result in = restort to

Darwyn, I blame both sides for what is going on. Is there a language I can write that in that will get it through that lump of shit you call a head? (you seem to want to make this person, I have no problem with that)

Cheers to Edi for a true moment of clarity!

I think he is exactly right in his assessment that if the palestinians could, they would kill all isrealis, while if the Isrealis could they would kill zero civilians. A true measure of the humanity or lack thereof of the two different cultures involved.

*personal

trip - nothing will get throuugh to Darwyn on this issue. I respect his passion, but I saw about 15 seperate people just give up the argument in the other thread because he would not be swayed to consider the other side.

No offense Darwyn, I've agreed with you on many other issues in the past, but this one ... not so much.

You people aren't interested in the history here, it seems. You are working off of the blank assumption that Arabs simply want Israel (I'll use the highly popular mistranslation that you seem to covet) "wipe Israel off the map" just because ??????

Your refusal to examine WHY Arabs are pissed off results in your complete ignorance. You are blindly following the exact same mantra that allows leaders to say stupid shit like "they hate us because we are free" and be believed.

But hey, if it makes you feel better to think Arabs hate Jews just because, that's fine...but it's ridiculous.

"Most people prefer to believe their leaders are just and fair even in the face of evidence to the contrary, because once a citizen acknowledges that the government under which they live is lying and corrupt, the citizen has to choose what he or she will do about it. To take action in the face of a corrupt government entails risks of harm to life and loved ones. To choose to do nothing is to surrender one’s self-image of standing for principles. Most people do not have the courage to face that choice. Hence, most propaganda is not designed to fool the critical thinker but only to give moral cowards an excuse not to think at all."

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trip, I was talking specifically about the exchange between Erdogan and Peres, which was in direct reference to the most recent slaughter in Gaza. The blame is squarely on Israel in this instance. So your statement says nothing other than to somehow shift focus of the discussion to something broader just so you can chime in and feel right about it.

I will never say Hamas is never wrong...but if you REALLY want to address the meat of the matter, read this:

http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/kabd_eng.html

He addresses the root of the problem that you Israeli supporters refuse to acknowledge. That's where it starts and that is precisely the problem here and now 60 years later.

None taken, phil. I'm glad you were able to acknowledge my passion at least.

I can be swayed if you can tell me what right Israel has for forcing Arabs to acknowledge their religious and historical claim to their land.

I would not even dare to attemp to ... first of all, I've seen 15 others try and fail (and in your defense, you tried and failed to convince the same 15 that you were right). And Second of all, I am no where nearly as educated as you or the people on the other side have been in this issue to try to sway anyones opinion. I'll just continue to sit and watch and learn.

but trip - seriously ... don't bother ;-)

The criminal activities do not justify each other. Whether it be the criminal acts of groups of Palestinians (shooting rockets at civilian populations or various acts of terrorism) or the criminal acts of a few members of the Israeli army (shooting at a school with no fighters in it, shooting at UN personnel after being told of their presence, blocking aid workers from doing their job, or authorizing and using white phosphorus munitions). Both sides can see the violations of the other clear as day - but, in true human form, is blind to, ignores, or justifies violations of their own side. Just as in a domestic dispute, until both sides are ready to acknowledge their responsibility for their part in the problem and truly hear the other side's grievances no significant progress will be made.
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Edi, Yes Israel is capable of far more destruction... I don't understand how that gives them a pass to destroy far more than the Palestinians simply because yes, they didn't do something even worse. The ability to carpet bomb does not give someone a pass to do lesser crimes.
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Darwyn, what right does either side have in forcing the other to see their way? Obviously none. As Edi eloquently points out, "It should cause us to review those goals, but alas we do not".

Ok, I'd like to enter my two cents on the situation in Gaza. I would like to warn that in this situation I am very much a realist, not a humanitarian. Government is formed on a social contract. A social contract is a silent agreement that civilians give up rights for protection. The first order of any government is to protect those who have given said government their rights. If Israel has ANY people killed by militants in the Gaza strip, than it must act. If it chooses to not act, then the government is not doing its job, and has violated the social contract. For it to be an effective government, it must do what it can to minimize the casualties of its own population.

Being a humanitarian comes second.

Savlian, would you say then that it is Hamas' duty, as the Gaza government, to protect it's citizens by "acting" - i.e. repelling the foreign invaders? After all, being a humanitarian comes second. Indeed if Hamas doesn't attack the foreign invaders they have violated the social contract.

Some call it passion, some call it stubborness, others call it blindness. Its funny Darwyn that you state you will never state Hamas is never wrong. But you tend to justify their wrong actions by saying they had a legitimate reason for their wrong actions. That they had no other way to strike back. So their wrongness is both excusable and acceptable.

Savlian, but would you say that the IDF's actions are making their citizens more safe? The continued conflict is sustained and escalated by both sides' refusal to turn the other cheek. It's like a last clap contest, except with terrible casualties. It is in Israel's power to turn the other cheek, and attempt to reach a peaceful resolution. I would say that the security of it's citizens is an important reason, but not the only reason the IDF is attacking.

It's not that surprising that Israel has "only" killed 1300 Palestinians. It's not as if they should be morally commended for not using their entire arsenal. Israel still has to answer to international pressures and would find it quite a hypocritical pariah if it actually decimated the Palestinians like they are capable of doing. That's why it rests upon waiting for provocation before attacking, despite the response, in my opinion, far out of scale. It's like commending me for beating the shit out of a guy but not shooting and killing him when really it's because I don't want to incur the lengthier prison term. Though I suppose it's only this commendation that motivates the IDF to be discriminatory in it's targeting in the first place.

If Hamas had the capability to destroy every Israeli, I don't think they would. They are only indiscriminate in their targets now because beggars can't be choosers. They take their targets when they can because they can't afford to fight along the same moral guidelines that larger countries can.

I'll reiterate my stance from the previous mammoth thread, which I backed out of because I was busy and then had fallen too far behind to catch up. I believe that the fault lies on both sides. I believe that Israel had no legitimate claim to any land in Palestine. I believe that Israel currently has the right to continue it's existence. I believe that escalating conflict is definitely not the answer to either side's problems. I believe a peaceful agreement can be achieved if both sides would think in the longer run and not just continue trying to get the last clap in.

I once heard someone say the best solution to the whole problem is to boot both sides out and give it to the Cornish :P

Ultimately I see one large problem with this. The solution is integration and mutual assimilation. Why cannot Palestinians become Israeli citizens and democratically fight for equal rights, like in other countries? Must they alienate themselves to districts and elect turbulent groups to their marginal governments which only bring down war and destruction around them? Can they not attempt to see the Israelis who have lived in the area for years now, not as outsiders, occupiers, or marauders, but as co-habitors, roomates, even brothers and friends? The two groups share so much in common with the rest of the world and yet they succeed in dividing up the entire world into ranks for and against them. What madness.

Placing blame is pointless. And if the Palestinians don't want to join Israel because it's Israel, rename the damned place.

The UN set up a partition plan that Israel was willing to accept, because they wanted peace. The Arabs, though, rejected it and instead attempted to violently drive out the Israelis. This was the first in a long line of missed opportunities for the two groups to move toward cooperation and the eventual merging of the two into the larger fabric of the area, becoming one demographic instead of two.

I mean... they live SO close together. Their culture is defunct, because all they can do is look back in time, more than 60 years and say look, here is justification for killing you. Shut up about the past, for God's sake. Move on. Get on with your life, it just might be a happier one if you stop fighting.

Like... what the crap is the goal of Hamas? Are they working for some better life that they really think they will get to? Because all they are accomplishing is bringing misery to their most loyal supporters. It is sickening to watch.

Political integration of the Palestinians has been troublesome even when it has been tried. There are various reasons for this. Israel has laws that cause institutional bias against Palestinians. Examples are the Law of Return, the political structure (one big constituency to prevent Palestinian power blocs) and others. Of particular interest is the conditions for running for political office or party formation, where the party or individual must not in action or stance oppose the nature of Israel as Jewish state, the democratic character of the state, and the party or individual must not discriminate on the basis of race.

I don't know about anyone else, but I see a large discrepancy between the first and last of those conditions.

Chrispminis says :"If Hamas had the capability to destroy every Israeli, I don't think they would. "

I think this is naive in the extreme. Of course they would. They'd be heroes in the Arab world. They might be shunned by the West for a while, but the Arab world would unite behind them, and eventually the West would come back to the table because of oil.

Hamas absolutely has the obligation to defend its citizens as well. A governmetn that violates the social contract no longer has any right to exist othe than might, and should be dissassembled as soon as possible. Israel does not have the power to turn the other cheek. If it does, rockets will continue to enter Israel without fail, drawing it deeprer into breach of social contract.

This is not to say that they should not attempt negotiations at the same time. Negotiations are the most effective way to solve a solutions. Or, seeing as war is diplomacy by other means, the only solution. However, when peaceful negotiation fails, and shows no signs of working in the near future, it is the duty of each government to keep their citizens safe, and after all, the best defense is a good offense.

No, I would say their fanaticism is driven by desperation. If they were in the position of power where they could destroy every Israeli they would be much better off if they didn't. They would not sacrifice their own objectives and well being just to hurt others if they had the choice. Restraint is a luxury.

Chrispminis, what are their objectives?

Restraint makes is unfait to the citizens of Israel. The citizens of Israel, living under a government have the right to protection.  Where is their protection when restraint is being excersized?

DJ, I wouldn't presume to speak for a terrorist cell, but I imagine their goals are to evict the state of Israel from the area. They want their land back.

Savlian, you didn't answer my question. If a government's counter attack would most likely result in more harm to it's citizens should it still counter attack? Restraint has a lot of advantages because a lack of restraint is heavily looked down upon by international opinion. Is it in the best interests of the citizens of Israel to slaughter Palestinians and become an international pariah? I would say that Israeli's are relatively safe from Hamas attacks... More Israeli's probably die in car accidents and of cancer...

Boy are you an apologist chrispminis. more people die from food poisoning than from 9/11. and wouldnt killing all israelis effectively evict israel?

No, I'm not an apologist. I absolutely believe that Israel has the right to defend itself. I used that example because I agree with Savlian on the role of government but I simply want to make a more utilitarian case than the categorical imperative-style action he's arguing. It's true that more people die from food poisoning than from 9/11 and I believe proportionate measures should have been taken where the causes of both could be mitigated. Look at what America has done in the wake of 9/11 and ask if it's made American citizens safer (or freer). I'm not saying we should take attacks lying down simply because we could incur casualties if we respond, because obviously to do so would only invite further bullying. I'm saying that government should look in the longer term (not just looking to the next election), and respond proportionately to the various threat's to the citizens.

And yes, killing all israelis would effectively do that, but if they had the capability, they have the capability for restraint and alternatives to achieving their objectives. They want their land back. They're not an inherently bad or fanatical peoples... any people in the same position would be just as morally despicable. It's desperation that fosters extremism. I'm not condoning their action, I'm just pointing out that it's circumstance not the people that create these atrocities, and we have the power to change circumstance, but not people. I heard people arguing in the first thread that the conflict will only end when every Palestinian has left the area. The problem isn't in the peoples...

It may be true that the Palestinians of 1948 were changed due to circumstances. But Palestinians born today know nothing of the homeland they pine for. They were raised believing Jews were evil, they are given pretend suicide belts and machine guns for their 3rd birthdays. How do you change those taught these lessons by their parents and teachers and government officials since childbirth?

Go read some Palestinian textbooks. Go read sermons or official government releases and tell me again whether they would kill all Israelis if they had the opportunity.

"Hamas will continue the resistance until the last drop of blood."
(Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum, calling for a resumption of suicide attacks on Gaza radio, December 27, 2008)

"This is Islam, that was ahead of its time with regards to human rights in the treatment of prisoners, but our nation was tested by the cancerous lump, that is the Jews, in the heart of the Arab nation... Be certain that America is on its way to utter destruction, America is wallowing [in blood] today in Iraq and Afghanistan, America is defeated and Israel is defeated, and was defeated in Lebanon and Palestine... Make us victorious over the community of infidels... Allah, take the Jews and their allies, Allah, take the Americans and their allies... Allah, annihilate them completely and do not leave anyone of them."
(Sheikh Dr. Ahmad Bahar, acting Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council, April 20, 2007; as reported by Palestinian Media Watch, April 23, 2007)

"We will continue until the very last usurper is driven out of our land."
(Sheik Nizar Rayan, Hamas "political" leader, at a rally in Gaza, Al-Jazeera TV on September 16, 2005, MEMRI)

"By God, we will not leave one Jew in Palestine. We will fight them with all the strength we have. This is our land, not the Jews..."

"You will have no security except outside the homeland Palestine.... We have Allah on our side, and we have the sons of the Arab and Islamic nation on our side."
(Abdel Aziz Rantisi, Hamas leader, June 10, 2003, interview with Al-Jazeera, Jerusalem Post)


"Oh Allah, take this oppressive, Jewish, Zionist band of people. Oh Allah, do not spare a single one of them. Oh Allah, count their numbers, and kill them, down to the very last one." --Sheik Yousuf Al-Qaradhawi a religious leader of Hamas.

"The remaining Jews will unsuccessfully attempt to hide, as the rocks and trees will expose them, calling out "there is a Jew behind me, kill him!" "The Hour of the Islamic Resurrection and End of Time is literally dependent on the killing of Jews by Muslims. " --Hamas spokesman Dr. Ismail Radwan

"They were raised believing Jews were evil"

OMG! They were raised believing Jews were evil, eh?

It has nothing to do with the illegal settlements? Has nothing to do with that same 3 year old watching his mommy die at the hands of the IDF? Has nothing to do with bulldozing homes? Has nothing to do with destroying farms? I could go on and on and on...

But there you go again with the Arabs-hate-Jews-just-because!

Do you realize just how stupid you sound when you allude to this? Why don't you acknowledge Israeli atrocities against Arabs? You can start with the King David Hotel bombing.

Seriously Dingle...you have NO clue. You see things as you are told to see them, not for what they are.

Sorry, KDH should be Der Yassin...start with that instead.