Bottom line, despite your statement, I do not feel that Israel holds a moral high ground. I criticized the flotilla the gaza campaign and the shootings of this summer among others. The difference between you and diplomat is simple, you see every depraved act the Palestinians do as justified by some depraved act of the IDF while diplomat sees it the other way around. The illustration is right there in your post. The Palestinians we are told "are forced' to use suicide bombers against civilian targets. Like there have never been resistance movements which focus on military targets. Who thinks who has the high moral ground Tolstoy?

What's to the stop them is well this swap was very expensive in blood and treasure for Hamas. Consider that this took 5+ years to happen, and two wars have since passed, not to mention a blockade. This last point is important, because Israel still has that as leverage over Hamas. If the released prisoners behave, then the blockade will be eased.

Sorry if I don't look to Tolstoy as an authority on racial progressivism. His concern about anti-Arab racism is rather odd and selective, but it all makes sense when you consider the whole Paleo-Libertarian milieu he runs in. They all roll their eyes about "racism" in general, and make really nasty racist arguments about virtually everything, but get really angsty about Israeli 'racism'. Look at the writings of Rothbard, Rockwell, Charles Murray, Pat Buchanan, Sam Francis, Raimondo, Herman Hoppe, all the people in the LVMI, it's the same deal on the question of race. And a good lot of them are outraged about Israel. Because after all, it's ok to write screeds about the evils of egalitarianism, civil rights, immigration, emancipation, democracy, desegregation, and all of that, and it's ok to write about natural superiority of whites and even about white separatism, but Israel is an "apartheid state" and anti-Arab racism is beyond the pale.

http://www.economist.com/node/21530175

Hamas is a terrorist organization in the same way that Washington's Rebellion was. They have had their lands taken away from them, and they are fighting for it back. The fact that the most right wing paper I read takes a pro-Palestine stance just goes to show how bad Isreal is.

Yes, because "Washington's rebellion" packed members in gunpowder then blew up taverns in the middle of london.

As usual Fasces you are a fucking idiot.

and yes, it is very surprising that the most far right paper a racist, fascist, punk kid reads is Anti-Israel. I always heard those far right fascists have a record of supporting jews

Hold the phone, what "lands" were taken away from the Americans?

Fasces is obviously making a sophisticated argument relating to the role of the Quebec act in provoking the revolution.

Or he's just a dumbshit that made a terrible analogy.

I'll go for the latter.

"I do bristle when someone uses the word "goy" as if I am some inherently racist Jew who sees the world as the enlightened jew and the depraved goy though"

And I bristle at being called a racist for daring to quote the malicious statements of others. I'm sorry if I lack the tact or manners of "intelligent columnists, activists, and world leaders", but demands that I shed a tear for a soldier captured in a war but not for the Palestinians who live in an open air prison and have no security of life, liberty, or property really rub me the wrong way.

"Why did you use the word goy? What were you implying?"

Your opening comments on this thread and others (particularly your attack on obiwan awhile back for his 'assimilationism') left me with the impression that you have a problem to some degree with gentiles in general. I was hoping to push your buttons a bit and get to the bottom of that theory. I had actually typed 'gentile' first, but went back and changed it.

"Why did you bring up the word of one whack job rabbi and attempt to pass it off as some widely held belief among Jews?"

When did I say it was a widely held belief among Jews? I fully realize that this was (and hopefully still is, although I wonder sometimes) a fringe opinion in Israeli society. I brought it up to counter (or perhaps highlight) the absurdity of expecting the numbers in the prisoner exchange to somehow match some calculus of human value. There are certainly other ways I could've made this point, but this was the first to pop into my head.

"Why do you hold Jews and others to completely separate standards? "

Probably because one side is a wealthy military superpower and the other is the impoverished and trapped grandchildren of refugees who live under a constant state of siege.

"Many if not all of them are accidents or collateral damage, tell me tolstoy, are bus bombings accidents?"

The difference between Palestinian and Israeli terror seems to be that one side will gladly take responsibility for killing people, while the other will just shrug and say "whoopsie - We didn't mean to do that!" with their fingers crossed behind their back. I'm not thrilled about the violence on either side's part, but one side is telling me the hard truth about their actions and the other obviously thinks I (and the rest of the world) am an idiot. I resent that. Santa, can you name the incidents I referred to and tell me they were all honest mistakes? In one of them, the IDF soldiers involved were convicted of murder by an Israeli court but received an almost instant pardon (they were considered national heroes).

" I guess the Zionist dream died quick..."

As far as some were concerned, it was over very quickly. One of the most spirited points of contention in the early Yishuv was over the permissibility of paying Arab laborers to help build Jewish settlements. Hardliners insisted that Israel be built with Jewish labor only, but many of the Jewish settlers had absolutely no experience with farming. I can recall reading at least one story of a grove of trees being uprooted when the leaders of one settlement found out that some of the settlers had paid local fellahin to plant them.

"Sorry if I don't look to Tolstoy as an authority on racial progressivism..."

LOL! Your ill-informed ad hominems and constant name-dropping of people you've never actually read always entertain. You do realize half the names on your list are Jewish, right?

"In one of them, the IDF soldiers involved were convicted of murder by an Israeli court but received an almost instant pardon (they were considered national heroes)."

How about you name them and I'll read into them, I have heard many depressing true stories. I have also heard many lies that are judged true without a moment of thought because you know those evil israelis.

"Your opening comments on this thread and others (particularly your attack on obiwan awhile back for his 'assimilationism') left me with the impression that you have a problem to some degree with gentiles in general. I was hoping to push your buttons a bit and get to the bottom of that theory. I had actually typed 'gentile' first, but went back and changed it."

My opening words of this thread had nothing to do with gentiles, and in no way showed any contempt for them. You contempt for Israelis in general rather than the army or government, and, yes, jews however drips from every word you type. Why would you bristle at being called a anti semite when your word choice (which you considered long and hard supposedly) clearly shows you have a problem with jews

"Probably because one side is a wealthy military superpower and the other is the impoverished and trapped grandchildren of refugees who live under a constant state of siege."

I was in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem in 96 when Hamas blew up city buses to derail the peace process, believe me there is more than one type of siege. but I know, you don't care.

"As far as some were concerned, it was over very quickly. One of the most spirited points of contention in the early Yishuv was over the permissibility of paying Arab laborers to help build Jewish settlements. Hardliners insisted that Israel be built with Jewish labor only, but many of the Jewish settlers had absolutely no experience with farming. I can recall reading at least one story of a grove of trees being uprooted when the leaders of one settlement found out that some of the settlers had paid local fellahin to plant them. "

Oh one story! How about the name of this book? Im glad the inherently racist jews were forced to change their ways by circumstance. Where did your argument about citizenship go?And about the Labor party and everything.

So the fact that Rothbard and Murray are Jewish gives them a blank check to say whatever they want about blacks and other people they deem(ed) inferior? What on earth is your point? Rothbard himself claimed to be a "pro-Christian Jew" and wrote nonsense in defense of Pat Buchanan about the oppression faced by Jew haters by the "anti-anti-semite" PC police.

I don't get why just because you're Jewish you're absolved from hating your own people, which Rothbard clearly did, raving as he did about those evil Jewish financiers forcing through child labor laws, women's suffrage and other things he considered to be abominations. He resented the liberalism of his own people. He's one of the few Jews that gets the two thumbs up from Stormfront.

'They traded 1 soldier, who was captured in a cross border raid in territory that is undisputedly owned by Israel for over 1000 Palestinian prisoners'

From the tone of this, can i assume you think it is wrong for Hamas to go into Israel and capture military personal?

And by the same measure, isn't it wrong for the Israeli Defence Force to go into Gaza/the West Bank and capture Hamas militants?

Just wondering, because suicide bomber or tank driver makes little difference in my mind, both are willing to use violence to achieve their mission.

Also, i had thought this was a relatively educated bunch.

Can someone explain the use of the word terrorism and how this applies to states causing terror?

I think it is an unfair dichotomy to think of one actions as appropriate military move for a nation, and another as inappropriate terrorist attack for a non-nation.

So, if organized crime elements engage in abductions, that's the same as police making arrests, right?

Israel is notorious for making abductions of their own of Palestinians without any legal backing whatsoever

hell, they have and continue to abduct pieces of land that is under international law not theirs but do you care to blow the whistle there? nope

sigh... at the end of the day, it's just israel and palestine. its so fucking small. just cut off aid to both of them and let them figure it out on there own.

kick them both of the the UN and everything else theyre in and say you can't come back till you stop killing each other.

Just to let you know, support for israel is pretty concentrated in America, no one else really does. I've been told this is becaue of the combined power of the jewish lobby and the Evangelical christian lobby. I'm sure thats true but there is alot more to it. for example take all of the stuff you learned in journalism 101 and apply it to AMERICAN NEWS STORIES (srry caops) that deal with israel.

also theres this lol
http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/66784/Louis_Theroux_on_Ultra_Zionists_1_4/

Alos just to clarify, palestinians are semitic peoples, while as most israelis jews (especially the ones in politics) are overwhelmingly not.

kind of makes you look at (anti-semitism) in a new way

@ thucy

US gave israel nukes so I think its a bit late for the hands off approach. thats like kicking one boxer in the face a bunch of times, wrapping the other boxers glove with barb-wire then ringing the bell

morning chaps, care to take a short break from your dialogue to partake of some diplomatic murder at my game, whose number I've conveniently forgotten, but starts in 2-3mins?

70423. Bad short-term memory these days...
sorry to crash your debate ;)

"Alos just to clarify, palestinians are semitic peoples, while as most israelis jews (especially the ones in politics) are overwhelmingly not.

kind of makes you look at (anti-semitism) in a new way "

ah the conspiracy theorist has bought into the Khazar bullshit too. Stormfront must be proud

"US gave israel nukes so I think its a bit late for the hands off approach. thats like kicking one boxer in the face a bunch of times, wrapping the other boxers glove with barb-wire then ringing the bell "

Actually the French and British helped Israel develop Nuclear Capability and Israel produced its own weapons. As usual you have no idea what you are talking about. Thanks for playing!

Just so everyone understand where Sicarius is coming from here, he is calling upon a 19th century Anti-Semitic trope popularized by Albion is israel supporters and later the Nazis themselves that claim most Jews are actually from the 12th near east kingdom of Khazar. There is absolutely no proof of this, and Ashkenazim jewry was already well established in Europe by the time, as is evidenced by some of the only real evidence we have regarding the Jews of Khazar, the dialogue between FRENCH rabbis and the Khazarine royals. Yet despite this, certain people convince themselves that European Jewry had died out or was in the process of doing so when the Khazar popped up. Therefore, all European Jews are actually Khazar and not semitic (which is disputed by genetic stuies). The purpose of the Khazar lie, of course, is to justify Jewish persecution. After all the Jews in Europe all Europeans loved to persecute could therefore be said to be unrelated to Jesus and even more susceptible to political and economic repression. Yet this is what our friend Sicarius believes, unless I am mistaken.

Doesn't matter whether Arabs are "Semitic peoples", Anti-Semitism has a specific meaning. The term was coined by Europeans with a racial (as opposed to religious) hatred of Jews. It had nothing to do with Arabs.

In other news, NATO's Al Qaeda friends murdered Gaddafi. I wish there was a hell they could burn in.

"[Rothbard]'s one of the few Jews that gets the two thumbs up from Stormfront."

One of the others being Karl Marx, of course. But I'm sure you have a good excuse for that embarrasing fact.

"Oh one story! How about the name of this book?"

The Gun and the Olive Branch by David Hirst. If you want to be a dick about it, I can get you a page number for a proper cite.

"My opening words of this thread had nothing to do with gentiles"

And yet...

"Please and be sure to explain why they are much better than your Iranian buddies quotes. Oh I forgot, Muslim racism doesn't count, just like muslim violence doesn't count, or muslim hypocrisy doesn;t count. Criticism for that stuff is saved for the Jews. Oh I know you aren't an Anti-Semite, your an anti-zionist... right."

So criticizing Israeli actions and statements of a (fringe) Israeli religious leader is bigotry, but calling all Muslims violent hypocritical racists is a-okay.

" You contempt for Israelis in general rather than the army or government, and, yes, jews however drips from every word you type. Why would you bristle at being called a anti semite when your word choice (which you considered long and hard supposedly) clearly shows you have a problem with jews"

What, so I'm supposed to preface every noun with a string of pronouns and adjectives to pin my contempt as precisely as possible in order to avoid offending you? You made no effort to distinguish between Hamas militants, Hamas social service workers, Hamas clerics, or Hamas voters. Do I get to call you a bigot also?

"How about you name them and I'll read into them, I have heard many depressing true stories. I have also heard many lies that are judged true without a moment of thought because you know those evil israelis."

The four I mentioned were:
The Kafr Kassem Massacre
The Qana massacre
Sabra and Shatila
Libyan Arab Airlines Flight 114

I can list plenty more if you find all of these to've been "Tragic Accidents"