Yeah, I'm not religious either, I never really got the whole god thing personally.

bb, quit being such an arsehole. Chaqa raised a legitimate point and your response is just saying he has no right to any opinion on the subject because he doesn't agree with you.

Alaska, Colorado, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, Oregon, and Vermont are the only states that don't have some sort of statute limiting late term abortions.

@brainbomb

and thanks for bringing up rape shaming...

actually no thanks.

what the hell???

Once fetal viability is reached, why not just adopt the baby out if you can't take care of it?

At the point where it can not live and breathe on its own and needs to be sustained by the use of a woman's body, it most certainly is an issue that has to do with women's rights and health. It is happening inside of her, not some alternate universe.

I don't care how or why someone got pregnant. If there is an unwanted fetus then it should be gotten rid off before it becomes living and viable. Not only for the sake of the woman, but for what could potentially be a hard life for a future child.

My moral convictions just don't allow me to have that same view. All life is precious, and killing a child because it is unwanted is one of the most heinous things to me.

DemonOverlord

if it has consciousness, it's a baby. unwanted babies, you can't just kill. Sorry to the mother, but sex has risk.

if it's rape, that is another scenario

When do you consider the fetus to be alive, Chaqa? I would personally believe it happens at the point of fetal viability, once the fetus is able to sustain life outside of the womb. And from what I can tell DO was arguing from the same viewpoint.

Yeah sorry it's not a baby when inside the mother. It doesn't have any capacity for autonomy or even the ability to breathe or think. It's like if you think that eggs are actually chickens. It's ridiculously silly.

@TrPrado

i disagree: it has consciousness before that. that is an actual life in there, with brain waves, unique chromosomes: just because someone is hooked up to life support doesn't mean they're dead, ESPECIALLY if they have brain waves...

and um... unique chromosomes. that one is more given

@DemonOverlord

wrong. it has electrical discharges inside it's brain at 12 weeks. it's not developed, but the consciousness is there. week 5 the heart is pumping blood

science.


ALSO sorry about the earlier post, i made a mistake, is meant to say first 1-2 WEEKS - not days - fertilization is occurring

@Prado: I'm not sure if I could put an exact time on it, Prado. I don't think I could bring myself to advocate for it at any stage.

@DO: that's an awfully grim view on things.

also: conjoined twins don't have autonomy

therefore they're not life? bad argument try again

@Chaqa

first two weeks i'm fine with the pill. it's still a sperm and egg at that point. Zero problem there

Speaking of autonomy, people who do not support the right to have an abortion give more autonomy to a dead body than they do to a living, breathing woman.

@james Ok since it has so much capacity clearly we should just remove the fetus from women who don't want to go through pregnancy and it can develop and live on its own, right?

"Late term abortions sicken me."

Yeah, they sicken most people. That's why they barely ever happen. Something like four doctors in the entire goddamn country provide the service, and it's pretty much exclusively done when the various viability tests done past 20 weeks show fatal or extremely serious birth defects, or threat to the mother's life. It's extremely expensive, and the doctors have to work behind multiple panes of bulletproof glass, and there are people who need those services and can't get them because of idiots who think late-term abortion is something weak-minded liberal women get on a whim, and also health insurance bullshit.

But sure, let's moralize about the evils of late-term abortion, because the would-be mothers who are dealing with what's basically a miscarriage-in-waiting that might also kill them *really fucking need the extra pressure*.

Ass.

@bo

BUT IS IT DEAD?

i've still yet to see anyone dispute me on this! 12 weeks we have electrical discharge in brain. that is consciousness. NOT DEAD!

You can be an asshole and not donate perfectly healthy, viable organs that could save many lives already in progress when you are *dead* and don't need them anymore, or you can be an asshole and not donate perfectly usable, transmittable blood that could save many lives already in progress when you have plenty and can afford to spare some, but dear lord you're going to have an abortion? You're going to hell.

Also, have we brought up the violinist analogy yet? Probably not, since the discussion right now is murder this and life that.

There's also the small detail that the most utilitarian position for someone who is against abortion is being pro-choice and pro-contraception, not the other way around.

Brain signals occur in unconscious people, Yanik.

yes, but this life YOU CREATED.

it's not simple charity to an unknown stranger.

James, are you joking? On your drivers' license, you have this little button in the corner that classifies you as an organ donor. Most people are organ donors. Everyone should be an organ donor. Regardless, you have the right not to donate your organs. Why? It's your mother fucking body. You might be dead, but it is still your body and you still have autonomy over your body. Ten other people who need something that you have might die because it's your mother fucking body, but it is still your mother fucking body. Those ten people may be heroes. They may be soldiers or firemen or volunteers with Doctors Without Borders, I don't give a shit. Still your body.

So guess what? The question of whether or not a fetus is dead or not is irrelevant, because bodily autonomy trumps the life of another human being, no matter how old they are, child or adult, man or woman, hero or convict. It does not matter.

@TrPrado

so you can kill anyone who is unconscious? WTF?

Unknown stranger my ass. I could be the only matching kidney donor in the world for my own mother who is dying of kidney failure, and I'm allowed to tell my own goddamn mother that she is gonna die because I'm not willing to give up a kidney, which doesn't kill me. IT IS MY BODY.

I'm saying brain waves aren't nearly as big a deal as you think.

@bo

that's your opinion. if there is another human life inside of you (once again, assuming it's not a risk to her life or rape, etc. etc.) THAT YOU FUCKED TO CREATE.

you are responsible for.

I can't adopt a newborn: WHO CANT SURVIVE WITHOUT ME. and then kill it, saying "why should i donate breast milk, my time, my energy?"

No, James. I did not give a single opinion. I gave a load of facts, that you just dismissed as opinion, even though they are all legally true. Find one thing that I said about bodily autonomy that is my opinion other than that everyone should be an organ donor. Go. Off with you.