"Oddly enough, NOW who's being the sports elitist, claiming only a certain, elect, elite markets are "real" sports markets, while the rest are mediocre to abysmal to crap...hm?"

I'm not saying that at all. All I said was that hot weather teams tend to have poor attendance, and provided quite a lot of evidence to back that up. Florida is particularly notorious for not supporting their professional franchises, even when they win.

"What happened to "according to NEED?""

You're going to redbait me in a sports thread?

"Yeah...no, sorry, the A's are not more iconic than the Dodgers, well-known baeball
"fact," the "Six Crown Jewel Teams" are unofficially the Yankees, Red Sox, Cardinals, Cubs, Dodgers, and Giants"

I was merely pointing out that the As, despite being a dominant franchise not so very long ago (and a regular playoff contender with the Angels until the last 5 or so years), have pathetic fan support. When I was growing up people were enthralled with that team. Mark McGuire, Jose Canseco, Dave Stewart, Dennis Eckersley, these guys were the kings of baseball. I know they're not more "iconic" than the Dodgers, but the reputations of the Dodgers & Giants, and why they have a fierce rivalry, is largely a product of their play when they were in NY.

"but for FSU, because it suits your cobled-together-argument based on a flimsy premise, tHEN it's OK? Sure...whatever you say..."

Evidently you didn't bother to read where I pointed out capacity for a whole slew of teams. Marlins have bad attendance no matter how you slice the data. Sun Life Stadium is not very big in terms of baseball capacity, so you can't use that excuse. For baseball it only seats 38,000.

"And I like how you say "only" 40,000, byt the way...yeah, try and get 40K to watch YOUU play a sport, and then you can knock such a perfectly-respectable attendance figure."

40,000 people for a top ranked college football program with the biggest draw in the country in Andrew Luck? Yeah that's terrible. *East Carolina* football gets 50,000 to their games, that's how bad Stanford's attendance is. And East Carolina isn't even remotely in a metropolitan area, while Stanford is. You have to measure attendance by what everybody else is doing in the sport.

"-Let's go pro with this for a moment--the Expos were relocated from Quebec--doesn't get much colder and Northern than Canada!--to D.C...how does your theory work there?"

The Expos were screwed by their own ownership, but yeah baseball never took off there. It's a hockey town. The commitment of Canadian fans for sports though I think is exemplified by the fact that the Winnipeg Jets sold out immediately when they put tickets on sale, and by the fact that Quebec Nordique gear is still sold everywhere in Quebec City even though their franchise was moved over a decade ago.

" What about the Lions' base?"

Dude, Detroit is the #1 sports city in America for a reason. They show up for games. For any and all sports. How many cities have a franchise in every single major sport that aren't named New York or Chicago? Not many. All it took was for Detroit to win 3 or 4 games and the stadium was filled to the brim with fans screaming so much that the opposing team had something like 9 false start penalties. You couldn't get that level of enthusiasm if the Dolphins were 4-0, or the Bucs were 4-0, or the Falcons were 4-0. Ask any coach who played vs the Lions when they were remotely good, and they'll tell you how much Lions fans show up for games. The Lions have suffered more than any other franchise, that type of suffering takes its toll. But I've seen Lion supporters in Columbus even when they're bad.

"but talk about moving the New York Islanders, and WHOA! that's a franchise too far! "

I didn't talk about moving anybody. I just said the two Florida teams are a joke and attendance in the South is poor. Which isn't even disputed. Why are you so agitated about this? I didn't even say anything about the Islanders. Why are you railing about stuff I'm not even saying? (BTW Islander attendance, bad as it is, is still better than Phoenix and Dallas. Two teams that tend to play a heck of a lot better than the NYI).

"The Detroit Lions have 0 SB titles and have never even been to a Conference title game."

And yet they're loved more than the Tampa Bay Bucs or Jacksonville Jaguars, who have been to conference titles and/or superbowls.

"Green Bay, a far, far, far, FAR smaller and, by all conventional measures, inferior market, has been to 5 SBs, winning 4 of them, has the only undefeated team in the NFL as of this week, numerous HOFers, AND has the distinction of having the SB trophy named after their iconic coach Vince Lombardi."

Wisconsin people love their sports teams, period. People show up to Milwaukee games even if they're not that great. They're always near the top in attendance. The Bucks do quite well considering they never have winning teams. If all it took was winning, Florida teams wouldn't have problems filling their stadiums, but yet they do.

"The Ducks, sharks, and Kings each have claims to fame, each have iconic players"

Which is why it is shocking that nobody shows up to their games.

Last year - the Ducks were barely above my Bluejackets in attendance - 26th. The Sharks were 17th and they're always good! The Kings were 14th.

Thanks for helping me out.

"-Minnesota Twins: Frequently having monetary woes (MUST STAY...but, again, still...)"

They're top 5 in attendance despite being the worst team in baseball. I'd say they're fine.

"-Buffalo Sabres: Constantly hurt by the NY/NJ/TOR markets (should stay, but still)"

Hurt? They're drubbing every Californian team in getting fans to the games (as well as beating the Rangers). You don't know what you're talking about. Buffalo Sabres are a devoted fanbase. They show up to games. New York state is a hockey crazy state, at least in the upstate area. The world stops for several of my relatives when the Sabres are on.

"Buffalo Bills: Contemplating a move to Toronto (shouldn't happen imo, but still...)"

You need your head checked if you think that fan base doesn't show up. Even with a decade of futility and a horrible horrible economy (much worse than San Diego!) they show up. They're one of the smallest markets and have a medicore product most years, and yet some of these years this past decade they've been among the top 10 in attendance. By comparison, look at the Raiders. What franchise is more "iconic" than they? What franchise has more of a "legacy"? Yet look at who shows up to their games this past decade. Nobody.

"or else tell Green Bay they're losing their team"

Why would they lose their team? Wisconsinites love their team so much they *own* it! I guarantee you Lambeau had a packed stadium even in mediocre years.