@Orathaic: My point is that tearing down the centres of Liverpool or Amsterdam or Hamburg, or Dublin for that matter, because they were built on the back of colonisation & trade & slavery, would be no different to bulldozing the Colosseum.

How old are most of the people on this site

@Santa: "If it wasn't for American soldiers my grandparents would have been gassed in aushwitz,"

Many nationalities contributed to the Allied victory. FWIW Auschwitz was liberated by Russian soldiers.

"I'm a nationalist for my own country but I wouldn't stand by if my country was doing wrong I'd stop being a nationalist "

What country would that be?

My grandmother was in an satellite slave labor camp liberated by Americans after being processed through the death camps, my grandfather was liberated by soviet a, who were going to send him to Siberia before he escaped. Now you know. In no way do I see that happening in time without American involvement.

Scotland

Technically not a country run

@ Hippo

FWIW how is making sure that the children in your country know the facts about your nation both the good and the bad "Standing by" and who would care if you simply stopped being a nationalist what would that act in and of itself solve?

Everyone is responsible for working to improve their nation. Pulling out and saying "This isn't my mess" (even though I admittedly did just that in the last election both choices were hideous) does little to improve anything.

It's a country within a union that I doubt will survive the next 50 years

So The UK? How many Picts to you know?

Saying that its wrong to celebrate the 4th of july because it is associated with nationalism is no different than chastising french for celebrating bastille day or mocking the people who celebrate guy fawkes.

In each case theres always going to be nationalists and scumbags. Im sure kkk members celebrate haloween - this doesnt make haloween symbolic of the virtues of racism.

The 4th of july is a day to celebrate frivilous spending on chibese fireworks - belgian beer (inbev) and cheap american flags made in honduras and china. This is a sacred day of wasteful spending - binge drinking - indeed this holiday celebrates the consumer.

So unless yer some dirty communist - shut yer yaps and come get fucked up with me

Oh and the outdoor cookout where the burgers are swarming with flies because the dude forgot to get tiki torches. Or the guy who throws a ground bloom flower in the swimming pool and freaks the kids out. Or that moment in the evening where you scrape a pipe for resin only to learn it was an opium pipe and the fireworks are about to start

@"Crazy Anglican Online (271 D)
New 03:03 PM
+1
For my part, I am celebrating the signatures of a group of men who must have had balls of solid steel. Telling a monarch what the limit of his power actually should be. And they were right....how much power does that same office have today?"

Seriously, read the people's history, a much better understanding than you imagine you have: "orathaic
02:49 PM https://libcom.org/history/peoples-history-american-revolution"

@"diplomat61 (109 D)
New 03:33 PM
+1
@Orathaic: My point is that tearing down the centres of Liverpool or Amsterdam or Hamburg, or Dublin for that matter, because they were built on the back of colonisation & trade & slavery, would be no different to bulldozing the Colosseum."

Your point was an attempt to distract the conversation with a false equivalence. I never claimed that you should knock down the statue of liberty or blow up the white house (because it was built by slaves), I only make the claim that the 4th of July isn't held as a time worth celebrating.

I made no claims about changing the material reality of the US today. I merely present an alternative mental landscape for you to consider.

Thus your point is irrelevant, and needlessly distracting.

Read the people's history of the foundin of the US, it is an excellent piece.

By stand by I mean I wouldent support any actions done by my country if they were terrible. But I'd take blame if I voted for a party that caused these problems

@Orathaic:
My point was a response to Santa's "Maybe Europeans should tear down the monuments that you all are so proud of, built on the backs of slaves and colonialism not to mention repeated genocides of Jews and other undesirables ."

It was entirely pertinent and not a false equivalence.

I think most Americans are well aware of the crimes being committed by their leaders in other countries and their own.

Why do you think Americans swung towards such an anti-establishment stance in their last vote and voted someone who promised to be more neutral and cooperative with other countries?

Our views are the same diplomat, I think your views of the monuments are my views of the fourth.

@Fluminator: Because the established authorities failed to provide them with a big enough bribe following the failure of the banks.


The majority give not one shit about the crimes committed in Afghanistan or Iraq/Syria. Or even Yemen, Uganda, and Cameroon.

@Diplomat, apologies, i should have directed the charge of false equivalence at Santa's "Maybe Europeans should tear down the monuments that you all are so proud of, built on the backs of slaves and colonialism not to mention repeated genocides of Jews and other undesirables ." - because my point stands entirely well on it's own if you point it in the right direction. My apologies to you.

Trump promised to be more cooperative? How is ripping up ratified treaties, promising to rip up existing trade-deals, threatening that nato needs to pay up, acting alone on environmental policy.... how is any of this neutral or cooperative

Most Americans I talk to feel hugely guilty about them. The ones that don't generally don't even know about them because the mainstream media never talks about it.
Do you even talk to Americans or are you just assuming they all suck so you can feel good about ripping into them?

Why is it a false equivalency Ora? It's absolutely equivilant.

Flum, without a doubt your second point, note I never at any point said that the United States isn't guilty, just the wholesale attacks on Americans as stupid ignorant and guilty as compared to the entire western world, and much of the east. The idea that Americans should be particularly ashamed of the fourth is absurd

@brain
He broke a bunch of promises but at the time he was campaigning on things like "we're not going to destabilize yet another middle eastern country" or "we're not going to bully Russia".
I have yet to see a move by Trump lose him more supporters than bombing Syria which shows that was one of the more important reasons people had voting for him.

Its one thing to feel guilty its another to think that the US military represents the wishes of the average american. And sure most people dont hate the US military - they tend to pay little attention.to who it is bombing or why. Admittedly were bonbing a lot of places on the regular and its dizzying to fathom why both political parties are so obsessed with clandestine slaughter of perceived terrorists.

Ultimately - other than sympathy for our servicemen and women; I dont believe the average american has the proper info to ask why were fighting insurgents in yemen, why its so hard to just leave afghanistan or why we even got involved in syria at all. Or why were still bothering to fight ISIS. I dont have these answers. Im not a general. Im not an intelligence operative.

It seems like bad business to spend 1.3 million dollars on a bomb raid to take out a guy with a ak 47 and a jungle gym. But thats just ne

@Flum I think the office of the Presidency tends to be easily manipulated by war-hawks. The dick cheneys of the world will always whisper in the kings-ear that something must be done. Trump-Obama-Bush-Clinton all surrounded themselves with war monger advisors who write a compelling story on why bosnia, somolia, iraq, libya, syria, yemen, are places we must strike

@ orashee

"Seriously, read the people's history, a much better understanding than you imagine you have: "


I probably will at some point, but your statement shows me everything I need to know about you stance. You imagine that anyone who doesn't arrive at the same decidedly anti-American stance as you is doing so out of ignorance and the only salient points are those that indict the U.S.A. of crimes. All along I have agreed that we have been guilty of crimes and that we have achieved great things. Since you take an absolutist stance, I tend to take what you say with a grain of salt though.

Very true brain

And how can you feel that way if you've actually read A People's History rather than heard Matt Damon talking about it in a goodwill hunting. APH is not a full history of the United States, it refocuses American history on groups that have been oppressed and questions the March of Liberty narrative. Yes it will provide a better understanding, but what history book doesn't. It will provide a different perspective that will enrich and could even change your view of the arch of American history, it's not some kind of mind blowing world changing book. It's also an approach that is WELL known to people who have studied us history on any advanced level.