My experience, HR, is that growth on this site pretty nearly exactly offsets death. This, admittedly, is based on the forum. But about every month or two, we lose a longtime regular, and we gain a couple of new really active posters.

If anyone is interested, here is the distribution of users, based on GR (which I believe lists everyone who has played in the last 3-6 months).

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwH0Gnsrya38X0ZmdFpScUhrTzQ/edit?usp=sharing

Average Active ID is 51660, corresponding to April 2013.

I'm old!

Puhleeeeeeeese! I'm almost 3 years older than you. December of 2008. And I'm nowhere near the oldest.

That's why I was surprised. I don't think of myself as old.

Honestly Krellin, I think many of my girl friends would be horrified at some of the comments here. Feminism is big at universities, especially when it's taught a lot.

The growth rate of new accounts has slowed a little bit over the past year or so from its previous trend. I calculated the numbers out roughly by hand -- the leaps from 10000 to 20000, 20000 to 30000, etc. occur roughly 12 months apart, but the leap from 50000 to 60000 was about 13 months, and we've had 3500 users in the 5 months since then, so it is slowing a little.

But that doesn't really mean anything in and of itself, we need to look at the retention rate, which is harder to calculate (read: takes more than a few minutes to do, lol).

@PE

My chart gives some idea of retention rate.

If we were to do the same thing for the last 5 years and look at the difference in distribution, we could learn a lot.

Regarding the "does the forum drive away new users" question - I think it's pretty clear that threads like the one Socrates is talking about certainly won't *improve* retention. Or, if they do, we should be aware of the kind of "improvement" it will make to retention.

Remember that the forum front page is the first interaction that a new user has with the site - they see it before they even search for games to join, since it's the home page. Whatever is on the forum *right then* will certainly affect their first impression of the site's users.

As to Abgemacht's suggestion that users tell their friends to join - I've certainly promoted the site to friends - but when I do, I typically warn them that the forum doesn't reflect the play experience here (I don't think it does). As far as I know, only one person I've promoted the site to has stuck around. And they stay out of the forum.

On retention rate, if we did measure retention, I'm not sure how we'd be able to tell whether or not we were losing users due to the forum or not.

We certainly lose players - some of the people I've played with since joining last year don't log in any more. And there are of course players banned for cheating who are no longer around (although not retaining cheaters is certainly good for the site).

When I first joined and for quite awhile after, I long had the vague impression that the forum was full of gassy windbags talking about things they little understood, and paid it not the slightest mind. I continued using the site, for the same reason I continue using youtube, newspaper websites, and every other website whose comments and forums are full of gassy windbags talking about things they little understand: it's useful for the main thing it does.

If people have been on the internet for much time at all and haven't learned to make that assessment, dear help them.

Sure. But the argument "look, I'm still around aren't I?" is weak - clearly everyone who might post on this thread *hasn't* been driven away by the forum :)

I also think that diplomacy (probably) attracts people with a slightly thicker skin than normal, too, though I have no data on that. However, just because you have a thick skin doesn't mean you should be fine with being attacked (or whatever).

On youtube and news sites, you can typically ignore the comments. However, if you want to be an active member of the site and take part in interesting games, tournaments or just find reliable players for a private game, you have to be exposed to the forum. Sure, I can mute topics, but every time you mute something you have to decide whether you want to mute it by reading some of it first.

"If we were to do the same thing for the last 5 years and look at the difference in distribution, we could learn a lot."

Agreed. Can you? ;) lol

That wasn't my argument, A_Tin_Can.

I'll do it tonight after work.

In the meantime, why doesn't someone go back to the beginning of the Forum and see what the average post was about. Maybe every 100 pages?

My posts have expressed interest in the affect of moderation on retention (whether official or self), but fundamentally, even if retention rates would be unchanged (even if somehow retention rates decreased!), I would still favour less misogyny on the website. It's not primarily troubling because of it's possible influence on membership numbers, but because it just shouldn't be acceptable. Whether mods enforce a rule on it, or we just encourage members to calm down on the casual chauvinism is a different (but connected) debate too, I just really wanted to highlight what I thought was a problem with what is probably my favourite website.

Socrates - I suggest sometimes you listen in on about 4 or 5 women talking - **especially** feminists - when they get on the topic of men. But you better not be some overly-sensitive pussy if you are goign to listen in.

Feminists are the biggest fucking hypocrites out there - primarily a bunch of angry male-nashers in their quiet moments when the truth of their feelings comes out. Most don't want equality....they want *revenge*.

Whether or not feminists are jerks, why should that have any bearing on how *we* treat women in general?

I agree, lots of feminists (I'm a feminist incidentally) are hypocritical. Some do just want female superiority. This, however, does not change the fact that there are legitimate points, that feminism is important, and more specifically to this thread, like abge said, we shouldn't change how we treat women based in whether feminists are hypocrites or not.

1. Joined July 18th, 2007...haha...wow, older than Draug. I can't remember a time before Draug, lol. I wonder what my first message was (nearly 11K now...though considering how long my posts can be, I demand that number be at least doubled to accurately reflect the total tonnage of bullshit commentary I've contributed in my almost-7-years here.) ;)

"Women like to mock men, make fun of them, cut them down, belittle them, etc...

So...you're saying women are people. ;)

For what it's worth, I generally prefer conversations with women than men, most of my friends are women, and English and most all the Humanities are female-dominated fields of study in terms of just the men-to-women ratio of students (professors and who's in charge is probably another story, I'm sure.)

Reading, wine, baseball, football, hockey, music, what whiny tight-ass liberals we all are...it's all good. ;) (Except for the whiny part...I don't care who you are, krellin...I know women that could kick anyone's ass when pissed, lol.) ;)

3. As for the whole feminism thing--there are different kinds of feminism, and different kinds of feminists...I think feminism is on the whole a great movement and important, and like any movement, it has its bad seeds (like the lady who wrote a rambling manifesto on The Society for Cutting Up Men and then went and shot Andy Warhol) but on the whole, it's a good thing.

4. With the understanding that it's for fun:

What would krellin be like if he were a woman?

abge - Because, I don't buy into their so-called outrage over "mysoginist" humor, since they tend to be guilty of SAME in reverse. Because I truly believe that there is this growing trend in our society that believe believe they are **supposed** to be offended at everything other than the bland gray words on nothingness. That there once was a time where self-depricating humor, and humor at the expense of others, was taken as just that...humor, not some vile attack and an attempt to suppress someone. Especially since as this World of Thought Police takes a more and more active role in our society, they have this **nasty** tendency to make carve-outs for specific groups....women are free to bash men - hell, they are encouraged to! Blacks are allowed to have special words that otherwise would be considered highly offensive, but <wink, nod...> their special, and we don't expect better of them.

I recently drove to Florida and spent most of my drive there and back listening to Satellite radio comedy channels. I think most of the overly-sensitive twats around here with the *constant* assertions of (feigned) outrage would probably have their heads literally explode if they actually listened to a slice of American culture outside their protective bubbles.

Self-confident, self-assured *adults*, with a mature sense of relations between the sexes, can actualyl listen to a little humor -- "attacks" on men, "attacks" on women, "attacks" on children, priests, dog, cats, even (GASP!!!) children...and accept it as humor, generally derived from stereotypical behavior patterns that (*GASP!!!*) are actually true patterns of behavior, and are therefore funny!!

Making humor about a woman who goes insane once a month as some do...and recognizing that some may...JUST MAYBE....play it up a little...IS FUNNY....and woman in a quiet moment of honesty might just say, "Hell yes I take advantage of my period to be a bitch..."


So seriously...get the fuck over it, all of you.

Seriously, most of you must be some of the boringest, most humorless pathetic shmucks in the world. If you spend most of your time buried in a computer and find maybe that you have a little difficulty socially...I suggest you step away from the insanely narrow-minded, self-righteous, "the world as it must be" liberalism that so many of you think actually represents reality.

And Socrates - I have a working wife, and I have two dughters that I am trying to guide towards future careers. Trust me, my friend, I am a feminist. I demand equal pay for equal work. I demand equal ACCESS to opportunity. I demand that they recieve the respect they deserve for who they are as people....not who they are as walking vaginas.

So....equal respect....meaning that just as when I am together with my male friends the conversation may get into a little self-depreicating humor at times, and may slip into personal attacks on one another at times....SO TOO SHOULD MY RELATIONSHIP WITH A WOMAN be the same. If she acts like a dolt and does something stupid that is particularly a female-type behavior, I may (GASP!!!) joke at her about her stereo-typical femal behavior, JUST AS I WOULD MY MALE COUNTERPART.

THAT is equality, my friend. Equality doesn't mean "walk on egg-shells when you are with a woman because she is soooo sensitive...you know how women are"....because, in fact, THAT pattern of behavior towards a woman IS THE SEXIST BEHAVIOR - becuse you are treating them differently BECAUSE OF THEIR VAGINA.

I will joke with any and all people I work with, regardless of gender or sex. And yes...the black girl at the front desk...we joke at each other about race...and when my wife and I were teh only white people at her baby shower, that was pretty fucking funny shit to talk about the following week - krellin and Mrs. k - the token white folk at the baby shower (but they sure does buy nice gifts!! ha ha But that's just 'cause you feel guilty)

"BECAUSE OF THEIR VAGINA"

This is the best sentence you've ever capitalized. This should be your new catchphrase.

"Especially since as this World of Thought Police takes a more and more active role in our society, they have this **nasty** tendency to make carve-outs for specific groups....women are free to bash men - hell, they are encouraged to!"

1. Well...there's a lot to bash...I mean, you alone could supply a talk show, book, and talk show's book club's worth of of material.

"Blacks are allowed to have special words that otherwise would be considered highly offensive, but <wink, nod...> their special, and we don't expect better of them."

2. Um...no...it isn't that we "don't expect better" of them...it's that most civilized people have decided using the N-word and associated slurs are, you know, kind of fucking awful and we should stop that shit? (Unless you're talking about another word...I'll be disappointed if its "cracker," since frankly...well, the N-word is a word that dehumanizes and hurts people...are you REALLY hurt so badly or dehumanized by "cracker?")

"I think most of the overly-sensitive twats around here with the *constant* assertions of (feigned) outrage would probably have their heads literally explode if they actually listened to a slice of American culture outside their protective bubbles."

3. It depends on the comedian and joke. You can say some fucked up shit and have it be "OK" in comedy because...it's a joke...as with most things in comedy, it's about the timing and how its told. If you told an Arab or "Fuck NYC" joke the day after 9/11, chances are you'd get your ass kicked, the timing's just bad. The comedian in question is also important. When George Carlin or Eddie Izzard Or Ellen Degeneres say some shit, it's taken with a different tone than if other people say it.

"Making humor about a woman who goes insane once a month as some do...and recognizing that some may...JUST MAYBE....play it up a little...IS FUNNY....and woman in a quiet moment of honesty might just say, "Hell yes I take advantage of my period to be a bitch..."

4. Eh...I don't really see period jokes as offensive in and of themselves, just like a joke about ejaculation for men isn't inherently offensive. Then again, both of those topics have been fucking done to death, so they're not as funny sometimes just because they're stale material, unless someone brings a new twist to it.

"I have a working wife, and I have two dughters that I am trying to guide towards future careers. Trust me, my friend, I am a feminist. I demand equal pay for equal work. I demand equal ACCESS to opportunity. I demand that they recieve the respect they deserve for who they are as people....not who they are as walking vaginas.

So....equal respect....meaning that just as when I am together with my male friends the conversation may get into a little self-depreicating humor at times, and may slip into personal attacks on one another at times....SO TOO SHOULD MY RELATIONSHIP WITH A WOMAN be the same. If she acts like a dolt and does something stupid that is particularly a female-type behavior, I may (GASP!!!) joke at her about her stereo-typical femal behavior, JUST AS I WOULD MY MALE COUNTERPART.

THAT is equality, my friend. Equality doesn't mean "walk on egg-shells when you are with a woman because she is soooo sensitive...you know how women are"....because, in fact, THAT pattern of behavior towards a woman IS THE SEXIST BEHAVIOR - becuse you are treating them differently BECAUSE OF THEIR VAGINA."

5. That's fair, and I think everyone here's for that...

"And yes...the black girl at the front desk...we joke at each other about race...and when my wife and I were teh only white people at her baby shower, that was pretty fucking funny shit to talk about the following week - krellin and Mrs. k - the token white folk at the baby shower (but they sure does buy nice gifts!! ha ha But that's just 'cause you feel guilty)"

6. Well, yeah, you knew the person. It's fine if you know the person and both parties are cool with the deprecating humor...

If you WEREN'T familiar with that person, though, you wouldn't say such things...

And the media's broad, impersonal relationship to the sexes is different than you having a personal relationship to people and thus being able to say what you want to them because you know they can take it. If that black girl at the front desk didn't like those kinds of jokes about race, you wouldn't say them. (I'd ask how you're saying them anyway, since familiarity or no, that still seems like you're just inviting a big fat libtard-fueled workplace harassment lawsuit of some kind, people sue over everything today, so even a person overhearing you two could get offended and cause problems, but eh, your business.)

The issue isn't how you treat friends, but how you treat everyone, and how the media portrays everyone.

""BECAUSE OF THEIR VAGINA"

This is the best sentence you've ever capitalized. This should be your new catchphrase."

7. ^I am in full agreement with this.

Obi - I wish I had the intestinal fortitude to read your above drivel...but I don't, and I won't. Sorry. Chances are it's utter hogwash and Libtardism at it's finest....so...

tldnr.

If anyone would like to summarize the Babblings of Obi...feel free.

GOOD LORD!! I've just found a new character for my in-progress book.

Obi - mind if I use you???