I'm a native Chinese. I see so much prejudice in your comments about my country. Each social system has its advantages and disadvantages.

Save yourself before you save others...

As to the idea that human nature is to blame for Communism not working, that is partially true. However, it is largely because we have been conditioned to believe in Capitalism and almost an "every person for themselves" attitude. People can be re-conditioned to believe otherwise, but unfortunately that is a breach of their civil liberties. In a society that is willing to give this up, communism could work, however the communism would only work because people were told that it should work.

Any society that made something work simply by telling people it has to work is not a society that I would want to live in.

PS - I am not bashing communism myself, I used to be something of a communist myself before I realised the above.

Am I blacklisted (see login name)?

Nature itself is capitalist, not all animals are created equal, some eat, the others get eaten. Humans are a product of this.

I am very disappointed that the debate keeps straying off ideology and into discussions on power, how to get it and how to keep it. That is a universal flaw in every system, not unique to "communist" dictators (although because it was a major part in the writings of Marx and Engels I can see why the association sticks). I would say that there has never been a true communist state, and I sincerely doubt there will be (except maybe in Star Trek!).

GuanShao- being anti-capitalist does not automatically make you a communist. I hate capitalism, it's a constant struggle, and I think, a flawed system. But I hate communism as well. It may look good on paper but all the real world examples only illustrate why it cannot work. So I would appreciate it if you would stop calling me a communist, because I am not one.
Also I think you're way of thinking is flawed. for example, you're not with america or against it, that is a gross oversimplification. like wise if you are against capitalism that does not make you a communist, and you suggesting so only makes you appear ignorant.

America values patriotism - ie putting your country before all others. That is another notion that goes against equality, therefore it's probably difficult to be a patriotic American and a communist.

It's true international communism won't stop until everyone in the world is living in equality, but there is nothing in the Communist Manifesto that says that outcome must be achieved by imperialism above choice. (well there probably is, but the Communist Manifesto was written at a time when democracy was very limited both geographically and in terms of enfranchisement, making "the will of the people" something undetectable - I'm sure today it is more possible that true equality could be sold to voters as a policy in fair and free elections).

"Communism is perfection. Perfection is impossible"
I am 100% behind any movement that would genuinely lead to a truly communist state, right back to the ideals. However, I do not believe there will ever be anyone who does this, as every communist state so far has left the ideology and just lead to a different ruling class.
Oh, and lets throw this one out: How do we know Fidel Castro is still alive? His brother is now in control and is making Cuba more and more capitalist as he goes

because if he dies it would be a big deal. they would glorify him, he would be ,even moreso, on billboards and signs, and tv etc

Please start spelling Iraq correctly.

As we can see, communism doesn't work out very well because of the "me first" mentality, however this implies that communism can work in smaller, more 'tight-knit' groups. Would it then be possible to make communism work by grouping communities in such a way that they look after themselves and contribute to the nation?

This goes back to the earlier days of socialism, where it was proposed that people live in secluded communities such as New Lanark. This is a real example of that idea, however, I do not agree with seclusion, I hate the idea of fixed schedules, excessive equality

...and lack of freedom of movement, my human rights come first. I'm sure it could still work with the removal of those restrictions. I'm not taking sides here, just throwing it out there.

My goodness... I never said anything about all of our illegal immigrants coming from Cuba, only some. And get your facts straight: even if we hadn't offered you statehood, which we have, under our laws you have sufficient population to force us to make you a state. And you would be nothing if it were not for the American capitalist system: another Columbia, where if you are robbed the police come around to see if there's anything else for them to steal. And as for which people, the opposition party, the capitalists. When capitalism takes a country it does not kill the communists purely because they are communists, whereas when communism takes a country, it does kill the capitalists simply because they were capitalists. And, my goodness, equality is not supposed to be: what the Declaration of Independence meant, John Locke and the others before that meant, was equal opportunity: that is to say, not a system wherein if you are born a slave you cannot become king: a society in which your position is entirely your own fault.

Communism doesn't kill people, people kill people. You can have equality and employ communist principles without murder.

It is this sort of propaganda and blinkered prejudice that pro-capitalists rely on to defend their flawed system. Such stereotyping only highlights the ignorance of those who keep deploying it.

All right, then, so you can have equality without murder. You still haven't proven to me that it is beneficial to have equality. I am not saying capitalism is a perfect system: it is not, but it is the best system.

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried."
- Winston Churchill

I would say that this is true of capitalism as an economic system.

Equality is more beneficial than inequality if you are one of those lacking resources or capability. Most of us will get by fine under either system, but communism (theoretically) doesn't let anyone fall by the wayside. Of course that's no great comfort to the millions who starved to death under Stalin, but his definition of equality wasn't quite the same as mine.

If you contribute less to society, you ought to get less therefrom. Under a Communist system I get the same amount of non-wealth whether I work or not, so I have no motivation to work. Excepting, of course, my higher instincts, which tell me to work anyway. People that would act on such tendencies are few and far between. And even if the system gives according to one's contributions, the end result is the same: those who work harder get more. The only difference would be that the capitalist system is self-sustaining.

"Freedom has many difficulties and democracy is not perfect, but we have never had to put a wall up to keep our people in, to prevent them from leaving us." - John F. Kennedy

i wouldnt call a capitalist system "self sustaining" in an environmental way. in fact the need for growth and an ever increasing return on capital has lead to some serious distortions in our global econmy. part of the rapid increase in staple food prices is caused by speculation by traders, the asian curreny collapse was caused by hedge funds. im not a communist/statist at all but i do think there is something wrong with our capitalist profit motivated above all other concerns economic system that pays wages 20times or more to some guy rearranging numbers on a computer screen in a investment bank to teachers, nurses, house builders etc.
to be anti capiatlist doesnt mean you are a communist. i believe in the free market...IF you are forced to take into consideration externalities like pollution and the workplace had more democratic environment. capital and workers are both stakeholders within a company. this pure obsession with share prices and investors ROI is wrong

Oh the deadly homogenous label of "human nature"...

I've outlined my views on this simplistic view of humanity in another thread. But at the base, communism is probably the most morally perfect governmental system out there. It is far from evil, and far from the LEAST practical political system ever thought up. However, it is unworkable... Even in small tight-knit groups. It may last for a year, maybe 10 years, but the problem is that once a society is invaded by a single successful exploiter, the system falls apart. Communism can never compete with capitalism because a communist nation will have it's work cut out for it getting rid of all exploitative persons as well as keeping them out. Especially with all these greedy capitalists around.

Not to say that capitalism is bad... I very much admire it. It has some of the same problems in that for it to be ethical, it requires a homogenous population as well... Unfortunately, not everyone is created equal, and there is much stratification. I don't buy the argument that since there is inequality in nature, then obviously we shouldn't be alarmed at inequality in society. If humanity has any gift over nature, it's the power to deviate from it using our ingenuity and technology, so that we may shape our environment, rather than be shaped by it.

I think the largest misunderstanding regarding communism is that it's an economic model, not a political one. In that, it's opposite is capitalism, not democracy. You can have a democratic communism in theory. In fact, the labels are fairly arbitrary, since communist principles can be found occurring naturally in capitalist societies. For example, the corporation, perhaps the flagship for capitalism, is fairly communist in nature, in that it's a large group of people pooling together their wealth for their mutual benefit. Of course, it is still guided by capitalist economic theory.

Most people cite work ethic, or the lack thereof, as the major downfall of communism... but that's definitely only in view of our modern Occidental values. Humans are not necessarily greedy and lazy. It really depends on the culture. Certain cultures place community over self, and wouldn't worry about whether or not someone else is working less, but rather appreciate their own contribution to society. There are other motivations to work besides money...

Of course, in the end... communism requires that everyone set aside their anachronistic natural instinct and choose the more abstract moral values. It's a dog-eat-dog world, but we aren't dogs. Unfortunately... for such a change to happen, the entire individualistic trend will have to be reversed, the only feasible way being a massive global propaganda campaign aimed at re-adjusting social values (as much as I hate to say it); so large that it would make the current anti-smoking propaganda in the western world look meek.

I suppose I've proved the point that communist idealists usually end up advocating some large-scale revolution... involving propaganda or forceful takeovers, or whatnot. But it's not like capitalist idealists (aka free-market capitalists, of which I am one) are any freer of such notions.

@Theophilus
>>I am not saying capitalism is a perfect system: it is not, but it is the best system.

Since capitalism is the best one, we don't need to argue here, we only need to wait to see an all-capitalism world. :-)

Just to add (And I've stepped out of the conversation because you can't debate radicalists); Castro killed the upper class, not just in the civil war, but post civil war. The lowly people love him because they became the next upper class, and the lower class now hates him and leaves the country more often than not.

afraid im not really crying too hard for all those hard done by former plantation and hacienda owning, grandfather had slaves now i just sit in Miami and whine and get pandered to by US politicians Cubans.

Thanks? You sound just like a 'friend', and I use the term loosely, of mine who is also Latin American, who is by far the biggest racist in the world. Not saying you are, just that you sound like him.

"It's a dog-eat-dog world, but we aren't dogs" - great line.
Wawlam - I really disagree with that. If we did reach a purely capitalist world then isn't there a risk we'd end up with a fascist state, where those not able to work were 'removed', taking back to survival of the fittest.
In my opinion pure communism is the best possible, for then everyone has enough to live. However, as this will never be accomplished, it should not be targeted. Thus I feel capitalism is a better idea as most capitalist nations have some level of welfare state, whilst the capitalist backdrop for society ensures the work ethic is maintained.

What I meant by capitalism being self sustaining is that it panders to our "lower instincts". That is to say that left to myself I would look out for myself, I would look after myself before others. This is the main premise of capitalism.

which makes it work, since its base human instinct to survive, and do well.

Well, everything "works". It's not like choosing one mode of production over another will end the universe. Utopian communism brings the golden mean to everyone; Utopian capitalism brings success to everyone.

Yeah capitalism is great. you idiots work your lives away to pay for shit that you end up thrpwing away. si I get it for free! yay capitalism

Capitalism needs more communism, and communism needs more capitalism. This seems to be the direction of the debate, so then, how can we find this happy medium.