Forum
A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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StevenC. (1047 D(B))
01 Oct 09 UTC
Operation Unthinkable....
Could it have worked? Could it have ever been feasible? If so, could it have wiped out Communism and prevented or ended the Cold War?
33 replies
Open
Gallando (255 D)
03 Oct 09 UTC
Live game for experienced players (no newbies)
Please post whoever is online now and interested in joining a private live game.
I guess a fine rule to avoid multiaccounters would be that you must have finished some games. Anybody?
8 replies
Open
DJEcc24 (246 D)
03 Oct 09 UTC
One mroe person for a live game!
4 replies
Open
Carpysmind (1423 D)
03 Oct 09 UTC
Game Glitches
Game; http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=13648&msgCountry=Russia&rand=35162#chatboxanchor

Seems to be experiencing several ‘internal’ glitches including the rotation back a round, messages appearing then opened and reappearing unopened, messages not posting, etc.
0 replies
Open
NU LYVE GAYM!
We need three more!
gameID=13909
1 reply
Open
DJEcc24 (246 D)
03 Oct 09 UTC
Live game tonight =) you know you want to
game name is i've Got a Feelin
i will post the link soon. Bet size ten. WTA. phase length ten minutes.
5 replies
Open
denis (864 D)
03 Oct 09 UTC
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=13909
Now lets get a live game join join join
PS there is no multi accounting in this one
4 replies
Open
kestasjk (95 DMod(P))
30 Sep 09 UTC
Microsoft Security Essentials
In a nutshell its a free anti-virus from Microsoft, just moved out of beta. A slimmed down version of OneCare, and its getting good reviews. Hopefully now Symantec will finally die

http://www.microsoft.com/security_essentials/
25 replies
Open
bigbirdisback (0 DX)
02 Oct 09 UTC
Trying to start a live game up
gameID=13908

Join now.
14 replies
Open
airborne (154 D)
02 Oct 09 UTC
1700 Variant
http://www.worldleadersthegame.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=221&p=1204#p1204 Done at last
2 replies
Open
Dunecat (5899 D)
01 Oct 09 UTC
New gunboat game named Dune: Coriolis Wind.
202 point bet, 1 day phases, anonymous gunboat. gameID=13873

Come play!
14 replies
Open
johnpothen (0 DX)
03 Oct 09 UTC
anybody up for a live game?
im looking for a live game free of multiaccounting. is anyone interested? cheaters stay away.
0 replies
Open
Crazyter (1335 D(G))
02 Oct 09 UTC
Friday Night Live
Game Starts right Now!

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=13900
36 replies
Open
tilMletokill (100 D)
02 Oct 09 UTC
Second Try at a Live Game
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=13902
20 mins remaining
10 min phases and 10 point buyin
2 spots left
3 replies
Open
tilMletokill (100 D)
02 Oct 09 UTC
What Another Fu34ing Live Game
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=13900
4 replies
Open
Crazyter (1335 D(G))
02 Oct 09 UTC
Sign up Now for Tomorrow's Live Game
Fri PM game - we need 5 more names!!!

10 min phases PPSC how much do you want to beet?
36 replies
Open
Babak (26982 D(B))
02 Oct 09 UTC
Kestas - A request
Kestas - would it be possible for you to change the percentage formula on our profile pages so that 'playing' games are not included as part of our game stat percentiles?
6 replies
Open
Articus (224 D)
02 Oct 09 UTC
One more time, A live game
30 minute phases, gameID=13894, 30 minute join time, this time we'll have enough. :D
5 replies
Open
spyman (424 D(G))
02 Oct 09 UTC
Something weird is happening
I wrote a long message to an ally tonight...
12 replies
Open
jabumblepoonus (100 D)
02 Oct 09 UTC
Join Got high, 30 minute turns
do it now!
0 replies
Open
fortknox (2059 D)
30 Sep 09 UTC
Xbox360/Xbox Live?
Anyone want to share Xbox Live ID's? It is more fun to play online games with those you know, right?
16 replies
Open
Articus (224 D)
02 Oct 09 UTC
It's Alive! ...Game: It's a live game.
30 minute phases, 25 minutes left to join, gameID=13893, need 3 more.
5 replies
Open
RebelliousStoner (100 D)
02 Oct 09 UTC
let's get some pie!
30 minute phases, 30 minute joining time, join it!
5 replies
Open
rhydon (3098 D)
02 Oct 09 UTC
Please unpause game.
Austria just needed a pause through Thursday, and it's friday now. Please unpause the game.

http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=13137#gamePanel
1 reply
Open
jmo1121109 (3812 D)
02 Oct 09 UTC
BUG
I am unable to send personal or global messages in any of my current games.
2 replies
Open
Thucydides (864 D(B))
01 Oct 09 UTC
Will Smith is Scientologist: Discuss
Details inside
14 replies
Open
Invictus (240 D)
02 Oct 09 UTC
Deodand
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=13880
24 hours, 20 D, points per center

Anyone know what it means? Easily my favorite obsolete legal term.
8 replies
Open
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
30 Sep 09 UTC
GFDT Round 2 done
Just letting Llama know.

Results as I make them inside...
27 replies
Open
airborne (154 D)
30 Sep 09 UTC
Favorite Author?
MIne would have to be either Harry Turtledove or Robert Cormier
74 replies
Open
vamosrammstein (757 D(B))
24 Sep 09 UTC
Dr. Death
Dr. Death, or Kavorkian as his real name is, spoke at a local college a few days ago, so I'm wondering what some of your opinions are on him and what he did.

For those of you who won't know, Kavorkian was engaging in physician assisted suicide, and he was imprisoned a few years back, and he's out now.
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giapeep (100 D)
25 Sep 09 UTC
That is just not true za...
giapeep (100 D)
25 Sep 09 UTC
I wonder Za, when did you get a chance to do a servey of every person who committed suicide?

There are worse things than death. Suffocating slowly while your lungs fill with fluid for one. And morphine a) does not work on all pain, it temporarily makes you care less, and the longer on is on it the less effective it is and the more likely it will kill you. And it absconds with your mind -- anyone who has had a morphine dream will tell you they are not all all pleasant.

I for one would rather not leave my body full stoned out of my mind. A nice heavy sedative with with a margarita chaser.

I for one would appreciate the compassionate care of a doctor who will end my suffering should a I become terminally ill.

Again, I would not decide this for anyone but myself.
Friendly Sword (636 D)
25 Sep 09 UTC
Lets say you have a terminal disease.

Not only is this disease going to leave you crippled and in so much constant pain that only by drugging yourself into a state of oblivion can you fully relieve it, but this disease is also going to eat your mind.

Yes, slowly by slowly you are going to crazy. First you lose short term memory, then observational ability, then critical thinking. Soon you recognize no-one, and the mind that once defined you is nearly unrecognizable.

Is this preferable to a death *you* choose?

Is there no situation where the state should accept someone's right to end thier own life to avoid hell on earth?

Counselling is something that should be provided to all depressed people, and suicide should only be something chosen by and administered to the self (with help by the doctor). But to say that you know that a life is always worth living in every case is bullshit.

Life is sacred, perhaps, (if you swing that way), but not allowing someone to escape is one of the most inhumane things I can concieve of in this world.
I just love idiotic, indefensible statements like this:
"EVERY person who has commited (sic) suicide would change the past if they had the chance."
"When people get pregnant without aforethrought (sic) they usually just abort."

Zaza, the idea of a discussion is to actually discuss, to back up your 2 dimensional statements with rational thought and/or facts.
giapeep (100 D)
25 Sep 09 UTC
"Two dimensional statement," well put Dingleberry Jones, though I think this kind might just be one, flat with a lack of real understanding.
Ivo_ivanov (7545 D)
25 Sep 09 UTC
A century ago the world had a similar issue with condoms. Some people and religious groups still have. Because all life is sacred ... but sacrifice is ok ... and murder can be also ... if done for the 'greater good'.

You may believe whatever you want, but nothing gives you the right to tell me what to do with my life. Unless you think your belief system is the only one relevant.

Kevorkian may be a freak, but assisted suicide is ok.
kestasjk (95 DMod(P))
25 Sep 09 UTC
I don't see any non-religious reason euthanasia should be banned, except that it might be forced/implied/people might feel obliged. As long it's made sure that can't happen I don't think he should be prosecuted
Draugnar (0 DX)
25 Sep 09 UTC
Kestas, Kevorkian assists suicides, something entirely different from euthanasia. I think you mean to support assisted suicide, not euthenasia. Euthanasia is the "putting down" of another to stop their suffereing, but nothing about euthanasia requires their approval. You euthanize a pet that is suffering, but you better not euthanize a human being in a coma just because you think they won't recover. Please don't confuse the two like the media does all the time.
Bazin (527 D)
26 Sep 09 UTC
Draugnar, are you sure that Kevorkian didn't actually carry out the act of killing his patients? If he did, that's Euthanasia.

My understanding (and the literature that I've read backs this up) is that Assisted Suicide is giving the means to an individual to kill themselves, whereas Euthanasia is when a third party commits the act.
ottovanbis (150 DX)
26 Sep 09 UTC
It doesn't matter in the moral sense because morals are a bunch of religious/"spiritual" bullshit used to control peoples temptations and emotions. If a person wants to commit suicide laws/ the government should not be able to stop them. There is no real choice anymore though, just the illusion of choice so it is not surprising to me that it is deemed "unethical" and "immoral" nonchalantly and put on the no-no list. Shouldn't people be able to make choices for themselves? You guys seem to be mostly (with a few exceptions) brainwashed by societal standards. You are conformists. From an atheists standpoint, and even more a newly established/growing existenstialist, this is a funny thread though. I love it when people think their arguments are morally superior, or that there is a God from which to derive these morals... Bring the hate
Draugnar (0 DX)
26 Sep 09 UTC
@Bazin - I was mistaken. A little research shows Kevorkian also performed euthanasia.
Romans 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

1 Corinthians 10:31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God.

Genesis 1:26-27 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
Law is put into place to guide us. To punish us when we step outside of our boundaries. Politics state: Suicide is politically correct with the right premises. We should look to God for the law. God clearly states: Suicide is wrong.

Yes, I am a conformist you may say. But someday you'll see these conformists are right.
Draugnar (0 DX)
26 Sep 09 UTC
Eclesiates - to everything there is a season. A time to every purpose under heaven.

When the writers of the Bible put their inspirations on permanent record, the life span of the typical human was significantly shorter and slowly debilitating disease killed quicker because they didn't have modern medicine. This is not some depressed people killing themselves. These are terminally ill people suffering horribly with no quality of life. Not letting them die is cruel.

I suppose you also think the earth is flat and that heaven is above and hell below. Well, the earth is round and if you go far enough down, you come back up on the opposite side of the world, so I doubt hell is the molten core of earth.

You can't take ancient man's interpretations literally. Mankind didn't have the intellect 6000 years ago that we have today.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
26 Sep 09 UTC
Let me put it like this:

How do you know when someone is "terminally ill?"

How do you know that someone asking to be killed is thinking straight?

How do you know that if this person stayed alive, they might yet have something important to say or do that even they themselves would have been glad to be alive for?

And more importantly, how does this patient know any of those things either?

Furthermore, how do you know that legalized assisted suicide would not lead down a slippery slope of euthanasia, or perhaps closet euthanasia (i.e. strongly suggesting to the patient that they consent to suicide, or the patient thinking they are a burden on their families... basically all the wrong reasons)?
vamosrammstein (757 D(B))
26 Sep 09 UTC
@ ZaZa
Times change. As Draug said, back when the average lifespan was maybe half what it is today, and disease was rampant, I could see the need for saying life is sacred. However, disease is NOT rampant today, and the average lifespan is (following the pattern of past history) incredibly long.

If you were diagnosed with a terminal disease that would slowly rot your body and mind, all the while causing you intolerable pain so that you were drugged on morphine simply to be able to do anything but writhe in agony, but you were going to be kept alive in this way for 10 years, would you want to be alive in that manner?
Would you say that your morphine infested bedirdden lifestyle would be one that god would be proud of you for living?
What if your morphine was cut, and you really did have to spend 10 years writhing in agony, would you still be quoting the bible saying that committing suicide (or allowing somebody else to help you with it) would be a one way ticket to hell?
If the answer is yes then I have nothing more to say to you, and if the answer is no, then perhaps you posess some sense of logic after all.
vamosrammstein (757 D(B))
26 Sep 09 UTC
@ Thucy, in reality, there isn't really any way to judge that on a broad scale, as there is no way to be certain that anybody is ever thinking straight.
As for the person in question maybe having something to live for, that is a consequence that you accept when you ask to be killed.
It is true that someone might be terminally ill right now, but the cure could pop out tomorrow and they would be well again.

Basically, shouldn't that person be the final judge on what they want to do with their life?
Ultimately people will find a way to do what they want to do, so shouldn't we provide a secure and controlled environment for them to die in, should they choose to accept it?
ottovanbis (150 DX)
26 Sep 09 UTC
And the Bible was written by humans, not God, so there's a bit of bias there people... There is no God so quote the Bible as much as you want but you would just be spewing more brainwashing garbage
ottovanbis-And the Bible was written by humans, not God, so there's a bit of bias there people... There is no God so quote the Bible as much as you want but you would just be spewing more brainwashing garbage

That is your belief and is a completely separate argument. Besides that, the Bible is considered as one of the best book to read considering morals. Yes, it has conflicting opinions but they aren't actually biased opinions.

Times change. Yes. But the importance of life does not. I don't think this needs much explaining. There were, possibly not as many, terminal diseases which inflict major pain and sufferring.

vamorsrammstein-If you were diagnosed with a terminal disease that would slowly rot your body and mind, all the while causing you intolerable pain so that you were drugged on morphine simply to be able to do anything but writhe in agony, but you were going to be kept alive in this way for 10 years, would you want to be alive in that manner?

Yes, I have something you don't. I have a God that is looking out for me. Or as you would say it, I believe there is a God looking out for me. Either way, I have a hope. I have something to wake up to every day. God is my mighty fortress.

vamorsrammstein-Would you say that your morphine infested bedirdden lifestyle would be one that god would be proud of you for living?

Would God be proud of me giving up and initiating my own death? Certainly not. Glory would be found in living it out and still praising God for all the blessings He has given me.

vamorsrammstein-What if your morphine was cut, and you really did have to spend 10 years writhing in agony, would you still be quoting the bible saying that committing suicide (or allowing somebody else to help you with it) would be a one way ticket to hell?

First off, I do not believe by suicide you go to hell. Don't assume my beliefs. I believe that if you believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins you will have salvation. Why someone with the hope of this salvation would commit suicide-I do not know.

I'd rather have someone live through pain and agony so I, and other Christians as well, can share the good news of Jesus Christ to them. It would be cruel though to allow them to end their life and go to hell.

Draugnar- "I suppose you also think the earth is flat and that heaven is above and hell below. Well, the earth is round and if you go far enough down, you come back up on the opposite side of the world, so I doubt hell is the molten core of earth."

Don't insult your own intelligence by trying to askew mine. Heaven and hell are apart from the universe. They cannot be found in this universe. They say Heaven is above and Hell is below to cachet the state of souls.
ottovanbis (150 DX)
26 Sep 09 UTC
ok zaza...you keep thinking that... morality is relative...and have you read the bible... i have and it is the biggest piece of shit i have ever had the misfortune of reading. i enjoy humpty dumpty to provide "moral comfort" more than the bible. as far as bias goes... everything that is non-factual has a bias (and facts are often subjective themselves). ergo, of course, because the Bible was written by humans and is not the "word of 'God'" it must have bias and is does. It is mysogionistic and racist, and it is a fairytale. The concept of morality was created for the same reason as the idea of a soul, to provide comfort against a truly uncertain world full of "evils."
ottovanbis (150 DX)
26 Sep 09 UTC
Sir or Madame, you are just like the millions of other crusading Christians, self-assured and self-righteous, who make me want to vomit. Not just because the thought of your belief system disgusts me for its massively flawed contradictions and faults, but because you are so close-minded (arguably just as much as I am). Do you question anything? I am assuming of course that you were raised a "good Christian" and brainwashed at a young age to accept nothing else but your own dogma. That would not surprise me, and if this is the case, I will not discuss with you further as there is no point at all...
ottovanbis (150 DX)
26 Sep 09 UTC
Read between the lines, hell (not the poetic usage of this imaginary place of God-loving warmth), just read the lines of the Bible and the spewings of religious fanatics, and maybe you can cure your blindness, but I believe that this is impossible as this reverie of yours is a medicine and a poison that you have become addicted to. Then again reality is also relative so just as much as you believe in a God, I do not, and we are both correct (not "can" or "might be" but "are," but only as sure as you are of your own existence).
ottovanbis (150 DX)
26 Sep 09 UTC
ooooohhh.... just read the remaining portion of your wonderful response zaza... if you don't believe committing suicide gives you a straight-way ticket to HELL, then why wouldn't one want to commit suicide ASAP to reap the rewards of HEAVEN that much more quickly? Your logic is rather holy (pardon the pun)
ottovanbis (150 DX)
26 Sep 09 UTC
Q.E.D.
giapeep (100 D)
26 Sep 09 UTC
Thucy,

(Note: You use the word patient, forget that. The term is only and ever human being)

This is what I have come to understand through being with other's in their life and death struggles and from living through a few of my own.

First I must give you my respect, as I see in you courage. You are asking so many hard questions to which there are few definitive answers. I think, the best answers to life and death questions are usually private and personal, and for which in our individual context we must come to know only for ourselves. Society creates laws about these things to both help us contain what understanding we have and to keep us from making rash decisions; these laws change in the course of new information, we hope...

The person isn't asking to be killed, no one would ask for that -- well, probably one who is being tortured day after day after day... They are asking to be released from a suffering worse than death, knowing that the only release from this suffering is death, which is an inevitable reality of life. I know this is very hard to imagine, it is supposed to be; our mind--survival mechanism numero uno--protects us from such awareness.

With the advance of human science, terminal Illness is measurable. The one with the death sentence will fight it, likely, hopefully. But as every good general knows, there is a moment of realization when it is clear the battle is lost. I don't think that to continue to fight to only extend the suffering is something we have a right to choose for another.

I assure you that when death is staring you in the face, often our choices can be seen quite clearly (even if not , as vamos points out, "straight"), even when we are loaded with pain killers.

We don't know if the human being who is suffering has more to contribute, they, however, do. I assure you, the will to live is powerfully strong. Consider this bit of information, for those who are old and whose bodies are failing them, they will hang on to see a baby born, a couple married, or one last Christmas, and they die almost predictably soon there after; once they know that the reason they hung on a bit longer is safe, they let go, the terminally ill can be different in this respect as it is not necessarily a total body failur but a leathal failur of a bodily system that puts them in so much suffering.

I think that for one to realize for themselves that it is time to die is an experience too profound to be proven to anyone. The body and mind know more together than our combined consciousness has yet found a way to express. I call it instinct.

Having lived through the experience of life threatening illness and all the pain and suffering that goes with it, from my own perspective, I have learned that our instincts will tell us if/when we can let go, as we fight to survive, if we can, and as we feel all the things we have learned about the preciousness of life; as we find every fear we have ever felt about "hell" and damnation and nothingness, and as we list every failure and every success in the hopes that our tallies come out at least balanced. I am of the belief that our innate natures inform us when to let go and to trust that our suffering of life is no longer of value. We all die, and as I wrote on the second abortion thread, I think choosing (and allowing this choice) to let go when life is no longer being lived even in, especially in, a state of futile suffering is a affirmation of life

We can never know or judge the right or wrong reasons someone chooses to end their suffering, it is not ours to assume and I think in our reason we hates this idea as it's as far as we can know for another.

Euthanasia is practiced daily, quietly and hopefully compassionately. Doctors will spike the morphine, deny a diuretic..., when they see only suffering. With human beings in the end stages of life doctors will do the only thing they can do to end immense and unnecessary suffering, they will end the life, sometimes with the human being's knowledge and consent, sometime without it.

Doctor's hasten death this way because our laws have yet to see that terminal suffering is cruel torture, and because we have yet to legislate according to this wisdom (in North America at east) our rights to freely choose our end. I expect that if laws allowed for assisted suicide, the doctors would freely give up this unspoken responsiblity, until then it is the only humane choice.

What our laws will continue to do, is prevent the slippery slope that is feared, if only because the human population will never agree to legalize the practice of euthanasia, though hopefully we will one day see the compassion in allowing the terminally ill human being to chose when to end their own suffering.

I think that to believe that by giving human beings the (and here's that word again) legal choice to end their already dying life would only result in a slippery slope downwards into our basest and cruelest human aspects, is to discount our reverence for life and compassion most have for our fellow human beings. Our insight into other's contexts, personal, racial, sexual and cultural, has done much for our social progress in the last 100 years.

To deny human being their choice over life and death, when ever possible, is fear talking, even shouting, in an attempt drown out our reason and compassion, which says we're all going to die sometime, and fear is never the best thing to listen to when considering our life and death decisions.

ottovanbis (150 DX)
26 Sep 09 UTC
I agree one hundred percent. Well put.
giapeep (100 D)
26 Sep 09 UTC
Thank you.
giapeep-Well put, I agree with some of what you said but not all. You obviously respect my opinion and believe in the entitlement of opinions.

ottovanbis-Show respect for other people's beliefs.

because the Bible was written by humans and is not the "word of 'God'"

-Inspired by God. Written by humans.

Do you question anything?

-Yes. I look to God for my answers.

Read between the lines, hell (not the poetic usage of this imaginary place of God-loving warmth), just read the lines of the Bible and the spewings of religious fanatics, and maybe you can cure your blindness

-Would you care to explain? You didn't make much sense.

if you don't believe committing suicide gives you a straight-way ticket to HELL, then why wouldn't one want to commit suicide ASAP to reap the rewards of HEAVEN that much more quickly?

Psalm 16:5-8 Lord, you have assigned me my portion and my cup; you have made my lot secure.

The boundary lines have fallen for me in pleasant places; surely I have a delightful inheritance.

I will praise the LORD, who counsels me; even at night my heart instructs me.

I have set the LORD always before me. Because he is at my right hand, I will not be shaken.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
26 Sep 09 UTC
Do you deny that some mistakes would be made?

Are the mistakes worth it? I am not willing to be one of those mistakes.

When I asked how do we know what terminally ill is, what I meant was that we can never be sure that an illness is terminal. All the time, people are told they have a month to live, but then somehow magically "cure" themselves and go on normally. Religious people say this is the power of the prayer, I am not so sure. It doesn't matter what it is, the fact is that it happens.

Speaking of terminal illnesses and suffering:

I have a terminal illness, and so do you. It's called life. It's filled with suffering and it can only end in death. Why not just hasten that death? What's the point of living in this world of suffering anyway, especially since I have no hope of surviving it?

What I'm saying is, it is all a spectrum. Once you have entered the spectrum, you cannot leave. Once you have said it is ok to hasten death, you have asked the question, since all death is inevitable, why not hasten all death?

That is a dangerous question to ask since we do not know the purpose of life. We cannot pretend to know, and to end life by our own choice is to say "I do not care what the purpose of life is." That's a mistake, a mistake that could be very grave (If you'll pardon that Shakespearian pun).
Thucydides (864 D(B))
26 Sep 09 UTC
And this has nothing necessarily to do with religion, ZaZa, please stop cornering yourself.

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