"On the other hand, Israelis fear that the Palestinian state will be a state of terror, which is not so absurd - just look at what's going on in Gaza VS other territories. While Gaza, which is governed by Hamas, is suffering from economic and health problems"

Gaza is an open air prison, blockaded by the Israeli navy and walled in to limit supplies. It suffers economic and health problems BECAUSE OF ISRAEL!

And don't even think about trying to break that blockade to give much needed supplies to the people. History has shown that you will be raided and shot.

And if you are an American, your president will sit idly by and do nothing like the pussy he is.

"Too bad it's illegal. But I guess that never stops the American taxpayer from bending over and taking it in the ass when Israel demands it."

1- US military aid to Israel is spent in the US creating American jobs, much of US aid to Israel is in the form of loan guarantees that do not cost taxpayers a penny unless Israel somehow defaults on the loans, which they don't. So how exactly is the taxpayer getting screwed?
2- The Symington Amendment can be waived by the President if its deemed in US national security interests, as it was and has been for Pakistan since 1979. Pakistan even made nuclear tests, and still the money pours in. The US not only waives the Symington and Glenn amendments for India, they even give India nuclear technology.
3- Israel has never tested a nuclear weapon nor has any evidence been made clear that they procured nuclear materials after the NPT was signed, since all signs point to Israel developing their program before the NPT was signed. So there's no proof of any violation of the Symington Amendment anyway.

"So if someone tells you at gunpoint to leave your home and you decide to throw a rock at them in defiance, the fact that you are now dead is your own fault? Is that correct?"

Palestinians were told to leave by the invading Arab armies in 1948. 20% of Israel is Arab, so tell me how they were forced to leave. On the other hand all Jews in Arab countries were forced to leave at the point of a gun, creating 800,000 refugees (nobody is whining about that though). Firing rockets full of TNT is not a 'rock'. Palestinians were offered a state in 1947 and in 2000, and could have had one any time between 1948-1967. But they didn't want one and don't want one now. Because 'recognition' is just a ruse, what they seek is not recognition but every inch of territory of the old Mandate of Palestine - of which they already have more than 80%.

I don't know why you insist calling Palestinians "the brown people". I would be offended if I was a Palestinian. Please stop doing so.

Israel is not "it". Israel is a country, and a will of the country is dictated by the will of the people that live in it. I, being an Israeli, tell you what Israelis want. You, for some reason, chose some conspiracy theory ("It WANTS territory. By any means necessary.") over what I tell you. If we are going to talk about BELIEFS, we can stop right now. If you want to talk about facts, I will be happy to continue.

I would like to remind you that in 1948 the UN drew the map you are talking about. Six Arab countries decided they don't accept this map, and the day the state of Israel was declared, attacked it. It's the Arab countries that weren't happy about the map of Israel, not Israel.

If Israel wanted territory, it would have keep Sinai - which is twice the size of Israel.

And I am blaming Hamas for the rockets. The rockets are being fired from their sovereign territory (AKA Gaza), and they are to be blamed for it.

Believe it or not, but the blockade is four years old. It began when Gilad Shalit was kidnapped. Until then, there was no blockade. Yes, it wasn't an open border, but that's because of suicide bombers. You know, the people who killed and maimed Israeli civilians by dozens.

Gaza suffers economic and health problems BECAUSE OF HAMAS. Do you know why? That's simple. Hamas main goal is to destroy Israel (as they are stating) and not take care of the Palestinians.

The moment Hamas will stop firing rockets and mortars on civilian population, the moment they will say "we want peace", there will be peace. As simple as that.

I am saying all of this because I live here and I know what's going on in Israel, and know the spirit of things. You, probably, feed only of news and propaganda.

"I would like to remind you that in 1948 the UN drew the map you are talking about. Six Arab countries decided they don't accept this map, and the day the state of Israel was declared, attacked it. It's the Arab countries that weren't happy about the map of Israel, not Israel."

Exactly. The UN *told* the Arab nations what was goignt o happen. Sotle their land and gave it to a group of people they called the nation of Israel. It was bullshit to begin with. Just ask the native American what it feels like to have someone tell you your land is no longer yours.

"That's where you Israeli firsters always shit the bed and it epitomizes your disdain for brown people."

Oh the irony of someone using the slur "Israel firster" and calling Palestinians "brown people" when they aren't even brown, while insinuating that other people are bigots. Arabs are the same race as Jews - Semites. In terms of skin color, they vary for both Israelis and Palestinians. 120,000 some odd Ethiopian Jews live in Israel who are black. Mizrahi Jews (who make up a huge portion of Israeli population) are Middle Eastern by origin, so their skin color to most people living in the Middle East. So this business about 'brown people' is ridiculous.

"Take a look at the map of Israel in 1948 and take a look at it now.

It WANTS territory. By any means necessary."

You have it backwards. Who invaded whom in 1948? Who rejected partition in 1948? Who fought to take over the rest of Israel from 1948-1982 with their fedayeen terrorists? Whose main political movement (Fatah) has as its emblem which shows all of Israel as Palestine? Whose other main political movement (Hamas) claims all of Palestine as an Islamic trust land in which no part can ever be 'surrendered' to non-Muslims?

1 - Israel receives money(loans) and spends it on military hardware for itself. Israel can spend the other 25% on whatever they want. The point here is that the American taxpayer is Israel's enabler. That money should be used for Americans.

2 - Oh...has the president waived the Symington Amendment for Israel? No, he hasn't. because if he does, it acknowledges the nuke program that everyone knows they have and would therefore be subject to IAEA inspections.

3 - It's common knowledge they have them. They've even admitted they do.


@Baskineli - "It's the Arab countries that weren't happy about the map of Israel"

Gee, I wonder why?! Get a clue dude.

"Hamas main goal is to destroy Israel (as they are stating) and not take care of the Palestinians."

Hamas provides for the Palestinians. It is Israel and Israel alone who imprisons them in Gaza.

"Believe it or not, but the blockade is four years old. It began when Gilad Shalit was kidnapped. Until then, there was no blockade. Yes, it wasn't an open border, but that's because of suicide bombers. You know, the people who killed and maimed Israeli civilians by dozens."

Israel broke the cease fire.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/05/world/middleeast/05mideast.html

"The moment Hamas will stop firing rockets and mortars on civilian population, the moment they will say "we want peace", there will be peace. "

And what are you going to do about the settlements that invade Palestinian territory? Hamas must stop firing rockets, but its okay for you to steal their land?

"Arabs are the same race as Jews - Semites"

Many of the Jews that are in power in Israel are Ashkanezi Jews. They are white. They are not semitic. I have not mentioned the word Jew because being a Jew is a religious choice and has nothing to do with the policies of the government of Israel.

There are many more people around the world who practice Judaism and they are content to live away from Palestine, while still supporting the right of the Nation of Israel to exist.

They are wrong to demand this right because they can practice their religion anywhere in the world as many of them do, they do not need a "Homeland" to be Jewish, as a Catholic does not need a homeland to be Christian.

"You have it backwards. Who invaded whom in 1948?"

Two words. Deir Yassin.

"Exactly. The UN *told* the Arab nations what was goignt o happen. Sotle their land and gave it to a group of people they called the nation of Israel. It was bullshit to begin with. Just ask the native American what it feels like to have someone tell you your land is no longer yours."

Most Palestinian Arabs at the time of the partition plan were peasants who lived on land owned by absentee landlords living in other Arab states. Settlers legally bought the land, often at an inflated price, and efforts were made to compensate any landless Arabs. The Peel Commission concluded that claims about Arab 'displacement' were baseless, and that Jewish settlers had bought swampy and uncultivated land (in order to avoid displacing people) from large absentee landowners that wasn't being used.

Most of the rest of the land which was designated for Israel during the partition was state land, directly owned/controlled by the Ottomans and then the British. Most of this was the Negev desert, so it wasn't even arable. Israelis only ended up getting 6% of all arable land in the whole of the mandate of Palestine. But even that was too much for some...

"Hamas provides for the Palestinians"

UNRWA had to suspend aid operations because Hamas kept stealing food and blankets from the UN meant for Gazans in need. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/06/gaza-un-aid-hamas
How is that 'providing' for the Palestinians? It is well known that of the aid delivered to Gazans, Hamas only distributes it to those who support Hamas.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,698766,00.html

"The point here is that the American taxpayer is Israel's enabler. That money should be used for Americans."

The amount of money Israel ends up being allowed to spend on procurement is trivial to the 'American taxpayer', a good deal less than a billion. And anyway what about the aid we send everywhere else, should it all go back to be spent on 'Americans'? How about the money being spent to help Pakistan, which is being used by the ISI to help the Taliban? Why no shrieking about that? How about the billions being spent to help Iraqis? America first, right?

"Oh...has the president waived the Symington Amendment for Israel? No, he hasn't. because if he does, it acknowledges the nuke program that everyone knows they have and would therefore be subject to IAEA inspections."

So what's your point, in the end? There's no proof of any violation of the Symington Amendment. Israel has not tested any nuclear weapons and there's no proof of nuclear material procurement post-NPT. It's believed that Israel's program was completed pre-NPT, and there's no evidence that suggests otherwise. And even if proof was provided, as I said, waivers can be made. So the Symington Amendment is irrelevant.

"Many of the Jews that are in power in Israel are Ashkanezi Jews. They are white. They are not semitic."

Wow, so now you're regurgitating wacko theories from Arthur Koestler? Really? The Semitic origins of Ashkenazi Jews is not disputed by anyone with any scholarly credentials whatsoever. Why are you resorting to these kinds of bizarro racial arguments?

http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/43026_Doron.pdf

"They are wrong to demand this right because they can practice their religion anywhere in the world as many of them do, they do not need a "Homeland" to be Jewish, as a Catholic does not need a homeland to be Christian."

There are dozens of Catholic majority countries in the world, and have been dozens of countries which were avowedly Catholic, to the point of expelling anybody who was not. Jews have been driven out of Europe, the Arab countries, and virtually everywhere they've settled. But there can't have one Jewish majority secular state without people getting violently enraged.

"Two words. Deir Yassin."

Safed massacre, Hebron massacre, Hadassah medical convoy massacre, etc, etc.

"Israel broke the cease fire."

False.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2008/06/25/palestinian_rockets_threaten_truce/?rss_id=Boston+Globe+--+World+News

"The amount of money Israel ends up being allowed to spend on procurement is trivial to the 'American taxpayer', a good deal less than a billion. And anyway what about the aid we send everywhere else, should it all go back to be spent on 'Americans'?"

This is money that is being given to them despite being in violation of the law. Aid given to a country is one thing...aid given to a country that is in violation of law is another. So that money is not trivial.

"So what's your point, in the end? There's no proof of any violation of the Symington Amendment. And even if proof was provided, as I said, waivers can be made. So the Symington Amendment is irrelevant. "

The proof has been provided by Mordechai Vanunu and no waivers have been made. Therefore, it is illegal. You cannot seriously argue that Israel *doesn't* have nukes. It's a foregone conclusion. Olmert indirectly admitted it in 2006.

That is all I have time for right now...

"Hamas must stop firing rockets, but its okay for you to steal their land?"

You're comparing Jews living in the West Bank and Gaza to terrorism? The settlements are not on 'stolen' land, they are mostly on uninhabited land near major Israeli cities. The land that is being settled are in most cases, land where previous settlements of Jews had existed prior to the 1948 war, but were ethnically cleansed (see: the Hebron massacre). In violation of the Mandate of Palestine, Jordan prohibited Jews from living in the West Bank. Furthermore, it is permissible to seize land in a defensive war to prevent future hostilities.

"This is money that is being given to them despite being in violation of the law."

It's not in violation of the law. There's no evidence whatsoever that Israel procured nuclear material after the implementation of the NPT. Read the actual amendment. The amendment only applies to transfers of nuclear enrichment material that occurred after August 4, 1977. Since Israel's nuclear program was complete well prior to that, the military aid is not in violation of the law.

"Therefore, it is illegal. You cannot seriously argue that Israel *doesn't* have nukes. It's a foregone conclusion. Olmert indirectly admitted it in 2006."

I'm not arguing Israel doesn't have nukes (although Olmert did not "admit" to having nukes). I'm saying the law effects transfers on or after 1977, so it doesn't apply in Israel's case. The transfers occurred much earlier.

"I have not mentioned the word Jew because being a Jew is a religious choice and has nothing to do with the policies of the government of Israel."

"They are wrong to demand this right because they can practice their religion anywhere in the world as many of them do, they do not need a "Homeland" to be Jewish, as a Catholic does not need a homeland to be Christian."

Which only shows how little you know and understand. Being a Jew has nothing to do with religion. About 40% of the Jews in Israel are secular. I am a Jew and I am not religious.

"Even critics of the barrier say it is working, as the McClaskey link points out."

I didn't say it wasn't, but you missed my point (which I admit was not clearly laid out). Which is that while the number of dead Israelis has decreased, the number of attempted attacks (in spite of the much higher rate of failure) has increased dramatically. More people are willing to try and become suicide bombers. I consider that a failure. The fruits of that failure have not been seen these last three or four years, but they are coming.

"This isn't even true. Even if it were, this is moving the goal posts. You claimed earlier that Oslo led to unprecedented peace and calm"

Check your own link again. The number of fatalities from attacks in 1998 was lower than it had been since the mid-eighties, before the start of the first Intifadah. I didn't say the attacks stopped overnight. And frankly, considering the degree to which the Israelis undermined Arafat's credibility at every turn (by building more settlements, opening the tunnel under al-Aqsa, refusing to prosecute Jewish settlers who killed Palestinians and destroyed crops in the occupied territories, etc.), even this accomplishment was a small miracle. Arafat's ability to control other factions was further complicated by the fact that under Oslo, 59% of the West Bank was still under Israeli control (Area C), and the areas the PA *did* control were divided up into over 200 pieces by various Jewish-only settlements and bypass roads which Arafat's police could not cross easily.

"Hamas leaders have admitted that they carried out attacks on orders from Arafat, at the very least in 2000"

One Hamas guy (not several as you claim) makes a statement ten years after the alleged fact, and that's hard proof? First of all, all the Hamas leaders of 2000 are now dead, and we have no idea where this source got his information from, whether they were being truthful to him, whether he is being truthful, or if he is knowingly or unknowingly making a false claim for god-knows-what motivation (rehabilitate Arafat's reputation among Palestinians? Increase credibility of Hamas? Who knows).

"How does one negotiate with groups that reject negotiations on principle?"

That's a good question. How are the Palestinians supposed to negotiate with Israel, when Israel does little or nothing to rein in Jewish terrorists who routinely murder Palestinians in the occupied territories and breaks every promise it makes?

"This 'report' is 14 years old and comes from a Holocaust denying website that calls Israelis "Zionazis"."

There are plenty of newer reports on the subject, I picked the first or second google hit just for convenience's sake. As for 'Holocaust denial', the link you provided (13 years old! Not that it matters, but I do find it amusing) simply pointed out that Pius XII wasn't a Nazi stooge as people like you try to portray him and in fact the Church saved many Jews from the Holocaust (this page quotes Yad Vashem as saying 860,000). Throwing around the "Holocaust Denial" card so flippantly cheapens the word and is a great disservice to its victims.

"So the US is beefing up a key military rival of Israel in the Middle East. Israeli diplomats can't cut American military aid to Israel, so I don't know what you're talking about here."

The point is that Egypt *isn't* a military rival of Israel, and the massive American aid to Egypt is one of the main reasons why. And while you're correct that Israel doesn't legally have any say so over aid to Egypt (I assume this is what you meant to say), we all know that with a single phone call to AIPAC the massive pro-Israel lobby can swing into action and get just about whatever it wants:

http://original.antiwar.com/avnery/2008/01/08/israels-white-bird/

"http://www.meforum.org/301/focus-on-hamas-the-plos-friend-or-foe"

This article is also 14 years old, self-contradictory on many counts, inaccurate on others, and written before 1998 when the dramatic drop in terrorist attacks occurred. It is also authored by the president of the ZOA - and you accuse *me* of having biased sources.

"You misunderstand what I mean."

That's because your comment was ambiguous. And untrue no matter which way you interpret it (I pointed out that Israel has received military aid from many European countries).

"People can pretend Saudi military capability is ring-fenced for fighting Iran, and a whole slew of fighter planes, radar technology, and other goodies doesn't help them in overall defense. We can also pretend that Saudi Arabia didn't specifically request advanced radar because of the impending sale of F-35s to Israel. We can also pretend that Saudi Arabia doesn't financing anti-Israeli terrorism (and Wahhabi terrorism around the world), including Hamas, and that we're giving them $60 bln worth of "outdated" military"

There we have it, folks. Putin thinks the United States of America is secretly out to kill all Jews.

"Where did you come up with this number 'tens of thousands'? Made it up? "

No, jackass. You forgot to count all the Palestinians killed by Israel in the first and second Nakbas, as well as all the Palestinians killed by Israeli terrorists over the years that aren't included in any of your categories.

"Syria slaughtered 20,000 Arabs in three weeks in 1982.
Why no shouts of 'genocide' or comparisons to Nazis there? "

Because Syria didn't do it on my dime, Hafez al-Asad never claimed to be a great moral leader, and I don't hear anyone defending it here. Ironically, Syria (as well as nearly all of the Arab states) was allied with your buddies in the Soviet Union during the Cold War when that and five of the six Arab-Israeli wars went down. I note how quickly you've gotten to the fourth and final step in hasbara, "everything sucks":

http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/Voices.php/2009/10/15/holy-hasbara-how-to-make-the-case-for-is-1

Here is a good article clarifying being Jewish with regards to race vs. culture vs. religion.

http://www.jewfaq.org/judaism.htm

The way I see it is that you've got Isreal, which is a mostly Jewish state run by a bunch of mad intolerant arseholes... and then you've got Palestine, which is a mostly Muslim quasi-state run by a bunch of mad intolerant arseholes... And both sides spend the vast majority of their time creating new and exciting ways to make life hell for each other.

Why anyone gives a damn about either side is beyond me.

@Draugnar
This is a good article indeed.

@Octavious
That's an easy way out. Israel is not run by mad and intolerant arseholes, since it is democracy, and the government changes atleast every four years (in the last 20 years it was less than that, on average). Most people in PLO are not mad and intolerant arseholes too. Hamas, however, is BASED on the idea of being mad and intolerant, and I will quote their manifesto, that consists of 10 principles of faith (quoting some of them):

1. Hamas swears to conduct a holy war over Palestine against the Jews until Allah's victory is achieved.
4. By command of the Prophet, Muslims might fight the Jews and kill them wherever they are.
5. Hamas strives to set up an entity wherein Allah is the highest purpose, the Koran is the law, jihad (holy war waged on behalf of Islam as a religious duty it its means, and dying for the sake of Allah is the noblest wish.
6. Palestine is a holy Islamic entity until the end of time. Therefore, it is non-negotiable and no one can give up any part of it.
8.Hamas opposes any kind of international talks or negotiations as well as any possible peace arrangement. Sovereignty over the land is strictly a religious matter and conducting negotiation over it means giving up some measure of control by (Islam's) believers.
9. The Jews control the media and the world financial institutions. By means of revolution and war, and organizations, such as the Masons, Communists, capitalists, Zionists, Rotary, Lions, B'nai B'rith, and the like, they undermine human society as a whole in order to destroy it. By their evil corruption, they try to gain domination of the world by such institutions as the United Nations and its Security Council. More details of their iniquity be found in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
10. Hamas opposes any secular state the PLO would seek to create in Palestine, since by definition it would be anti-Islamic. On the other hand, if the PLO would adopt Islam and follow its flag, then all of (the PLO's) members would become freedom fighters who would light the fire to consume the enemy.

@Tolstoy
If you still can somehow defend Hamas (who are religious fanatics) after reading this manifesto, then I have no idea how to make you understand the situation.

@ Tolstoy

"More people are willing to try and become suicide bombers. I consider that a failure. The fruits of that failure have not been seen these last three or four years, but they are coming."

Coming from where? Israel has had zero, count it - zero, suicide bombings for two years straight - 2009 & 2010. How is that a failure?
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iz_ENdhBuyYwGj22vRqs0uexRT4g?docId=CNG.f4fa510e3a42ad81ea91bfde88768880.a11
And the other article said attempts had increased in 2007. But I highly doubt there have been increases in 2009 and 2010, considering the overall decline in guerilla activity. For the life of me I can't find data on suicide attempts for these years. But I would like to see the numbers.

Now, there are concerns that Hamas is building up its smuggling networks - which is why the blockade is essential for Israeli security. But no one can say zero attacks is a failure.

"Check your own link again. The number of fatalities from attacks in 1998 was lower than it had been since the mid-eighties, before the start of the first Intifadah. I didn't say the attacks stopped overnight."

Naturally you pick the one year attacks were low and claim that this was due to Oslo, but yet in 1994 there were 73 killed by Palestinian terrorists, in 1995 there were 52 killed, and in 1996 there were 92 killed, in 1997 there were 29 killed. How long do we need before the timeline becomes longer than "overnight"? The point is the 5 years after Oslo was a period of unprecedented violence, not unprecedented peace. And when you look closer, you'll find that it wasn't as if there were fewer attacks in 1998, they just weren't as successful in killing people. But according to your logic, if they don't succeed in killing dozens then that equals "Oslo calm".

"And frankly, considering the degree to which the Israelis undermined Arafat's credibility at every turn (by building more settlements, opening the tunnel under al-Aqsa, refusing to prosecute Jewish settlers who killed Palestinians and destroyed crops in the occupied territories, etc.), even this accomplishment was a small miracle."

So we go from Oslo led to calm to excuse making for why Oslo didn't lead to calm. Oh it's the Israelis fault that Palestinian terror increased after Oslo, is it? Israel undermined Arafat's "credibility", it had nothing to do with the fact that Arafat refused to crack down on Hamas and even signed deals with them, PLO police even hired them to go murder people for 'immorality'. It had nothing to do with the fact that PLO officials bragged about the cooperative relationship between Hamas and the PLO, and praised Hamas and PIJ for their attacks. But let's look at your claims.

"by building more settlements"

Oslo didn't prohibit or even limit settlements, so what does this have to do with anything?

"opening the tunnel under al-Aqsa,"

Why aren't Jews aren't allowed to research their history regarding the Western Wall and the Temple Mount, one their holiest sites if not the holiest site? Why is the Wafq allowed to build mosque after mosque on the Temple Mount during the 1990s, but that's not a 'provocation'. The Israelis had been doing archaeological digs since the 1960s around the Temple Mount, but this only became an issue in the 1990s, after which Israel prohibited digging. But this has not prevented the Palestinians from digging around the Temple Mount and mosque area and discarding Jewish artifacts.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3362223,00.html

"refusing to prosecute Jewish settlers who killed Palestinians and destroyed crops"

This sounds made up. Any proof of 'refusal' to prosecute? I have heard of Palestinians routinely getting away with destroying crops, however.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/palestinian-who-destroy-settlers-crops-must-be-prosecuted-too-1.326496

"Throwing around the "Holocaust Denial" card so flippantly cheapens the word and is a great disservice to its victims."

You evidently didn't bother to read the link. "Researchers at Israel’s Yad Vashem memorial have admitted the new Polish figures were correct. This new evidence, if true, would cut in half the Zionists’ original claim that six million Jews had died under the Nazi regime. It would also raise the questions of, “Why did the Zionists grossly exaggerate the original numbers of Jewish victims?”

It goes on to minimize the Holocaust in lieu of supposed Soviet crimes, and does its best to associate Jews with Communism. Hmm, sounds familiar!

And I'm sure you care about the victims, considering last we debated you claimed that Soviet victims of German einsatzgruppen got what they deserved, eastern European collaboration with Hitler was understandable because the USSR was more aggressive, and denied Polish pogroms even occurred.

"The point is that Egypt *isn't* a military rival of Israel, and the massive American aid to Egypt is one of the main reasons why"

This makes little sense. The US is helping Egypt achieve military parity with Israel, but this is evidence that Egypt is not a military rival? What?

"we all know that with a single phone call to AIPAC the massive pro-Israel lobby can swing into action and get just about whatever it wants:"

Any minute now you'll be screaming about "ZOG". AIPAC gets whatever it wants, like that spectacular arms deal with the Saudis, AIPAC just loved that.

"This article is also 14 years old, self-contradictory on many counts, inaccurate on others, and written before 1998 when the dramatic drop in terrorist attacks occurred. It is also authored by the president of the ZOA - and you accuse *me* of having biased sources."

'Dramatic drop' in deaths you mean. I can't respond to vague unexplained criticisms, but forgive me if I don't take your word for it that it's inaccurate.

"There we have it, folks. Putin thinks the United States of America is secretly out to kill all Jews."

This response doesn't even make any sense. How do you get that from what I wrote? I was claiming that a Saudi military build-up can be used for more purposes than just fighting Iran, as is evident by the fact that the Saudis wanted planes with radars for the specific purpose of having a leg-up on Israel. You claim Jews control our foreign policy but I'm the conspiracy theorist, I love it.

"And untrue no matter which way you interpret it (I pointed out that Israel has received military aid from many European countries)."

Many? You claimed the Germans sold the Israelis two submarines.
But yes, the whole of the EU sold Israel a whopping $200 mil worth of arms in 2009, mostly in small arms with France being the biggest supplier. But considering you didn't think much about a $60 bln deal between Saudi and the US, this shouldn't impress you.
http://euobserver.com/9/27359

"No, jackass. You forgot to count all the Palestinians killed by Israel in the first and second Nakbas, as well as all the Palestinians killed by Israeli terrorists over the years that aren't included in any of your categories."

By "2nd Nakba" I assume you mean the 1967 war, in which no Palestinians fought and thus they weren't participants. In 1948 the Palestinians fled as the invading Arab armies came in, but let's be generous to your 'argument' and say 3,000 were killed (as wikipedia does). Either way, it doesn't justify the term "10s of thousands", especially since these casualties would never had occurred if the multiple Arab armies hadn't invaded.

"Because Syria didn't do it on my dime"

So this isn't about your supposed concern for poor oppressed Arabs, good to know, Israel is supposedly singled out for your bitching because of US military aid. No bitching about Colombia or any other repressive state that gets US military aid, just Israel. The US didn't provide military aid to the USSR, yet there's no end of exaggeration by you about their 'crimes'.

"Ironically, Syria (as well as nearly all of the Arab states) was allied with your buddies in the Soviet Union during the Cold War when that and five of the six Arab-Israeli wars went down"

Is that the best you can do? Don't look at your single minded attacks on Israeli "Nazism", because the Soviets supported Syria? Let me guess this means that no rightwing American can criticize the Pakistani butchery of the Bengalis in 1971, because the US government supported that 'effort' to the hilt. Syria responded to Soviet 'support' by slaughtering Syrian Communists at their whim for being 'Soviet agents'. Syria hated the United States so much they were members of the US-led coalition to destroy Iraq in 1990-1991. And the Arab states in general were apoplectic about the Soviet defense of Afghanistan from the CIA-backed Mujahadeen.

"Arafat's ability to control other factions was further complicated by the fact that under Oslo, 59% of the West Bank was still under Israeli control (Area C)"

The PA was given total control of all the major urban centers and surrounding areas of the West Bank in 1995 , so this excuse doesn't hold. Most of the population of the West Bank was/is under "Area A" (full Palestinian civil and security control, no Israelis allowed).

This is some very good commentary, so thank you all for the good discussion, I've enjoyed reading it.

@Bask - I'd like to believe what you say, for you mention many points that I agree with, but please don't be offended that I take everything you say with a grain of salt. You're doing a tough job, talking for all of Israel, and naturally I expect a slight bias both because you're Israeli and speaking for people other than yourself. But I hope you do not take offense.

I personally think that both sides are at fault. Most recently, I don't understand why Israel didn't extend the building freeze and keep negotiations going. It just doesn't make sense to me. That is just one of many stupid decisions the Israeli leadership has made.

As for the blockade mentioned earlier - you don't try to break a blockade and expect a non-reaction. They were trying to get a reaction from the Israelis and succeeded in doing so. Any claims of humanitarian aid are a load of b-s. yes, there was aid on those ships, but also contraband materials as well. Practically speaking, you don't attack commandos boarding your ship and expect not to be shot. Common sense.

That being said, both sides have to be willing to compromise a bit more. Great steps have been made, but a few more are needed to achieve peace.

P.S. - Gaza can be leveled for all I care. Fuck Hamas

"I don't understand why Israel didn't extend the building freeze and keep negotiations going. It just doesn't make sense to me. That is just one of many stupid decisions the Israeli leadership has made."

Israel did not stop negotiations. The PLO did. They made the end to 'settlements' a pre-condition for continued talks, while Israel has continued to call for talks. The problem for them is Jerusalem is not a 'settlement', so it's a spurious demand.

@ Baskineli
"Israel is not run by mad and intolerant arseholes, since it is democracy, and the government changes atleast every four years "
Just because it is a democracy doesn't make it nice. There have been plenty of elected madmen over the years in most democratic nations, but Isreal has managed to achieve far more than its fair share. When it comes down to it the people get the leaders they deserve. In Palestine they elected Hamas which, as you posted, are truly insane. In Isreal they've elected yet another load of the sort of people who believe the best way to pacify a virtual warzone is by mass building bungalows and filling them with the most hard line nationalist families they can find.

I'm not really for an easy way out. I am just shouting from the rooftops so that both sides easily understand that I was never "in" in the first place. Decades of good natured (and probably a fair bit of bad natured) foriegn help has achieved absolutely nothing over the years, so it's high time we just let them get on with it.

That Jesus bloke had the right idea. Shame it never really caught on

FREE PALESTINE!

WOW, my favorite communist is pro-Israeli. You don't know how disappointed I am in you Putin.

maybe it is a better idea to make a different forum for this :)
here is the longest post i've ever seen without information about a game, well done putin :)
i am a really slow reader and i don't want to be busy with it whole days, but i think you people should look at how much the governments or whoever are making the wrong decisions (i don't get who is doing the wrong things in your opinions, but there are enough civilians there that doesn't want that war and just live in peace...) can do about it..

@steephie - I know English isn't your first language. So where are you from/what is your first language?

Sorry for the long posts, I quote people so I'm not accused of claiming they said things they never said.

"You don't know how disappointed I am in you Putin."

My fellow leftists need to wake up on this question. It is comforting that I've mostly been debating rightwingers on this issue here.