@bo

ok... let's say i DO accept the right for abortion.

if you admit it's a life, you can EASILY save: then I have zero problems calling that person an ungrateful cunt/whore/bitch/ETC.

b/c if my mom were to die b/c of an easy surgery with little risk to him: I'd be fucking pissed. He LET her die. It's his right, sure. Still an Ass


@TrPrado

horrible argument once again. Brain waves are we have for life. also: i mean sentience more than consciousness perhaps, but the idea you an have brain functions even when you are unconscious.

brain dead people are another matter. they can NEVER wake up/feel/sense//perceive

@bo

sorry i should have rephrased:

that's your opinion that that is right, and Correct. better? grammar happy much?

and I already said: first 2 weeks are fine. i'm not 100% against it

Sure, James, if you want to call a woman that just had an abortion all of those things, that is your right under the First Amendment. Karma be damned, of course.

Likewise, if I refused to give the only kidney on the planet that would work for my mother because I'm afraid of the incredibly small likelihood that I contract an iatrogenic MRSA infection while under the knife, you can do the same to me. That is your right.

Just as bodily autonomy is your right.

But brain functions don't inherently mean life. If the baby is pulled from the body and put on machines, if it reached fetal viability could survive, though would be quite premature.

No, my opinion is not that bodily autonomy is a right. That is a fact. It is a right that is not always given in the way that it should be in this nation on a number of levels. Abortion is just one of them. The list of things that bodily autonomy should cover but for whatever reason does not is far, far longer - drugs, assisted suicide, etc. I could go on for weeks about it.

"if you admit it's a life, you can EASILY save: then I have zero problems calling that person an ungrateful cunt/whore/bitch/ETC.

b/c if my mom were to die b/c of an easy surgery with little risk to him: I'd be fucking pissed. He LET her die. It's his right, sure. Still an Ass"

The analogue of your hypothetical position here would be "pro-choice legally but anti-abortion morally" and that is your prerogative.

Which is perfectly okay.

I mean, no. It isn't okay to call them ungrateful cunt/whore/bitch/ETC. At all.

But it is legal, up to the point where harassment law kicks in.

Electric signals by themselves are worth shit. Reflexes are worth shit. Viability is ~20-24 weeks. The neurological framework for consciousness develops around ~24-28 weeks, which is not even saying consciousness itself has developed by then. And again, there's testing that can only be done after 20 weeks that can signal the need for an abortion.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/when-does-consciousness-arise/

@TrPrado

but the baby is only viable at around 22 weeks (shaky number, i forget what it is that's not important right now though) when I am saying sentience is WAY back at 12.

the "machines" can't allow a baby to develop all the way back at 12 weeks.

@bo

yeah, i'm much more fine with drug rights AND assisted suicide. however, abortion i don't agree with simply b/c your bodily autonomy is ONLY called into question b/c you made a choice:

have sex (once again, rape is a different matter... etc. etc.)

that means you have a certain % chance of getting pregnant. then you have 2 weeks until the baby is even a separate chromosomal life.

then you have 10 weeks until it has consciousness. i personally think an abortion is ok during this timer period, other might disagree, eh: different argument.

but now you've come into a 10 week period where the baby is alive BECAUSE OF YOUR ACTIONS. you have TAKEN RESPONSIBLY OF A LIFE BY NOW.

and I think after all that time, you shouldn't legally be allowed to abort, b/c it's alive now, you've accepted control. notice i say should. my opinion

Yanik:
So I don't consider it alive. Also, fetal viability is officially a case by case thing. Limits on late term abortions are based on one of:
Fetal viability
Weeks
Trimester
Fetal viability is the one with the strongest scientific basis.

@lethologica

that's b/c the human brain doesn't develop it's brain in the embryo like other creatures do. reflexes are from the Cerebellum, whereas consciousness arises from the brain stem. the cerebellum in human takes loner to form because of it's complexities and the ever developing skull and blood brain barrier. memory develops around 22 weeks, but that's also not the same part of the brain as consciousness either. consciousness is earlier. consciousness is LIFE.

@ bo - so what? It's also legal to think all abortion should be illegal. Doesn't make it more or less OK

@TrPrado

after 16 weeks is legally late term, just to clarify

A weeks argument is a weak argument.

I don't like the idea of abortions. Especially those done for reasons of inconvenience.

What if my parent's had decided that they didn't want children at the time I was conceived? Or any of my siblings? I don't like it.

@DO

Hahahaha you're getting offended at me insulting people? THAT is the harsh side? nice.

@Floodgates

that's not the strongest argument though.

2 things must be determined:

1. when do we consider it a separate conscious life
2. does the mother have responsibility for it

i say 12 weeks, and yes. sorry, you fucked, you ran the risk, you had 12 weeks to abort it, now in my book: you got a life, you've accepted it.

legally: no. but i'm sticking to my guns

(rape is a special circumstance, as well as viability and risk to life ETC.) - i have to keep posting this or else someone will bring it up i just know it

James, I'll let you brood on the fact that you are wildly uninformed about how many different scenarios can lead to a woman and her partner considering an abortion and get back to you later.

DO, of course it doesn't make it permissible or mean that he isn't as much of a whatever-word-you-want.

@James - what? Both not being ok with abortion and insulting women for getting them is bad. I don't have to pick one.

@Flood - what is your point? No one likes the idea of abortions, no one wants to fuck their body up like that, but often it is necessary. If your parents didn't want you then they wouldn't have had you and you would have no conscience to care or recognize that. If they didn't want you and you were forced to be born don't you think your life would be unnecessarily horrible?

Ah, man, you've opened the floodgates now.

@JamesYanik:
"consciousness is earlier."

I did you the courtesy of offering a cite. Please return the favor instead of simply contradicting my cited assertion.

@DemonOverlord

let's get something straight, i'm not 100% against all abortions. at a bout 24 weeks (is it? fact check anyone? i don't remember) the fetus is viable for a caesarian section. at 12 weeks it is alive: aka, a life, has life, has consciousness. that's a 12 week period i say no to abortions (EXCEPT IN SOME CASES WITH RISK, RAPE, AGE, OTHER FACTORS ETC.)

ok fine. let's not start the free speech thing again.

@bo

oh yes. I've NEVER considered that. congratulations. you've beaten me.

except in my parenthesis.

"(rape is a special circumstance, as well as viability and risk to life ETC.)"
"(once again, rape is a different matter... etc. etc.)"

what do YOU think Etc. means?

I'm talking about abortions b/c the mother who doesn't want to wait until 24 weeks to get the C-section and put the kid up for adoption.

and i know that's not even the majority: but it's a decent sized number that i'm against

@Demon - I'm just saying I don't like them. Sanctity of life and all that.

@lethologica

i apologize, but in 2 earlier posts i had already specified 12 weeks. this is debated, but it's much earlier than 24 weeks

i am sorry something's come up and i must go, talks to you gents another time

Abortion is actually the Godwin's law of webdip.

Weeks are more scientifically sound than trimesters, but there's enough wiggle room with weeks that citing a specific week isn't going to be inherently accurate.