What's more, Maniac, Israel's gone so far as to call individual households to warn them about impending military operations...

They're warning civilians, they're telling them to get out, they're doing that over and over...

While it's not a big hurdle to clear, given the other prominent conflict going on, the Ukraine-Russian Separatist clash...Israel's military operations are being so much more transparent and have gone to much greater lengths to try and avoid civilian casualties. You won't get that in the other conflict, and Hamas doesn't care about civilian casualties at all.

Again...what more can they do?

And to the inevitable smarmy response that answers "Stop the attacks," then, my dear anonymous smarmy person, how do you tell the Israeli people who rush for shelter day after day because of the persistent and unending rocketing of their country by Hamas that you're doing NOTHING to stop that constant attack?

Hamas won't even respect a ceasefire...how are you to have civil negotiations on situations in Israel OR Gaza when one party can't even agree to something so simple and civilized as a ceasefire for humanitarian aid?

Obi - Re your first post asking me what I would do. You state that full force didn't work, limited war didn't work and airstrikes arn't working and yet you seem to be advocating more of the same and defending this as the only solution. I'd love to be able to offer a better solution, maybe just try not killing anyone. Defend yourselves and let Iron Dome do its job. But try to be the bigger man, turn that other cheek. Make yourselves available for talks without precondition, try and solve some of your neighbour's practical issues, be a good neighbour.

You really shouldn't use phrases like "the skewed death toll damages Israel's PR." It appears that you care little for the people dying and more about one side's PR.

Your post about intent doesn't advance the discussion. In conflicts both sides have their preferred targets. I'm sure the UK govt wanted to kill IRA members rather than civil rights protesters on Bloody Sunday, but that mattered little to the people killed and didn't advance the Govt's cause, it only built up resentment.

"I'd love to be able to offer a better solution, maybe just try not killing anyone. Defend yourselves and let Iron Dome do its job. But try to be the bigger man, turn that other cheek. Make yourselves available for talks without precondition, try and solve some of your neighbour's practical issues, be a good neighbour."

But what kind of civilized nation should have to scramble for shelters every couple hours because of continuous rocket fire because its enemy wants them all dead?

You'd really advocate for them just letting Hamas fire away and hope the Iron Dome--which can't keep this up forever, only so many intercepting units, after all--hopefully shoot down rockets and have a perpetual air raid siren-laden climate of fear?

"Make yourselves available for talks without precondition, try and solve some of your neighbour's practical issues, be a good neighbour."

Doesn't a necessary precondition have to be...a ceasefire? I think that's fair, don't you? If your enemy won't even agree to THAT, it's not very fair to sit down to talks.

And when they're continuously firing neighbors into your backyard, THEY should, perhaps, have the pressure put on them to be a "good neighbor." That's not neighborly nor is it civilized or fair, whichever side of this you're on.

"It appears that you care little for the people dying and more about one side's PR."

I care about people dying, but I also recognize the practical reality of PR in the social media and globalized age. That's a serious issue, and one that impacts everything from trade and their economy to the safety of their own people.

"Your post about intent doesn't advance the discussion. In conflicts both sides have their preferred targets."

But Hamas is OK with ANY target, as long as they're a Jew, Israeli, or both.

That's not the case with Israel.

That's the thing, it's not as if Israel would "rather" kill Hamas operatives over everyday Palestinians, it's that they ONLY want to kill Hamas, and that they DON'T want to kill Palestinians, hence why they've called homes, dropped leaflets, why they knock before attacking, and on and on and on, they've given warning after warning to civilians--

ALL civilians are targets for Hamas, NO civilians are targets for Israel.

Bullshit.

Care to expand on that oh-so-articulate point, Jamiet?

Israel is attempting to suppress the entire Palestinian population and they are perfectly willing to kill civilians, including children, to achieve that.

Why does the US support the "wrong" side?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Next_Decade_(book)

The US, like most western nations, is interested in preserving its influence in the region. The majority of Islamic nations (referring to nation as a cultural identity, not as a unified state) do not side well with the US, and actively denounce our politics. We do not support the Hamas because if we did, we would be supporting the overthrowal of our entire position in the middle east. We allow Israel to exist, so that we can have a say in the affairs of the region. However, we do not allow Israel to eradicate their insurgency, because a unified, unopposed Israel would likely see our continued influence as a threat to their independence. Hence the ongoing struggle.

"Israel is attempting to suppress the entire Palestinian population and they are perfectly willing to kill civilians, including children, to achieve that."

Back that claim up with more than mere rhetoric, if you're going to make the claim that they're willing to kill CHILDREN, Jamiet.

I've already outlined how badly and against Israel's geo-political aims it is for civilians, and particularly children, to die in this conflict, and that it is Hamas who have in the past and may well yet again benefit from a higher death toll, as it gets them votes, aid, money, and support.

Give me a reason to buy your argument...I've gone to the patient pains of outlining mine and actually presenting one...

If you're going to accuse an army and a people of trying to kill babies and "suppress" an entire people, you'd better do better than that, as frankly, you're condensing one of the most complex and nuanced situations in world politics today into a one sentence soundbite.

So, basically, you're on the level of cable network and social media news.

Perhaps we can do better than that garbage?

"However, we do not allow Israel to eradicate their insurgency, because a unified, unopposed Israel would likely see our continued influence as a threat to their independence."

If not for Putin and Nigee, I'd have to call that one of the dumbest comments on this situation yet--

Israel EXISTS, in large part, because of US support and recognition. It's fair to surmise that without both those factors in 1948, there may not have been a state of Israel period (or a Palestine, for that matter, the region may, as it nearly always has been, have simply been swallowed up by another neighboring state or empire.)

A unified, unopposed Israel would likely jump for joy to still have America as an ally, as not only would it have 1. No enemies for the first time...ever, 2. Have one of the world's biggest trading and military partners, and 3. Have an ally that's been as loyal as can be for nearly 70 years, but 4. They'd get all that AND be rid of that which they've wanted to be rid of since 2006, namely, the Hamas menace that's persistently rocketed their people.

The US is why Israel exists, why it has any legitimacy (however much you choose to give it, even a low amount) and why Israel hasn't lost that many people this time around...1500 rockets. That's a RIDICULOUS amount for so-called "underdogs." If not for the Iron Dome, these death tolls could well be equal. The US funding and assisting with that defense is absolutely crucial to Israeli families, for the most part, being free of mourning today.

What "independence" would US involvement threaten? We're the reason FOR their independence...no Israeli out there thinks we're seriously going to come and start a military operation against them, or take their state away from them...

What are you even babbling about?

And I see NO condemnation here of those 1500 rocket attacks...

NO mention of the persistent bombing attacks that Israel lives with...

And in just the last couple days, NO mention of the tunnels that Israel is going in to destroy, and the fact that Hamas sent 13 operatives through one two days or so ago, had those operatives surface at a kibbutz, and had not Israeli troops been there, well, there's a kibbutz FULL of innocent Israeli citizens they could have killed.

And that's one--ONE--attempt through one--ONE--tunnel.

That is rampant, and THAT is the reason this became a ground offensive, that and Hamas' refusal to honor even a ceasefire that was conducted for the benefit of Palestinians.

Why don't you condemn them for that? Israel honored a ceasefire for humanitarian reasons...I see no mention of that...

It seems to me, Jamiet, that you have a very simplistic view of the situation--one so simple I daresay its content and intellectual quality might just barely fit into that whopping one-liner of yours above. Is that really fair and adequate coverage of this situation, or is it a pithy line?

You really need to write less, obiwanobiwan. If anything I think you regressed compared to when I was last here a few months ago.

No...I like Obi just how he is. He has inspired a wonderful villian in my story...heh heh.

^Then really, I have fulfilled my purpose in life...

Make it a good story, krellin, I'd hate to be a shit villain in a shit story. >:D

A question that springs to mind is this. If a Hamas terrorist cell got into Israel and hid itself amongst Israeli civilians, what would the Israeli government do to get rid of them?

Now, I'm not sure what method they would use, but I am pretty damn sure they wouldn't use airstrikes and blow them and the civilians to kingdom come. Now, I am confident that the Israeli military genuinely regret civilian deaths, but it seems rather clear that they don't regret them anything like as much as they should do. Yes, they don't activity target them, but they conduct their campaign well aware that many civilians will be killed and consider it a price worth paying.

Obi is right though. Far too little condemnation is given to Hamas and their supporters. They also know their actions will lead to civilian deaths. They also see it as a price worth paying.

Both sides very eager for others to pay a high price on their behalf, but I'll be damned if I can work out what they're paying the price for. It will neither buy Israel security nor will it buy the Palestinians a better life.

@Octavious:

1. I get the feeling that the Israelis have something like a "better them than us" attitude with regards to civilian deaths...which is on the one hand admittedly cold, but on the other hand only exists because they have the fear of the "than us" part. I think it's fair to say that no one amongst the everyday Israelis and Palestinians wants to see children or babies or mothers killed...it's just human instinct not to want that. It's Hamas on the one hand and the far-right Israeli settlers in the West Bank on the other hand that don't care about that...

Which is why I support Israel in this Gaza operation (where Hamas is the offending party) and not in the West Bank (where Israeli settlers are largely the offending party in the moral wrong.) For as much as people and media outlets paint this as an Israeli vs. Palestinian conflict, this is, more fairly, Israel vs. One Faction of the Palestinians...the Palestinians have at least 2-3 prominent factions, Hamas, Fatah, and other parties besides that.

I've already said that I think Hamas needs to be eradicated for any chance of peace to exist in Gaza, because any and all deaths play on the side of and to the benefit of the Hamas government--deaths HELP their political cause, be they Palestinian or Israeli. The PLO in the West Bank is different, and I therefore am more inclined to sympathize with the Palestinians and against the Israeli settlers there...the PLO (mostly) aren't out to hurt or rocket Israelis, but just trying to live, and the Israelis ARE in that instance acting as an encroaching force.

To conflate the two, and thus make this "Israel vs. Palestine," as the media paints it, is inaccurate and unfair...the Israeli view is skewed, as it focuses mainly on blaming a view of Palestinians informed by the Gaza/Hamas Palestinians, whereas the Palestinian advocates are largely advocating for their cause from the West Bank side of things, thus (fairly) view the Israeli encroachments there as wrong, but extend that to declare all Israeli operations as wrong, which I don't see as fair in the instance of the Gaza Strip situation for the aforementioned reasons.

"One Faction of the Palestinians...the Palestinians have at least 2-3 prominent factions, Hamas, Fatah, and other parties besides that."

The reason Israel is destroying Gaza right now is because the Palestinians formed a unity government between the factions. Israel wants to destroy the unity government because it would mean they would be compelled to negotiate, no more excuses. You're hopelessly uninformed about this issue. But keep on cheering on war and death, as you always do.

" I get the feeling that the Israelis have something like a "better them than us" attitude with regards to civilian deaths."

No, at this point Israelis just really really really enjoy seeing Gazans die. There is virtually no threat to their safety at all. As is evident by the fact that they're holding parties and watching the war as if it were a fucking 4th of July celebration.

2. For those who are advocating here for the Palestinian leadership, I have a question--

Where's Abbas?

I have been lectured here that Hamas is part of a "coalition government" with Abbas...well...where is he? Where is this self-proclaimed leader of both sides of this "unified" coalition government? Where is he calling on Hamas to stop their rocket attacks, or to observe a ceasefire?

I'm not saying Abbas is bad--on the contrary, he seems like a figure a reasonable, dove-ish Israeli leader can work with in the future--but I am saying he's been mighty quiet on that front...you'd think he'd want Hamas to at least observe that 5-hour ceasefire when it'd be for the service of the Palestinians, ie, the people he's supposed to represent, yes?

3. Cruel as it is to say, I'm almost inclined to think Israel caught "a break" with MH17 being shot down. That crash has dominating news cycles since, Israel/Gaza, which should be the first story, as severe as a ground invasion is, is now always the second story, and so it's getting less exposure. What's more, both Obama and other international leaders seem a tad more lenient towards Israel on this ground offensive, in that they're not immediately condemning it and instead urging restraint and an end as quickly as possible...there's an interesting divide between popular opinion (which tends to favor the Gazans, as is natural when a group is as beset with tragedy on all sides as they) and the opinion of world leaders (who seem to either disagree with Israel but not enough to stop it, or else, like Obama, see why Israel wants to do what it wants to do here in this tunnel operation, and is thus urging restraint rather than outright asking Israel to cease.)

I'm therefore inclined to believe that the masses, in the age of social media, are being informed by slogans and memes and easily-digestible one-liners reducing this (ironically) to a David and Goliath sort of thing, without mentioning all the sins of Hamas, whereas Egypt, the US, and other leaders know full well why Israel is (fairly angry with Hamas, want to see Hamas gone, but likewise want to minimize the amount of civilian death...

The masses want Israel to cease, whereas the political leaders want Israel to continue, but as carefully and for them to wrap things up as quickly and with as few civilian deaths as possible, as they too see the need of ridding the Strip of Hamas, for no peace plan can be forged with Hamas at the table--Israel won't allow it, and Hamas can't even agree to a ceasefire or with other parties such as Egypt (who no one condemns, despite the fact their sealing off the southern border of Gaza because they ALSO dislike Hamas is a reason many Gazans have no where to go...it makes sense for Israel to seal its border during a war, meaning that southern border for Gaza on Egypt is the only way Gazans could go, except Egyptians, also disliking Hamas and not wanting this mess in their own, already-troubled backyard, have shut the door.)

"But keep on cheering on war and death, as you always do."

Funny, I thought you'd +1 me and sing my praises...

What with your love of conquest and all--explain again how "conquest" and "war" are two totally different things? I never get tired of hearing a self-proclaimed peace advocate likewise advocate for conquest...it's so cute... :3

"I have been lectured here that Hamas is part of a "coalition government" with Abbas...well...where is he? Where is this self-proclaimed leader of both sides of this "unified" coalition government? Where is he calling on Hamas to stop their rocket attacks, or to observe a ceasefire?"

He's been calling for since the word go. Stop reading CNN and maybe you'd get a clue as to what is going on in the world.

"it makes sense for Israel to seal its border during a war, meaning that southern border for Gaza on Egypt is the only way Gazans could go, except Egyptians, also disliking Hamas and not wanting this mess in their own, already-troubled backyard, have shut the door.)"

Right, it makes sense for Israel to rampage through Gaza and call on Gazans to "evacuate" while sealing off all the borders, all the while blaming the fact that Gazans have no where to go on the very people who have no control over the borders.

You're disgusting.

Really, Putin, I couldn't care less what you say anymore, you really entertain me...

You lost ALL credibility in both insisting the MH17 thing was a Ukrainian/Western false flag trick when all the evidence points to the contrary AND when you came out in support of conquest...but take an issue with Israeli offensives into Gaza.

Again--it's cute. Your bending over backwards to try and self-justify is as cute and back-breaking a gymnastics act as I've ever seen--9.5 (I'd give you a 10, but I was bought off by a crooked French judge, sorry.)

"What with your love of conquest and all--explain again how "conquest" and "war" are two totally different things? I never get tired of hearing a self-proclaimed peace advocate likewise advocate for conquest...it's so cute... :3"

War is to conquest what flour is to cake. Cake is not flour.

But more to the point, you're a blood engorged war parasite. You're absolutely drunk with blood. You're an illiterate version of Christopher Hitchens.

"Stop reading CNN and maybe you'd get a clue as to what is going on in the world."

I have quoted, since this started--

BBC, CNN, MSNBC, FOX, Reuters, the AP, Yahoo, ABC, and other sources.

But, none of them are Russia One, or the North Korean News Agency, so of course they're all wrong, terribly, terribly wrong...

Guys, we need to find Putin a girlfriend (or a boyfriend, whatever his orientation) because I really think his destiny is to end up with his significant other cursing that damned "Moose and Squirrel!"

("That's right, Mr. Peabody!)

"credibility in both insisting the MH17 thing was a Ukrainian/Western false flag trick when all the evidence points to the contrary AND when you came out in support of conquest."

All the evidence? What evidence? The rebels do not possess Buk missiles and never have. You're a compulsive liar who never reads anything but propaganda. This is a clear-cut false flag since Ukraine was getting their ass handed to them in the East, and now all of a sudden war sluts like you are back in the game calling for intervention. Just like the chemical weapons false flag in Syria.

interesting note, on ukraine, ron paul speaks out on how we are blaming russia for this, and points to isis using western (US) weapons. furthermore, the ukrainian government has been shelling lugansk and various towns, killing dozens of civilians. something not reported in the west.

shooting down the plane, was a tragedy, unfortunate, but whoever did it shouldn't really be held accountable...

incidentally, what happened when america shot down the iranian civilian plane?

"I have quoted, since this started--

BBC, CNN, MSNBC, FOX, Reuters, the AP, Yahoo, ABC, and other sources."

Really? And they all couldn't come up with any reports about Abbas calling for a ceasefire?

That speaks to their lack of quality then. Or your lack of reading ability.

"Guys, we need to find Putin a girlfriend (or a boyfriend, whatever his orientation) because I really think his destiny is to end up with his significant other cursing that damned "Moose and Squirrel!""

Stop pandering, you war slut. It's pathetic. Nobody is impressed by you. Even if they hate me they still think you're a fucking buffoon.

"War is to conquest what flour is to cake."

But...but you NEED FLOUR TO MAKE CAKE...

Therefore, by your own analogy...you'd need war (the thing you despise) to make conquest (the thing that you love.)

Oh...this is fun...go on, Putin...you're so smart and insightful... :3

"You're an illiterate version of Christopher Hitchens."

1. You're the one that just failed a basic, 4th grade-level analogy

2. I'll take ANY comparison to Hitch as a compliment.

Ukraine has been bombing eastern Ukraine with their planes but somehow the eastern Ukrainians are to blame for the plane getting shot down. They're the ones who began this military operation and they're the ones who let the civilian airliner in to begin with. Where was Ukrainian air traffic control?

"But...but you NEED FLOUR TO MAKE CAKE..."

Cake is a solution to the problem of flour. You want never-ending flour and no cake. You want never ending war and no solution. And you're making hay out of this because you know you're a big enthusiast for death, destruction, mayhem, and murder.