that to life is God breathed and I might just agree with you. Anything created after the creation of life to me is made by life. So books are made by human beings, a kind of life, and God started the whole thing (maybe just by banging some stars together).

What bothers me most is your certainty the God wrote the bible, no room for doubt and question to see what wonders those acts reveal? I am open to God whispering in our ear and even throwing down ideas for us to consider, but no.. I don't buy for a second that God exhaled a book.

I bet God doesn't put the bible on it's level, I mean really wouldn't that limit God's omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence? And what do you know, by worshiping one religious text, one religion, and denouncing others (which human beings have done since we got together in community) God's reach is limited -- oh and then human beings fight wars over it.

Oye.

Where I'm getting all what from?

Thucydides, Oregon's Death With Dignity law does consider many of your statements.

Lol no not pre-law.

And the biggest one for is the healthcare thing... without that all of it falls apart.

UHC works pretty well I must say and that's a good point, considering how much financial stress just sucks when your sick and/or dying.

Zaza, who said anything about friendship? I was comparing you to my father, who you would just adore based on that you've said on here so far, and you didnt answer my various questions.
How did these beliefs become so engrained in you?
Do you really feel accomplished by "praising god every day"?
What is the point of praising god all the time?
Do you feel comfortable blindly accepting the bible as truth without even stopping to question it?

I apologize if you do question the bible, but from how you have presented it in here, it seems like you just follow it blindly.

No, it sounds like your father isn't a very nice guy. Ruining his relationship with his son with his religion. Although, the problem could lie with you being ignorant. I can't tell what's going on your life. I'm not friends with every Christian. We're not called to be friends and like everyone. We're called to love (not the same as being friends) and respect everyone for who they are.

He believes that he is doing the work of god though.
So who would you put the blame on when he has destroyed his entire home life in exchange for becoming more in touch with god?

Also, I know what I'm getting into. I doubt. It's part of my human nature. I question God sometimes. Then I'll stop and pray. Read God's word. Everything about God makes sense to me. The rules, the relationship, and the lifestyle. Even if I was wrong I do like the title of being a Christian Lutheran. I am friends with good people and I have a lot of fun being a Christian and thinking God is by my side. I have a lot of joy in my life right now and I accredit my faith to being the whole cause for it. Does that answer your questions vamosrammstein?

If god and christianity is what you cling to for support when you need it and it works for you, fair enough.
Yes, you have answered my questions.

Everyone needs a crutch of some sort in their life, I know I have mine, and if yours is christianity, then thats your crutch.

I wouldn't call it a crutch. But in the perspective of a world-view, yes it is.

Crutch support belief companion guide whatever you want to call it, its something to help you through your life.

Because when you stop to think about it life in pointless and we all need to lie to ourselves to survive (because most of us are afraid of death).

That's an extremely negative way of looking at it:p

In the face of the unknown, a supporting belief is not a bad thing at all. I personally prefer a comfy seat, with at least one for a friend to sit on and keep the hopes that my ideas are not so rigid that I would have to kill or die for them for them to be valid.

My issue with this is when states are formed on religious grounds. Maybe because women and children have historically suffered the brunt of it, but mostly because beliefs can be used so aggressively (in terms of war/jihad), and all because we can't countenance an other's differing views for which there is no absolute certainty.

I've always liked the idea that God allowed for as many faiths, potentially, as there are individuals so that we can have more opportunity to see God's many ways.

I freely admit that I cannot prove that God didn't exhale a book anymore than Za can prove God did. I think, beyond my reasons above, that given the rules of matter, which God has let us figure out for ourselves and because a God who has the ability to create life in such variation probably doesn't need books to express it's being.

What I see in this kind of absolutism (in any religion), is the serpent head of fundamentalism, which is built on every religious view that does not make room for others.

I value Christianity for keeping the lessons of Jesus alive, even if he was not God incarnate he made some humane points; all the other proscriptions are to me more reflective of the cultural context of that time, and reveals the social engineering and rules to guard against other propensities that's effect can be dangerous, robbing individuals the right to choose and to have their relationship with God be as personal as it needs to be, perhaps, more than a mere crutch.

So much religion in this forum! Assisted suicide is merely a result of natural selection. What would happen if all those depressed people stayed alive? They would depress other people, and they would go on a depress yet more people, before we know it everyone would be on prozac and on the sick. The economy and life as we know it would grind to a halt and we would all wallow around in a depressed state waiting to die and infecting others with our depressing thoughts in the meantime. Assisted suicide is natures way of culling the depressed before it takes hold. Having laws against assisted suicide has resulted in people sat at home deciding if they should watch strictly come dancing or the X factor - how depressing is that?