In the same that your statement on "big capitalism" using illegal/undocumented workers is also misleading, if entirely inaccurate.

I'm not sure how to read that, wj.

@Tolstoy: That would be true if by "Big Business" you are talking about the 1800s.

But be realistic that illegal workers are unnecessary to big business now -- wage labour provides a cheap-enough and reliable-enough workforce within North American/European countries.

Now if only they could pay below the minimum to minimize payments...wait...I think that's why they have undocumented workers :o

Yeah I agree that business is in favor of immigration status quo, illegal immigration and all. But they wouldn't shy away from using xenophobia about it to get more political oower, indeed they have a track record of doing that

It's just that they never actually address the xenophobic concerns

Tr, you've taken a rude tone that I don't think is justified in a friendly discussion like this; especially when we're on the same side. Typical Left, let's attack each other.

http://assets.amuniversal.com/e1996ea0c0af0132d64a005056a9545d

EVERYBODY HERE

But I do think you're wrong to say, specifically, that "big business" would rely on illegal/undocumented workers -- it just isn't practical or cost-effective, when there are much easier ways of maximising profit.

Certainly in the UK, if you're thinking about big business banking, media, or retail, illegal workforces don't make sense.

Small companies with smaller workforces* who can navigate illegal/undocumented workforces without being noticed or questioned, yes, I'm with you on that, as I already said originally.

*companies without large public profiles to concern themselves with, without media/government scrutiny on their books/everyday practice (a basic definition that I'll start with)

"But be realistic that illegal workers are unnecessary to big business now"

If they're "unnecessary", why are big corporations like Tyson Foods smuggling them into the country by the thousands? Why are all the agricultural plantations here in California manned exclusively by Spanish speakers from poor neighborhoods, often bused in at Big Agribusinesses' expense by the hundreds from scores of miles away? Why is it that Spanish is the lingua franca on every factory production floor here?

"wage labour provides a cheap-enough and reliable-enough workforce within North American/European countries."

No, it doesn't. The funny thing about native citizen workers is that they demand things like safe and comfortable working conditions and have no qualms about filing workers' comp claims when they are injured on the job. And they might call a lawyer when they are wrongfully fired. They also know a thing or two about what their An illegal alien, though, who can be deported as soon as they become inconvenient by placing a call to the local Immigration office, poses no danger for any of these very expensive risks.

They also know a thing or two about what their

*They also know a thing or two about what their labor is worth, and on occasion have the temerity to demand more money...

"But they wouldn't shy away from using xenophobia about it to get more political oower, indeed they have a track record of doing that"

Can you please provide some elucidation on this "track record"? I can't think of any instances in recent history of big corporations going out of their way to demonize their pool of cheap immigrant labor.

Agricultural plantations aren't "big business" though -- this is exactly the type of workplace where, yes, illegal workforces can be exploited.

"No, it doesn't."

Yes, it does. Otherwise the vast majority of our populations wouldn't be on the wage levels that they are.

It may not make sense in the UK, but it is general sense in the US.

"Agricultural plantations aren't "big business" though" They are in the US. And any one that is actually successful anywhere in the world belongs to big business.

You have me on Tyson Foods, though -- I've just read up on that and have not heard of that case before -- but I don't know of a British equivalent example for that (though I concede this does not mean examples do not exist) and it seems that Tyson Food is the exception rather than the rule.

I'm not denying that big business would happily exploit people even worse if they could; it's just not particularly necessary when our capitalist world system makes it fairly unnecessary for them to do so anyway.

*not particularly necessary for big business to exploit illegal workforces

"Agricultural plantations aren't "big business" though"

Are you stupid, or just really ignorant?

Some corporations hire illegal aliens to avoid paying taxes that would be there for legal workers. However they are seldom prosecuted for breaking the law and might pay relatively minor fines.

Then there are corporations that do pay taxes for their illegal workers using false social security numbers. These workers will rarely gain the benefits from their taxes so the government benefits.

"Agricultural plantations aren't "big business" though" They are in the US. And any one that is actually successful anywhere in the world belongs to big business.

@Tr: This is just fudging. We're basically in agreement, you just want to argue on detail.

Small agriculture plantations/companies, YES, are known for using illegal/undocumented workforces.

While they ARE attached to big business (of course, this is capitalism), I just meant that it is not big business directly using illegal workforces -- of course if big business is attached to small companies with dirty hands then big business has dirty hands too. But my original distinction was trying to provide a simplified answer to bo_sox's question.

Sheesh.

Small agriculture doesn't have nearly enough money to pay for undocumented workers. Or mostly just workers in general for that matter. Small agriculture hardly exists, because they're so dirt poor that most end up selling their souls to big ag.

"Agricultural plantations aren't "big business" though"

"Are you stupid, or just really ignorant? "



@Tolstoy: You're extremely rude and arrogant. Tone yourself done.

To say the reverse of my statement would be stupid and ignorant. There are many different forms of agricultural plantation, so for you to simply state that agricultural plantations are big business is just wrong.

Also, it's 3am here and I'm on my phone and should be asleep, cut me some slack :)

@Chaqa … "For a lot of people it isn't an issue of "controlling women's bodies" either, but simply preventing murder. In their eyes, why should a woman be allowed to murder her baby?"

I can't tell if you're simply playing devil's advocate here or if you're serious. You give people who believe a fetus is a human a free pass and then make a logical argument, but the first premise of your argument, that a fetus is human, is false; ergo, invalid argument. Simple stuff man.

@Prado … why else do people cross the border to get here other than to work? There may be a select few who do so as part of the drug trade, but the drug trade is much better in Mexico. The only people in the drug trade that have any need to come into this country are those bringing in the shipments. Donald Trump thinks they do so to rape women, but I'm genuinely curious as to what other purposes people have for coming across the border without papers.

@wjessop … as you said, we lose a hell of a lot more on taxes from rich people and big corporate businesses bailing on our unbelievable failure of a tax system and exposing the same loopholes without punishment time and time again. Why is it an issue for a Mexican guy who doesn't have more than 10 cents worth of taxes to pay anyway to bail when we lose billions yearly on corporations stashing their money alone?

Also, big companies *love* undocumented workers. IBP was exposed some years back for hiring undocumented workers for well below legal wages, having them work their butts off in their factories, and then selling them to Border Patrol and I think the FBI as well if/when they asked for a raise or for basically whatever reason they wanted.

Basically, in short, big businesses run the black market.

As for the "socially conscious" person, that's bullshit. That person fights for their rights. They don't tell them they are better off leaving. They came here to make their lives better, and your "socially conscious" person would prefer to make that possible as part of a path-to-citizenship program than automatically deport them.

"As for the "socially conscious" person, that's bullshit. That person fights for their rights. They don't tell them they are better off leaving. They came here to make their lives better, and your "socially conscious" person would prefer to make that possible as part of a path-to-citizenship program than automatically deport them. "

?

I never said any of this you are suggesting -- you're just reading me wrong :/

Of course that person fights for their rights and citizenship; and this is why they don't want them to be illegal/undocumented.

Please.

"Why is it an issue for a Mexican guy who doesn't have more than 10 cents worth of taxes to pay anyway to bail when we lose billions yearly on corporations stashing their money alone?"

I think you completely misread me.

I'm completely with the proverbial little man against the big companies.

All right, my turn to play devil's advocate. You're saying that the socially conscious will blindly put every undocumented person on a path to citizenship if they can get away with being undocumented for long enough?

I didn't misread you, I responded to what you said. You adjusted that stance later on, and I read that, but I wanted to make my point.

Also, I would have no issue if someone said we should take both the big and the very, very little on at the same time. It wouldn't be that difficult if our politicians stopped taking bribes.

"@Prado … why else do people cross the border to get here other than to work? There may be a select few who do so as part of the drug trade, but the drug trade is much better in Mexico. The only people in the drug trade that have any need to come into this country are those bringing in the shipments. Donald Trump thinks they do so to rape women, but I'm genuinely curious as to what other purposes people have for coming across the border without papers." To avoid bureaucracy.