Right, the slowdown happens at lower ranks. Promotions to management don't happen because of maternity leave, hence they get promoted later on average and never get the experience to be a CEO.

@Jeff ... thank you for your input. That's one. There are a few hundred thousand male CEOs you forgot to name. As I said, things are very slowly tilting so that women can become CEOs, and she is one of them. The fact that you can point out one example, and if you used Google, you could find a few more, doesn't prove me wrong at all.

Jeff - Marissa Meyer and Sheryl Sandberg are notable because women at that level are so rare, which in itself backs bo's argument far more than the point you're trying to make.

Reparations is an idea which might have been worthy during Reconstruction, but that time is now long past. Leave it in the dustbin of history.

It is disheartening that the military changed the physical fitness requirements for various roles. If you have what it takes, do it. If there are objective standards, then ambitious women will make those into goals and succeed.

Same goes for "construction" jobs. My girlfriend is an elevator service mechanic, one of 2 or 3 in Northern California, a hotbed of union representation and affirmative action. She worked her way through the iron working trade after learning welding as an artist as part of her bachelors degree.

When she tells me that there are no women around who can actually do elevator construction work because they routinely have hundreds and hundreds of pounds to lift and have a significant background in electronics, I believe her. There are physical limitations for many jobs.

If Brienne of Tarth showed up and was a wizard at circuits, I'm sure she'd get the job if she wanted it. But that type of woman just doesn't exist. The rarest of exception to the rule, if ever.

If you really want to fix things, level the economic playing field and tax the rich appropriately. It works much better to provide incentives to earn money at the lowest income brackets (Earned Income Tax Credit, for example) than it does to provide "free money."

The wealthy may call it "class warfare" but when there are no opportunities for the underprivileged, it turns into the real thing. Police are on the front lines of this tension and the good ones deserve our support, but only when they provide equal protection for all citizens under the law.

"Reparations is an idea which might have been worthy during Reconstruction, but that time is now long past. Leave it in the dustbin of history."

All right, fine, let's forget slavery, just to humor you. Are you against reparations for Jim Crow? Lynchings? Unlawful arrests? Housing segregation? Redlining? Contract fraud? Lack of voting rights? Random killings? Profiling? Brutality? Should I go on?

"But that type of woman just doesn't exist."

That's all I needed. You miss (or ignore - yeah, probably ignore) every point I make.

Good talking with you, Jeff.

The more salient question is, "Are you for reparations for your laundry list of injustice?" And if so, "What form would that take?"

Ignore? No, I saw the points and dismissed them.

@ Chaqa

I'm glad you cited "Adam-12". Everyone following this thread should watch a few episodes of Adam-12 when you get a chance. The episodes are only <30 min each and it's on (North American) Netflix.

It's basically late-1960s "Cops", as most of the episode plots drew from real-life case logs. The producers went to great lengths to make the show as realistic as possible.

The point is that Adam-12 highlights the stark contrast between police officers ~50 years ago and post-"Drug War"/post-1960s-civil-disorder police officers now. I won't claim that police officers are racist pigs, but I will claim that police are over-militarized and tasked with enforcing unfair/unconstitutional laws.

Reed and Malloy never executed a no-knock warrant, but still managed to catch plenty of bad guys. Could it be because they were willing to interact and socially engage the citizens on their beat? Hmmm...

@ bo_sox48 et al

I categorically refuse to pay any sort of "reparation". My family has, quite literally, bled for the black man's freedom. As I posted earlier, a maternal ancestor of mine was a Union Army infantryman who was WIA at the Battle of Shiloh. If the black community squanders the gift of freedom on thug culture, that is not my concern. If anyone wants to play the whole "Your ancestors were genocidal racists, and you should pay for it" fuck-fuck game, fine. We can play that game. No one within 400 years of me on my family tree has any connection to the slave industry.

@ All concerned (regarding police militarization)

I don't see much of a role for a SWAT team or a "riot control" team on a modern police force. In other words, there is no reason for the police to be as militarized as they are. In the case of a high-profile shootout/hostage situation, regular police are sufficiently capable, as has been shown anecdotally for years. In the case of a riot, riots are usually only contained/ended after National Guard (or, in extreme cases [1967 Detroit riots, 1992 LA riots], federal troops)

Congratulations, Gunfighter. You said your piece. Now you can shut up with your white supremacist bullshit. It's 1:30 AM and I am about to fly on a plane for 30 hours straight in a few hours. I don't care for it.

First of all, I don't care that you don't want to pay any reparation. Really. I don't give a fucking shit, because here's the thing - you won't even notice you're paying it. It won't affect you. It would cost you the equivalent of a cheeseburger from McDonald's once a year.

Your family has done good things. If you told the stories of what they did, they would receive appreciation for it. Thank you for carrying on the bloodline of good people. I wish you cared about preserving the ideals of the Union half as much as he did.

"If the black community squanders the gift of freedom on thug culture, that is not my concern."

This is appalling. You should not be able to sleep tonight after saying that. You're you, so I'm sure you will, but this is abso-fucking-lutely racist and it's pathetic.

First things first, "the gift of freedom" did not exist for emancipated slaves. They were never free because Jim Crow haunted their every move in the South, from illegitimate, racist voting regulations that didn't legally end until 1965 (and still exist to a lesser degree now), to taxes directed at blacks only and KKK-sponsored lynchings where a black body was burned and hung in front of hundreds of happy white faces.

http://www.journalofamericanhistory.org/teaching/2011_06/img/day2ex1_marion_lynching.jpg

Ever seen that before? That's "the gift of freedom." Congratulations, black people, you get lynched instead of starved to death over the course of years!

Second of all, thug culture? That's the first thing that comes to your mind when you think about the black communities of the world apparently. That's how you differentiate yourself from them. That's how you disassociate, and it's so deeply rooted in your mind that you don't even understand how racist that is.

"No one within 400 years of me on my family tree has any connection to the slave industry."

My family was in Poland into the 1900s and they still have connections to white supremacy. You're delusional to think that the fact that your family didn't own slaves and fought for the North in the Civil War disassociates them. Did they ever vote for someone who owned slaves? Did they ever vote for someone who supported slavery? Did they vote for someone who supported economic policies in the South that were predicated on the existence of slavery? Did they vote for anyone who *didn't* try to end slavery? Since the end of slavery, did anyone in your family ever vote for someone who supported Jim Crow, pushed for Jim Crow, wrote Jim Crow laws, etc etc.? Did they vote for anyone who didn't try to end Jim Crow? Did anyone in your family ever take part in a protest against black voters? Did they ever support the economies of Jim Crow states? Did they ever participate in housing segregation in the North? Did they ever encounter discrimination and do nothing about it? Did anyone in your family ever vote for anyone, either Republican or Democrat, that voted against HR-40?

The answer isn't yes to all of these, but it's yes to something. Therefore, you are liable, and I intend to wreck you and all you white fuckers for what you did. I'm gonna wreck you so fucking bad that I would implement a tax that requires that you to give a single McDonald's cheeseburger to the government every year in order to help dig a significant portion of your country out of "thug culture" as you call it. Gosh, what a horrifying gesture! A whole cheeseburger. Damn, bo, you're gonna bankrupt this whole fucking country, quit wrecking white people's lives!

But people here are so fucking afraid to pay for an extra cheeseburger for millions of strangers that need that fucking cheeseburger more than anything that they can't even approve a law that acknowledges slavery as an injustice and approves a study that looks into the possibility of reparations, potentially making recommendations. Has Congress ever followed a fucking recommendation? Doubt it.

Good night, Gunfighter. I'm sure I'll look at this thread again before I go but if you don't say anything stupidly racist before I leave, I probably won't care to respond, so humor me and you won't have to listen to me anymore.

I'm fine with helping out people who are inherently disadvantaged because of their race (which I agree is a persistent reality in our country due in no small part to the actions of white men), but I really, really fucking object to calling that aid "reparations". Reparations for what? What the fuck did I do? Neither I nor any other person alive today is responsible for the actions of people who looked like us a hundred years ago (or yesterday, or today, for that matter). I'm part Irish- my ancestors were no strangers to oppression.. I don't think I'm entitled to monetary compensation from descendants of the people involved with that oppression. If I were still experiencing economic and social repercussions from that oppression, I'd /appreciate/ assistance, but the descendants of the oppressors are not /responsible/ for me. They are no more morally obligated to lend me a hand than anyone else with the means to help.

On a separate note, Adam-12 is an amazing show. The homoerotic tension rivaled that of Batman and Robin.

Everyone, whether or not you are directly responsible for the current state of affairs is irrelevant. Sure you can deny responsibility for all the wrong doing (and that term definitely understates the matter) and say "that's our ancestors' fault, not mine", that does not mean wrong was not done. As such it is our responsibility, not as Americans, but as decent human beings to what we can to repair this injustice, especially if it means paying for the equivalent of a McDonald's cheeseburger a year.
On a separate note, the system (and society) is severely stacked against minorities. There is a reason our prison population is disproportionately black, and the reason is not simple that black people commit more crimes. Also, while not the most scientific of articles, this one actually has reasearch behind it showing some ways how racism is still in our country, whether we are aware of it or not.
http://www.cracked.com/article_21822_5-studies-that-prove-racism-still-way-worse-than-we-think.html

I honestly think that the talk of reparations should come possibly after our entire economy isn't in a deficit. Because we all know the best way to fix any economic problem is more spending. The needs of the whole outweigh the needs of the part. Right now reparations would just add to our billions of dollars a year deficit. I would definitely reconsider reparations in a more secure economic situation. The well being of one group of people is not worth the well being of the nation.

The whole concept of race based reparations is absurd, as is any kind of race based redistribution of wealth. What you achieve is an apartheid-esque segregation of the poor, with the deserving poor and underserving poor determined solely by the colour of their skin. This is stomach turning stuff and I'm amazed at how much support it has.

If I was a paranoid man I would be suspicious that the whole concept is a plan by the upper echelons of American society to divide and rule the working class. If you want to look for people who have come out on the wrong side of history, look not at their skin but at their bank balance. If you want to do something about it scrap all but 3 fleets and cut back your nuclear deterrent to under 1000 warheads, and invest the savings in decent state education.

@octavius- I agree with most of what you said but the dismantling of warheads actually costs more than the upkeep, same with naval vessels. The military could take cut backs to areas such as the air force's need to change uniforms everytime the army does. The marine corps is completely unessecary. That alone would save billions of dollars.

@bo, screw that. Where are the reparations to my family? Both my sides of family lived in countries invaded by Nazi's. One side got invaded by the USSR. They came over around 70 years ago, and have been living in America ever since. Why should you force me to pay reparations for things my family wasn't part of? I'm not paying the government any more taxes. No, I'll tell you what I am going to do. I am going to go out and HELP people. By MY CHOICE. I am going to go out and do community service. I am going this Christmas eve to bring hundreds of dollars of food and clothing to the homeless people of my area, (who are mostly black, if that makes you FEEL a little better.) And why? Because I CHOOSE to. I CHOOSE to, not because I OWE these people anything, but because they are human beings and have just as much dignity as me. If Americans had respect for these people and treated them right, we wouldn't "owe" anything. Bo, if you are so sore about this, GET OFF YOUR ASS and go help them.

Leaving aside the question of whether or not we ought to give reparations for past wrongs, it seems pretty clear to me that they would do nothing to solve the underlying problems. Throwing money at problems is rarely the solution.

The only thing that can really improve the situations of American blacks en mass is to restore the two-parent black family. Children raised by two parents do better in every area of life than those raised by one or by a grandparent. Individual exceptions exist (like our president for example), but as a general rule being raided by two parents gives those children a massive advantage in life.

African Americans have a 72% rate of children being born to unwed mothers. The other problems that exist are exacerbated by this reality.

If we're serious about tackling inequality we need to encourage the creation of two parent black families. Strong families make their members better off by virtually every metric.

Two parents families are nice in concept. The problem is that it requires two people to make it work and that is often a tough sell.

Better yet IMO is encouraging young people of every stripe, in particular young girls, to delay child-bearing and child-rearing as long as possible while they complete their education.

Our society has been having the race conversation long enough. I'm tired of walking on eggshells. Here it is:

If you don't think racism against black people is a serious and widespread problem in the world, you yourself are racist, phenomenally ignorant, or both. You're making white people look really really bad. Stop being such fuckheads and own up to it.

I was going to stay out of this and focus on my research, but I couldn't help myself.

First, in response to Thucy, if someone doesn't think there is racism against black people or some group of people in the world doesn't necessarily mean that they are at fault. Yes, they could be racist and yes, they could be ignorant but ignorance isn't always a choice. A poor education system can very well engender benign ignorance, so there is no need to characterize it as "phenomenally ignorant." If certain fortuitous life-changing event didn't happen to you, you might have well remained either racist or ignorant, so be thankful of that rather than to judge others who might not have been as lucky.

Second, why is an individual's racism or ignorance indicative of an entire group of people? Just because there are racist or ignorant individuals doesn't mean white people as a whole or in general are racist or ignorant or "look bad." This is one of worst forms of over-generalization, either intentionally or unintentionally.

Third, in response to some people's statements that they are not responsible in any shape or form of their ancestors' actions, that is just ridiculously callous. Historical forces play a huge role in shaping present and future outcomes. If we allow the argument that intergenerational wealth isn't accountable to current and past actions, we are incentivizing perverse incentives and rationalization, consciously and subconsciously, in the gathering of wealth or advantages. This clearly promotes people to do whatever they can to gather advantages and wealth to pass on to the next generations. Even in a moral system, it's a positive net gain for them to take immoral actions if one generation is damned while endless generations to follow are to reap the benefit. This line of thinking also neglects to take into account the intergenerational consequences of the people being exploited. The negative consequences do not stop at one generation but go on to affect subsequent generations. This doesn't mean that all past wrongs need to be considered. It depends on whether there is any reasonable traces of disadvantages due to the historical wrongs. There are clearly a large number of disadvantages for blacks and Native Americans in the United States for example and they can be traced and have been traced to historical actions. Racism and racial tensions are still prevalent in the United States and to think otherwise, particularly with recent events or the discussion in this thread, is just willful neglect.

Fourth, I don't know how effective "reparation" in the form of money would be. It would be a short live spike in improving black lives but it won't have any large scale linger effects. It won't create any intergenerational wealth. If this is to be done effectively, it's gotta to be done through education, jobs, and housing.

"Third, in response to some people's statements that they are not responsible in any shape or form of their ancestors' actions, that is just ridiculously callous. Historical forces play a huge role in shaping present and future outcomes."

Great point here. I will quibble on one word choice though.

People are not "responsible" for their ancestors' actions, but they certainly may have "benefited" from their ancestors' actions. That plays into the remainder of your point about inter-generational wealth, which is a founding principle of the United States--meritocracy over aristocracy.

I think that many people do acknowledge the advantages they have had if they were born as a white, male, heterosexual, upper-middle class, Christian American. I think that those born into more challenging or atypical circumstances realize much more fully that the proverbial deck is stacked against them though and have to work harder to achieve parity.

That said, I think those who are railing against "racists" are doing their cause a disservice by insulting those who are making reasonable points. In fact, I think just about every time the word "black" is used here, we should substitute the word "poor" and you'll get a much different response.

In this respect, zultar is spot on. The wealthy and powerful would much rather have the poor and disenfranchised fight each other than unite and demand that our tax code, laws and fundamental rights be aligned to support every citizen.

The people on this forum, however, zultar, do not have the luxury of that sort or excuse. They have heard about the issues at hand and have been repeated exposed to the problems in question. So my complaint is unchanged. It's ridiculous that people on this website who have been participating in these conversations for years are still so thick headed about it. Racism is real. You don't have to be black to be made aware of it. It's not that fucking hard to figure out. At this point, there's very little excusing that can be done.

I don't think anyone is arguing racism isn't real, Thucy, we're arguing it's impact on police brutality and other race-related issues. I think you missed the entire point.

See here is what pisses me off. When I heat others getting accused of being racist for not actively working to change or fix racist views of other people. Accusing someone of being racist because I'm not working to fix the problem is absurd. There are endless problems in this world, if I decide that I'm more concerned about donating my time towards the research to cure cancer, or donate my time/money to helping those with various illnesses that is my CHOICE. I am not at fault for people being sick, and I am not at fault for antiquated views towards a culture. Do I understand, sympathize, and try to help when possible, absolutely. But I have no obligation to pick this cause over the endless other equally important causes that result in deaths all over the world.

And really Thucy, you should know better then "they have been exposed to it for years, there's really no excusing it". There's really no excuse to make joking death threats, there's really no excuse to making cheating accusations, discussing ongoing gunboats on the forum, or failing to email the mods when you think someone's been cheating. We've been exposing members to these ideas for years. Guess What, even ex mods break them, or ignore those rules when convenient. People are not perfect, so judging "people" based on your anger at a few specific people is not fair. Everyone slips up sometimes, be it site rules, socially incorrect statements, cursing around kids, whatever. No one will ever be perfect, so to have you sitting here screaming that no one has an excuse for not being an active, LETS FIX IT NOW, activist is just plain annoying.

what pisses me off is muffins. Seriously, who the fuck makes a lumpy cupcake and then doesn't cover up their mistake with even a little bit of icing? like for real. But to refocus, like muffins racism comes in many flavors. From the noticeable bold flavors, similar to pumpkin, that normally take the shape of lynch mobs and discriminate killings; to the less noticeable soft flavors, similar to brown sugar, that normally take the shape of stereotypes and assumptions resulting in higher rates of minorities in poverty. See I am fed up with all the muffins, and those who propagate these little hunchbacks of the pastry world, but just as the muffins will always have support so will racism and rather than get all upset and angry and take it out on all pastry lovers, I am intelligent enough to try to find alternative means. I can stop eating muffins myself, that will have a small but ever compiling affect. I can suggest politely to my friends not to eat muffins for several reasons and that will add more to my cause. I can try to popularize cupcakes and that too will have an effect. The battle will be slow, companies will continue to cater to the muffin eaters, they are long established. I will hold strong and with time muffins will become a thing of the past, the rare muffin eater will be an oddity in that future world. But that will take time. just like combating racism, time and patience.

I think America and perhaps the whole Western world is overly sensitive when it comes to racism and related issues. People are afraid to be called 'racist' or bigoted. It's stupid. Cultural differences have stopped being fun. Parts of Western culture that do not comply with arbitrary ideas of racism or an arbitrary idealism must be renounced.

Here in the Netherlands we just have had a furious debate about the figure of Black Pete. Now for most Americans this figure will sound racist. Well, so what. Go mind your own business in your own country. As we do ours. I fear American arguments about racism are coming over the big pond (or the Channel for that matter). What was stupid about the whole debate is both sides becoming increasingly dogmatic. The 'Black Pete is racism' demanding the abolition of this figure and even protesting at the 'Intocht van Sinterklaas' (coming of Saint Nicolas) in Gouda. Protesting. At a feast for children. On the other side people went as far as to resort to actual racism. Slurs, threats, even death threats. I'm glad it has subsided a bit, but big chance things will start again next year.

Give eachother a little space man. I mean, go to a Middle Eastern country and ask them about negro's.* Or China for that matter. Or, ask them about Jews. Even if the Western countries were remotely racist, it's nothing compared to existing racism in the non-Western world.

* Oh wait, you're not supposed to say that anymore. :/

The muffin man holding me down.

see what I mean. man mentions the muffin conspiracy and the whole thread shuts down... shameful.