@"The ones that don't generally don't even know about them because the mainstream media never talks about it.
Do you even talk to Americans or are you just assuming they all suck so you can feel good about ripping into them?"

You could assume for a moment that i'm not the mainstream media, but i am sharing these ideas because that media fails too. Does that not seem like a reasonable thing?

@"The idea that Americans should be particularly ashamed of the fourth is absurd" - why? What do you celebrate?

Let me be clear, i am Irish, we have similar 'creation myths' and had a whole year of celebrating the 100th year since the Easter Rising (in which my great grandfather was the highest ranking military casualty), I find nothing worth celebrating in that uprising. Nor am i proud of the 100 years since, and the abuses committed in the name of the State since the English left (80% of) this island to itself.

@CA, i will admit that you have accumulated a great amount of wealth. The fact that you sent men to the moon is pretty impressive, the requirement that you draft in Nazi scientists less so.

I am not taking any absolutist stance here, i am defending my position. It appears more absolutist because most of the comments are direct attacks.

That said, the majority of US foreign policy has been damaging to the countries encountering it. Even when this isn't a military endeavour. The capitalistic exploitation of others is criminal, in my mind. So it is no surprise that i come to a rather different stance than you do.

The people's history is an excellent read. Even if it doesn't change your perspective on the USA which exists today.

That said, i know that most American people are doing their best, they are trying to improve their own lives and those of their families. I just think the ideologies they blindly follow are damaging and oppressive.

Nationalism is the one which tries to convince you that your nation's interests are your interests. That, for example, Edward Snowden's actions, while clearly against the national interest, are also against the interests of the average citizen.

The example of "The Citizens' Commission to Investigate the FBI" who after ~40 years came forward and admitted they had stolen FBI documents - The FBI said of them: "“A number of events during that era, including the burglary, contributed to changes in how the FBI identified and addressed domestic security threats, leading to reform of the FBI’s intelligence policies and practices, including the creation of investigative guidelines by the Department of Justice,”" (see: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/band-of-activists-who-burglarized-fbi-office-in-1971-come-forward/2014/01/07/898d9e0c-77b4-11e3-8963-b4b654bcc9b2_story.html)

They were enemies of the state at the time. But are now closer to being considered heroes. It all depends on who is in power, and what perspective they think they can get away with.

@SantaClausowitz - @"t's also an approach that is WELL known to people who have studied us history on any advanced level."

which i can assure you, is a minority of people both in and outside of the US.

While it may be well known now (that Howard Zinn pioneered it), it was next to unknown in the 50s and 60s when he studied in college, and it is still not a widely understood perspective.

Ora: almost ten years of endlessly moralizing on the subject of the US would almost be impressive, if it weren't so sad.

You should look at Noam Chomsky, he's been doing it far longer than I have :)

Snowden would probably be more of a hero in the minds of people of he had actually gone to jail for the crime and there was an actual trial. The fact he did what he did - and fled to Russia pretty much erases the notion he is a hero whistleblower imo.

I dont find anything he blew the whistle on to be groundbreaking / shocking at all. It was pretty obvious we were spying on ppl post 9/11 and obvious we probably were getting civilians killed in afghanistan/pakistan/iraq.

Im more shocked hollywood was able to churn out a film on him already. Like - is he even really that compelling?

Compare snowden to the witch hunt we went on for the couple who sold our nuclear secrets to russia. We put them to death for arguably much worse - and they didnt even get a fair tribunal. Iirc it was circumstantial that it was them

You're no Chomsky.

@Orathaic: thanks. Glad I did not get all rude in my earlier reply.

@Trip, i never made that claim. It was you who implied it was sad to spend my time this way.

Snowden is a hero

Why? What was so groundbreaking and shocking in what he blew the whistle on? I feel like he couldve done things probably a hundred different ways and accomplished the same goal to promote change from within. The fickle electorate didnt vote for people who wanted to improve on laws on domestic spying. On the contrary theyve gone more and more anti-liberty every year since snowden. Its a miracle we dont all have dog collars on us with gps chips in them by now. Even just look at this voter fraud investigation. The data mining is off the chain at this point.

The United States played a major role in the independence of Mexico in the 1860's. Perhaps the one situation where our relations with Latin America were of genuine alliance, but the United States did aid in preventing European Imperialism.

Preventing European Imperialism sounds like a great idea... did you see how well the US did that in 1898? And the resulting invasion of the Philippines?

About a quarter of a million dead, and not just from fighting, also from being stored in concentration camps, and the spread of disease... There is some reports that President William McKinley decided to invade to 'spread his Christian faith' to the poor unenlightened people of the Philippines - who you might note were mostly Catholics.

That said, i do acknowledge the great work done by the US to replace European Imperialism with their own. It did mean making allies, and creating your own fiefdom from which to dominate the world. But in the process you find that European exploitation was dramatically reduced (unless you count the US as an extension of European exploitation...).

Happy fourth of July everyone! It is a day we can truly be proud of. It's the day we got independence! let's all be super patriotic and celebrate the fourth together!

Ah, yes, a classic. Though you must acknowledge those countries would never have existed without the United States. I'm not going to defend American Imperialism, but particularly with the threat levied against France to back out of Mexico which helped them maintain status as an independent Mexico, you can't ignore the fact that the United States has acted as a line of defense that certain nations would not otherwise receive.

Just read about the Second Mexican Empire for the first time, tbh. The collapse of European domination of central and south america came mostly due to the Napoleonic wars, when Spain itself was conquered, and their colonies split on class/racial lines (wealthy land owners with conflicting interests against indigenous peoples, and working class mulattoes and slaves... ) The US did very little, apart from make Canada in the war of 1812.

France did decide to pursue a 'free trade' policy in Mexico while the US was busy with the civil war, in order to force regime change, and repayment of debts - presumable accumulated in the fight for independence or while under the thumb of European powers... either way, it is probably not legitimate to expect debts accrued by others, or because of European Imperialism, to be paid.

Still if France lent you money so you could fight the Spanish and you fail to pay up... hen it is little surprise that France invaded and attempted to set up an Empire in your pretty Republic.

Recall, France also won the American revolution for you, because freeing the colonies meant less power/influence for the British.

In short, all Imperial powers seems to act in their own interest. Whether that is France taking advantage of the US's civil war, or weakening the British by supporting the American revolutionary war. Whether that is the US supporting Republican Mexico, because all of America is seen as their playground - The Monroe Doctrine - or whether it is their support for the House of Saud, in exchange for oil...

There are no moral questions, just a limited form of self-interest. National interest is a terrible thing to follow. Because it is entirely amoral.

Several powers took the American Civil War as a green light to pursue imperial policies in Latin America, but the only one willing to go to war for it was France. France also would've given aid to the Confederacy, but the Mexican victory at the Battle of Puebla meant the French had to dedicate even more forces to win in Mexico, and they weren't willing to fight after the US had won the Civil War and made it clear we were willing to use force to end the French invasion.

@ ora

You find nothing worth celebrating at all? Your great grandfather's achievements may have fallen below what you believe would have made the struggle worth it, but is there not something to celebrate in terms of the effort, the belief, the sacrifice, the hope? I have no illusions about my ancestors being saints, and some have been proper bastards at times. But all have been human, and all have had their moments, and if not their descendants will celebrate them, then who?

@Octavious, I admire the hope, but i could also say that for the hope of Socialists in Russia during the October revolution. But i'm not going celebrate the privilege of inheriting his wealth, the blood sacrifice for a doomed military action (which did fail).

There are parts of his character that i may find admirable, but i'm not going to glorify anyone.

@TrPrado, interesting bit of history i wasn't familiar with. Thanks.

Mexican history is a resoundingly interesting topic. I'll be taking a course on it (specifically 1800-present) to become more familiar with it.

I imagine there is an interesting mix of race and class division, regional disagreements, international relations (with Spain, the US, other latin american countries and other european countries).

One of things that I love about the forum are the history discussions/arguments. They bring up so many events, analysis and opinions, that it has me going on Wikipedia for hours. However, I with Brain on this one. Let the cousins have a day off and enjoy themselves. Happy Independence Day.

and then tomorrow we can discuss how we can still have celebrations that include burning effigies of people in a modern western society. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewes_Bonfire

If orathaic had his way like all other communist revolutionaries he would have the vanquished hauled in front of a wall and shot. Here in America we had a revolution and take over of power and all we have are character assassinations

Trump would gladly crush anyone he perceives to be an enemy. He's incited violence multiple times at rallies.

http://mashable.com/2016/03/12/trump-rally-incite-violence/#ozzdZKA5hiqy

That violence was minor compared to the violence of trump protestors who instigated and provoked trump supporters