"The one where the Lebanese massacre Palestinians that were taking over their country."

Orchestrated and presided over by Israel. I guess you have ready made excuses for that. And ignore the fact that Israel took over Lebanon until Hizballah threw you out.

"Slipping across international borders - better fences
Suicide vest bombers - check points and more fences
Mortar and rocket attacks - Iron Dome
Tunnels - destroying the tunnels"

Yes Israel is liquidating threats -

Children - Murdering children
Schools - Shelling schools
Hospitals - bombing hospitals
Refugee camps - bombing refugee camps
Evacuation centers - bombing refugee centers
Ambulances - attacking ambulances
Unarmed civilians - murdering unarmed civilians

"The example I gave showed that the Palestinians are still attacking defenseless civilian targets as there primary targets"

No, it doesn't show that at all. It shows a historical event from 1974 as an excuse used to murder children in their sleep. Your criticism of targeting unarmed civilians is most laughable thing I've ever heard.

"you guys are obviously not ridiculously well-informed with everything that is going on, despite you thinking you are."

Should we always assume that or just this time?

"do any of you guys personally know people who have been in X or Y in the past few weeks? Preferably really well?"

Should we always phone current events directly, or just this time?

I have no idea what the answer is to all this mess but those two statements are bizarre.

Putin defaming the Israeli people as "monsters"...

This from a man who's not just a fan of some of the world's nastiest mass murderers, BUT, lest we forget, advocated "Conquest as Peace."

Tell me, Putin...

Why would YOU be upset if the Israelis slaughtered the Palestinians...why, that IS what happens in conquest...not in your Red-Tinted Happy Land, where "conquest" = "sunshine and roses," maybe, but in the real world, conquest equals...well, the conquering and subjugation of a people, which often involves the horrific mass murdering of those people...

So if the Israelis are doing that, and you previously said that that's a path to peace...

Why the long face? "Conquest is Peace?" If Israel's doing that, you should be jumping up and down and having a pool (of blood) party!

"Something that happened 30 years ago is justification for your current war crimes?

Israeli apologists would make that argument."

Cute, given that Hamas apologists use what happened in 1947 to call for the genocide of the Jewish people.

But, please, go ahead...

http://memegenerator.net/instance/23253084

No they don't. But keep deflecting from your Israeli friends calling for genocide repeatedly right now.

It's ok when they do it, right?

You clearly didn't have a clue what I was saying, but what else is new. Keep trotting out that line, anything to deflect from the barbarism of Israel.

I think we all agree that all sides have been breaching human rights for quite a while now. While horrible, it's hardly startling news. What has been new this last period has been the rhetoric coming from Israeli side. This recent op-ed in the Times of Israel, "When Genocide is Permissible" is hardly even sugarcoating it anymore.

And yes, they are extremists (who mind you, wield very influential positions and have a large powerbase), but it even comes from Netanyahu, who on 11 july basically said that there will never be a two-state solution. Well... not much other options left then, are there?

The odd thing too is the military side of this. I mean, does anybody here even know and/or remember the military objectives being pursued? Which military objectives are being served by bombing UN schools where people are hiding? Or hospitals? Or shutting off the electricity? Or Turning off clean water?

As an aside, shall we try to avoid ad hominems? The topic is volatile enough already imho.

"shall we try to avoid ad hominems"

Avoid? Whole thread was a call-out toward obiwanobiwan, from the very first post:

"I wonder what obiwanobiwan... has to say about this."

Which is a response to the repeated call outs obiwan has made in the upteen Gaza threads. Asking a question is not an ad hominem.

There's a nice parallel here: it doesn't matter who started, each party has their own responsibility.

I suppose it's not an ad-hominem but I thought the interpersonal bitterness had been drained from the site. Never mind, I guess it's off-topic.

Merging the two topics again, I was really struck by this article on discussion on Israel/Palestine recently.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/picking-a-side-in-israel-palestine_b_5602701.html

Socrates - someone still playing the xenophobia card, for fuck sake have you got any brain cells, just about everybody in the world is talking about a slaughter of the innocents and you are shouting anti-semitism, sad, sad, sad, sad, sad.
We are talking war crimes here, Netanyahu and his generals should be arrested and sent to the Hague but there is only one reason they won't, the good old US of A who have just approved more expenditure to bolster Israeli defences, it is sickening to see another country so complicit in the slaughter.
To try and give equal airtime in the UK we see young Israeli soldiers crying over a coffin of a comrade who died in battle, when do you ever see US troops or allied troops weeping and wailing at the funeral of a fellow soldier, however this seems to be all there is to show apart from Israeli parents being interviewed saying how inconvenient it is to trudge down to the bomb shelters, sometimes at night, sometimes holding children, it is tough sometimes to get a good nights sleep.
On the other side we see daily pictures of dead and dying innocent women and children slaughtered by a professional and well armed military, in fighting terms it is the equivalent of Mike Tyson vs Woody Allen albeit there is no judge to step in and stop further punishment because the UN is a USA puppet organisation that refuses to enforce resolutions against Israel for over 50 years.
There is a sickness in Israeli society, who knows why, is it driven by religious extremism or brain-washing?
Hamas are the most ill-equipped opposition in terms of arms, military strategy and intelligence but to be fair their pathetic and completely ineffectual rockets provide a poor excuse for yet more high level incursion, destruction and devastation of the Palestinian lands.
Can any Americans on this forum explain why the Democrats in the White House are chucking ever more US taxpayers money at Netanyahu ..... I just don't get it.

No clue. Fear of being branded anti-Semites is all I can guess.

That article is terrible. But I guess the intent was to make the author feel good, and not actually make any sense.

" I just don't get it."

Sure you do. It's the same reason they're always sending them money. Because there is no Gaza lobby.

"That article is terrible. But I guess the intent was to make the author feel good, and not actually make any sense. "

LOL. While not entirely untrue, I think the main point is to open some people's eyes that the position they hold is more a position of loyalty than one of actual support.

If that was the main point, it was lost. The point I got was that anti-semitism motivates undue attention to Israeli crimes, Israel has no motivation to engage in criminal activity because they supposedly care about public opinion, Israel could do more savage attacks on civilians if they really wanted to, and that Assad should be glad he's not Jewish. Because, you know, if he were Jewish he'd have his country destabilized and destroyed in a war of attrition by a bunch of western backed throat cutting maniacs.

Oh but he opposes settlements, so that makes him objective and gives him the moral high ground. Taking a political position isn't about how it makes you look, but maybe it is for this author. Who seems less interested in justice and more interested in keeping his moral purity.

"Who seems less interested in justice and more interested in keeping his moral purity."

That I can totally agree with. While I think the article can offer some reflection on *why* we take the sides that we do, I pretty much agree with Desmond Tutu on this one:

If you are neutral on situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor.

"No they don't."

Yes...they do...

Hamas and other affiliated terror groups not recognizing Israel and calling for the deaths of its people stems specifically from what happened in 1947.

Sorry.

Are you going to tell us that the little dividing line between North and South Korea has absolutely nothing to do with what happened there in the early 1950s, too?

"I mean, does anybody here even know and/or remember the military objectives being pursued?"

Yes...they were pretty clear objectives, to be frank:

1. Cripple Hamas,
2. Destroy its network of tunnels that violate Israeli sovereignty,
3. Empty out/destroy as many Hamas rockets as possible.

"Which military objectives are being served by bombing UN schools where people are hiding? Or hospitals? Or shutting off the electricity? Or Turning off clean water?"

^#1?

When Hamas hides weapons in schools, you become suspicious of them and start to attack them...and as Hamas did it thrice--including AFTER the UN told them to stop...funny, someone should write an op-ed entitled "When Exploiting the UN's Good Will is Permissible"--I'm sorry...they make those places, as well as the hospitals (as I mentioned and linked in a past thread on this, they were firing from/around a hospital previously) targets.

You can't say X isn't a target, and then let one side store weapons/fire from X.

If X isn't a target, and is truly neutral, it has to be treated as such by BOTH sides.

Hamas didn't do that...so if your opponent in war is going to fight dirty and not observe the rules, and the rule-keeping body won't do a damn thing to stop it besides giving the diplomatic equivalent of "Tsk, tsk, you naughty boy you!", what incentive do you have to follow those rules?

The idea of "rules of war" break down when Hamas acts as if there are none.

"Hamas and other affiliated terror groups not recognizing Israel "

Moving the goalposts. You specifically said they called for their extermination. That's not true.

And the Likud Party explicitly denies the existence of Palestine in their manifesto.

This in addition to the genocidal comments their leadership has made.

israel has ALREADY violated the ceasefire.

Innocent Gazans are murdered while citizens of the "country" with the world's fourth largest military take grinning Facebook selfies inside their bomb shelters.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/picking-a-side-in-israel-palestine_b_5602701.html

"The point I got was that anti-semitism motivates undue attention to Israeli crimes, Israel has no motivation to engage in criminal activity because they supposedly care about public opinion, Israel could do more savage attacks on civilians if they really wanted to, and that Assad should be glad he's not Jewish. Because, you know, if he were Jewish he'd have his country destabilized and destroyed in a war of attrition by a bunch of western backed throat cutting maniacs."

^As opposed to his actually BEING a throat-cutting maniac now being challenged for power by other throat-cutting maniacs?

Oh. Sorry. Assad isn't a throat-cutting maniac, right, Putin?

He much prefers gassing his victims.

On to the article itself:

"Myth 1: Judaism has nothing to do with Zionism.
Myth 2: Islam has nothing to do with Jihadism or anti-Semitism.
Myth 3: This conflict has nothing to do with religion."

I agree all three are myths...I think there are other factors to Zionism than simply Judaism as a religion--hence why I back the idea of a Jewish state while simultaneously being an ardent atheist--but it is a fair point to reference nonetheless...and the quotes from Exodus and Deuteronomy help show why I'm NOT such a big fan of the Bible.

"Why on Earth would Israel deliberately want to kill civilians?

When civilians die, Israel looks like a monster. It draws the ire of even its closest allies. Horrific images of injured and dead innocents flood the media. Ever-growing anti-Israel protests are held everywhere from Norway to New York. And the relatively low number of Israeli casualties (we'll get to that in a bit) repeatedly draws allegations of a "disproportionate" response. Most importantly, civilian deaths help Hamas immensely.

How can any of this possibly ever be in Israel's interest?

If Israel wanted to kill civilians, it is terrible at it. ISIS killed more civilians in two days (700 plus) than Israel has in two weeks. Imagine if ISIS or Hamas had Israel's weapons, army, air force, US support, and nuclear arsenal. Their enemies would've been annihilated long ago. If Israel truly wanted to destroy Gaza, it could do so within a day, right from the air. Why carry out a more painful, expensive ground incursion that risks the lives of its soldiers?"

^Exactly what I've been saying...which is why Putin naturally hates this argument...

Never mind the fact that the negative attention he and others are giving Israel sort of proves why the above conceit is worth more than the passing shrug Putin gives it.

It does not make objective, logical sense for Israel to intentionally kill civilians...especially in an era where such an action would be caught, Tweeted and ReTweeted 5 million times before breakfast.

The argument that Israel intentionally does this ONLY works if you're already pre-disposed to view Israel as a mustache-twirling baddy...which is precisely what Nigee, Putin, and others here view it as, rather than (like the Palestinian Authority) a deeply complex political entity.

But nope! Pithy comments and hastags ahead!

#FreeDraugnar

"Moving the goalposts. You specifically said they called for their extermination. That's not true."

Yes it is--

http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=584

"2 - Jews to face yet another Holocaust
Headline: "Suffering by Fire is Jews' destiny in this world and next"
"... you will taste the punishment of Scorching Fire." [Quran 3:181]
"This [Quran] verse threatens the Jews with the punishment of Fire... the reason for the punishment of Fire is it is fitting retribution for what they have done... but the urgent question is, is it possible that they will have the punishment of Fire in this world, before the great punishment [of Fire in Hell] ... many of the [Islamic] religious leaders believe that the [Jews'] punishment of Fire is in this world, before the next world... therefore we are sure that the Holocaust is still to come upon the Jews." [Sheikh Yunus Al-Astal, Hamas MP, in his regular column in Al-Rissala, (Hamas weekly) March 13, 2008]

It is important to note that the Hamas MP switched words in the last sentence, from the word he used throughout, "harik," which means "fire," to "mahraka" a word from the same root, that is used by Arabic speakers to mean "holocaust."

3 - Muhammad's promise: Jews will be killed
"Regarding the Jews, our business with them is only through bombs and guns... the prophet [Muhammad] promised that we will fight you, with Allah's help, until the tree and stone say: "Oh Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him."
[Nizar Rayan, Hamas religious and military leader, Al-Aqsa TV (Hamas), Jan. 1, 2009. Note: Rayan was killed on Jan. 2, 2009]

4 - Extermination of Jews - good for humanity
In an article promoting the continued use of suicide terror in the official Hamas newspaper:
"We find more than one condemnation and denunciation of the resistance operations and bombings [suicide attacks], carried out by Hamas and the Palestinian resistance branches... [Eventually] everyone will know that we did this only because our Lord commanded so: 'I did it not of my own accord' [Quran] and so that people will know that the extermination of Jews is good for the inhabitants of the worlds."
[Al-Rissala, (Hamas weekly) April 23, 2007]"

And given that that's a PALESTINIAN source saying Hamas is genocidal, I think we can agree it's not biased in favor of Israel...

First of all, the schools that Israel targeted were not the ones with rockets. Hamas had put rockets in empty schools. Israel instead targeted the schools filled with sleeping children after telling people to go to the UNRWA facilities for safety. They murdered them in their sleep. Israel first denied that they ever shelled the school and claimed that Hamas did it. Of course that's an obvious lie.

And you're obviously lying.

Palwatch is not a Palestinian source you liar.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/officials-israel-outsources-monitoring-of-palestinian-media-after-idf-lapse-1.410082

Palestinian Media Watch provides mostly professional material on Palestinian incitement in the media and textbooks, but is associated with the right wing. It is directed by Itamar Marcus, who until recently served as the vice president of the Central Fund of Israel, a New York-based right-wing nonprofit association that donates to Israeli right-wing groups like Im Tirtzu and helps fund various activities in West Bank settlements.

Yeah totally unbiased.

What's wrong, Breitbart was unavailable?

I love how Obiwan Obiwan completely ignores the genocidal comments made by Israelis. Too busy justifying the bombing of schools and hospitals I guess.