@ Beetle,
There's a bit of a problem with your theology. If we could do anything that would help us get to heaven by works, then God probably wouldn't have needed to send His son to die for us. But heaven is a perfect place, and even the tiniest bad thing we do would outwhiegh all of the good. God sent His son to take on the punishment for us, so that we could get there by faith. so between the two, i would choose faith over works, because it's the only way. I'm rusty on the references, but in the New Testament, Jesus says, "I am the Way the Truth and the Light. No man comes to the Father, exept by me." what he's saying there, is that if you don't believe that He is the only begotten son of God, then you won't be able to get to God.

@ dexter,
Science can't prove anything. All it can do is rule other things out. so no, the Bible hasn't actually been proven, but it has more evedence for it than any other religious document. the best one that i can think of off the top of my head is the dead sea scrolls. they are scrolls that comply with daniels prophocies. The other thing about the Bible, is that it has had more prophocies come true than any other religion that has ever existed. some things have yet to pass, but i believe they will. probably the biggest thing, is the death and ressurection of Jesus Christ. there were over 500 valid eyewitnesses to his ressurection, after he had just been publicly crucified on the cross. when He was put in his grave, there was a gigantic boulder put in front of the tomb, and there were roman guards around it day and night. on the third day, the guards were gone, the stone was rolled away from the tomb, and Jesus's body was gone. after that came the 500 eyewitnesses.

so if it's a question of who we are and where we came from, it's this: We are masterpieces, created by the Holy God in His image. We are the people that God put on this earth that He made in 6 days. We are fearfully and wonderfully made, and we are His creation.

also, dexter, "...when do you decide where the bathwater ends and the baby begins."

....that's a creepy analogy.....

I think gullability is a good substitute for faith. if i told you i was the son of god would you believe me?

BTW CRAZY: Here's an interesting link on comparing Jesus to Buddha. http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen045.html check it out

@jwalters93, sorry for the analogy... you know the saying, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater? well, wheat and chaff might have been a better one... anyway, same idea.

Science, actually logic, rules out the Bible being a completely dependable source. Being that it is the only source for much of what is told in the Bible, including some pretty key events (like the Flood, Exodus, and the census that required a mass migration) and being that some things are demonstrably fictitious (like the creation stories... and the Flood) and that Christ's claimed miracles are not substantiated elsewhere and that the gospels even contradict each other and that claims of miracles witnessed by multitudes are not unique to Christ's story... and that claims of miracles have never been substantiated (and I believe by their very nature are impossible) for these and many reasons I do not believe in the story of Christ's divinity. I went to a magic show a while back... and there were far more than 500 witnesses. But I think people in those days were on average a bit less sophisticated and more likely to believe in the miraculous (there are plenty enough now). Indeed there was quite a longing for a savior at the time... and a number of people at the time claimed to be and then were exposed as false messiahs... Jesus may have even believed he was the Messiah... there are people now who believe they are Jesus' second coming (Rev. Moon, among them)... him saying he is the way doesn't make it so. He seemed to think that God would come down and show himself ("why hast thou forsaken me?") when he was on the cross... and he seemed to think he would be back within the lifetimes of his followers (he said he would be). So there are a couple of prophesies that not only didn't come true but can never come true because the time has passed. If Jesus' own prophesies are prone to error (even assuming biblical accuracy), how are we to believe any prophesies?

"If someone gave me that book I would read it carefully, check its provenance and, if it's the book I think it is, come to the conclusion that it is the most unremittant hogwash."

- i hope you can see how some atheists come to the same conclusion about the bible.

I do see the book of mormon as written by a man.
Whether I feel any connection between the words and my personal expierence of reality will have an effect on whether i think these men were infact inspired by God, in any sense.

More importantly, it is one book of how a man thinks we should live our day-to-day life, and thus should be geiven some consideration. About as much as any other religious text IMHO.

I'm fairly sure you can't prove the bible is more inspired by God than the book of mormon, or the Koran, or the Talmid or...

Besides... I don't even think it's healthy to believe in prophesies... because that suggests fate. And if there is free will (and not fate) it would be nice to not be haunted by prophesy... wherein some of the believers are doing their best to make them come true (apocalypse). There is a great truth to self-fulfilling prophesies. Religious fatalism and hunger for signs of the second coming (including the apocalypse) is a very negative thing. That is the sort of thing that fuels terrorism and war.

"I do not believe in the story of Christ's divinity."

Jesus of Nazereth was just as divine as everyone else, I mean look at the bible, if God made adam, and also made jesus, then we are all children of God.

Lift up your hearts, you are divine, and capable of great works of Good!

it, not he, if anything made energy. humans have evolved from simpler forms of life. to dexter, spot on! check out religulous for more on this. Religion is a self-fulfilling apocalyptic prophecy, even if it can do good. I could match orathaic quote for quote on Jesus' sayings, let me start with this one: I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword
here's a link of jesus and his apocalyptic nature
http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/paul/jesus_apoc.htm

crazy - you still failed to address my main point a while back, the buddha argument is just our little side chat, which i will not give in on because i know that you are wrong. please go back and check it or i will have to post in anew.

@Orthaic - i hope you can see how some atheists come to the same conclusion about the bible.
Yes. I don't recall ever claiming on this forum any kind of authority for the bible. I've asked that relationships be considered as evidence and suggested that rejecting God without making any attempt to find out about Him is a little narrow minded. Oh yes, I suggested that one might not expect modern science in an ancient text.

I claim your are capable of Good, i think you are probably capable of evil too. (both also happen to be subjective things, which only exist as concepts in our minds)

@Para - piped: fair enough. I do see that bein narrow-minded can be a problem for some people, but it can also be useful, a horse with blinders is more useful to the city he lives in.

Humans who do not worry about the existance of God can get on with their lives perfectly happily. As can those who blindly believe in God.

This is true, but not neccesarily interesting.

"I claim your are capable of Good, i think you are probably capable of evil too. (both also happen to be subjective things, which only exist as concepts in our minds) "
ORATH- DING DING DING, thank you for bringing this up. You can be perfectly happy either way, though if you can suffer your logic being harmed then the religious path seems more tidy and organized and scintillating.

In a real sense I believe that we are all divine.
Bear with me. I do not believe in a spirit realm. I believe that the natural world is sufficient explanation for everything we experience and thus a separate spiritual realm is unnecessary... and thus I do not believe in it. Similarly I do not believe in a separate god (being part of the spirit realm) as I don't believe that it is necessary to explain anything... even those things that I do not currently understand (such as the "Big Bang"). Faced with something I don't understand I try to be as honest with myself as I can and not come up with a quick answer to patch over the uncomfortable mystery. I like questions. I am a fan of the Socratic and Eastern philosophies that value questions as the way to truth. So... here we are - in a natural world that has strange things like consciousness in it... and emotions. What could possibly explain our consciousness? Our heart? Strangely enough, those in the western religions cannot believe that these things could be part of our world. They actually believe that so strongly that they see the existence of consciousness and love as being *proof* (in a faith sense of the word for sure, and for some in an evidentiary sense of the word). I, on the other hand, have no problem concluding that consciousness and love and other emotions and such are a part of this universe. I don't see this universe as a dead, lifeless expanse of stupid matter that requires (like a puppet) a hand behind the scenes somewhere to give it life... requires an external power source. Batteries sold separately. In my view, life doesn't need spirit world batteries... The universe and life come completely integrated where matter and energy are forms of the same thing (physicists support me on this) and where life is about relationships and perceptions and not about stodgy old matter or some static soul that is 100% mine and stays in my corpse until I'm dead - animating it. In my view energy flows through me... I am not made of the same stuff I was 10 years ago... Each time I breathe I change a bit of what makes me... Each time I think or act I change and I change those things around me. I am always in motion. No static ego or soul for me. Perhaps we are the thoughts of God... but only if God=universe. I hesitate to use the word God in my description because it immediately conjures images and meanings that I don't mean... it suggests separateness, and parent in the sky, and teller of fantastic tales and tester of faith, and indifferent overseer, and egocentric being wanting to be loved and ready to damn those who don't pass the test, etc. The Universe is fine by me. I don't worship it... as far as I know, it, as a whole, is unconscious anyway... but it is composed of many wonderful things - indeed everything I know of exists there/here. And it contains consciousness and love and wonder... and it don't need batteries to do that. Pretty darn amazing. Almost divine (though again I hesitate to use the word lest I be misunderstood). The universe is far more wonderful and mysterious and amazing than any thing I've dreamed up... and besides, dreams don't satisfy the way reality does. Cool thing is, I'm apparently connected to this reality - of course - and when I die my ego will go away - but really, isn't a lot of life's lessons about how to let go of our ego anyway? Seems to me I've got it pretty good here. This is one heck of a place. I don't have to wish for something else.

@ ottovanbis,
No, i wouldn't believe you. I do however believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, because there were actual real life miracals that happened. people who had been blind, lame or dumb all of their lives were healed and made whole. Even people who didn't believe that Christ is the son of God in that time couldn't get around those facts. they had to admit that Jesus could perform miracals.

@ dexter,
the funny thing about the Flood is that a lot of other civilizations have very similar stories about such a flood. i know that's not much in the way of evidence, but it's something to chew on.

yes, we have free will. but, there are things that will happen, wether we want it to or not. prophecies are these things. i'm not saying i believe everything that anyone predicts, i just believe that the Bible is the Holy Word of God, and what He says will happen, will. also, yes this world is amazing, but the Bible says that heaven is a perfect place, a place with no sorrow, or anger or hurt. it's a million times better than earth, and we will be there for eternity. why wouldn't you wish for that? i mean it really astounds me that people would reject a perfect place, somewhere that God say you can get with faith the size of a mustard seed. i personally don't understand it. don't get me wrong, i'm not saying i don't like you for it, i'm just constantly surprised by it.

oh, and that analogy?

.....methinks that cybersarcasm is hard........

just out of curiosity, what would you do in this position?

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=18995#gamePanel

i'm russia.

"I am not made of the same stuff I was 10 years ago" - for correctness, i must point out that some cells do not grow old and die every ten years. Our spinal nerves being very hard to repair for this reason, a cut on the hand will repair, new skin cells will develop and some scarring may occur - showing the different origin of those sturctures - however many brain cells do not 'refresh' otherwise we might find it harder to store longterm memorys, and easier to teach an old dog new tricks. (biologists please correct me if i'm wrong here)

As a physicist yes, i do support the idea that matter an energy are one. (that the speed of light squared is the ratio of one to the other is really interesting, but that is just one af the really odd/cool things about relativity.

"Each time I breathe I change a bit of what makes me" - i disagree - the atoms that make up your body do change, and over time the person that you are (the connections between your various neurons) will also change, but the idea of you is not defined by those things. It is the idea which is important.

I know ideas of being able to duplicate a person are disturbing to some, because the violate the idea of our uniqeness - however it is only an important idea BECAUSE it is so hard to create copies - if it was easy to create people (in a lab or at home in your kitchen) it would change how we think about a 'person' and by changing the idea our world would become very different...

i digress, the point is the idea of 'me' is something which doesn't really care about which atoms make you up.

"@ dexter,
the funny thing about the Flood is that a lot of other civilizations have very similar stories about such a flood. i know that's not much in the way of evidence, but it's something to chew on."

the funny thing is that there is geological evidence for many local flooding events.

@jwalters93: not rejecting the idea as something I don't want.

I'm just not deciding to believe in the world I want.

Acually I am guilty of that a bit, I want the world to be inhabited by nice people, and sometimes i act like it is, i can be cheated, or stolen from because of my false beliefs - however i know the risks, i choose to live believe the kind of world i want to live in is possible, and strive to make it a reality.

Why would i waste my time worrying about what happens after i die? What i do while alive will definitely have consequences to this world. I care about this world. i'll deal with the next one if it happens.

On a lighter note, believer friends, how does your Faith affects your way of playing Diplomacy? This is just a game of course, and the lies and stabs are not serious (or should not be), but there are still real. My question is probably naive, but I wonder what makes you enjoy that game. There are plenty of "safe" games out there. Why this one? This is not an attack. I am just curious.

Ithink we dealt with this in another thread recently. The consensus was basically in a game in which this is expected then there is really nothing underhanded about it. It's just playing the game according to the rules. Pastoralan's analogy is a pretty good one. Tackling people is not generally condoned, but while playing football (American) it's perfectly fine.

@otto

I knew I could goad you into looking something up, sooner or later. :-)



So? you've cited a website.

That's nice.


What's your commentary? What supports your position, and how does it do so?

"Percy Jackson & the Olympians: The Lightning Thief" is a pretty good movie btw. We'll hear the usual about it not following the book, but movies never do otherwise they'd be 7 or 8 hours long.

Did you check the link, it just makes a lot of comparisons, too many for me to talk about here at one time

I did, but it's hardly fair for me to do all the analysis. Let's hear your argument. Your interpretation of the information there is going to be important. I'm guessing that you don't believe that Jesus Christ was a reincarnation of Sidhartha Gautauma, as the website suggests. It seemed to me more that you were trying to assert that Christianity was an offshoot of sorts, or in some way based on Bhuddhism. I'm having to guess though. Can you clear it up?

I'll elucidate in the morning, it will take some time.

We can go point by point. It doesn't have to be all at once.

Wow, I started this forum post because i was bored and I just realized it has over 300 replies. I love you guys.

Nice to see you in another spot, ottovonbis =) Sorry about dragging that game out another year.

To contribute to the discussion:
I'm going to have to agree with ottovonbis. After spending 8 years in catholic school, I finally realized how illogical and retarding religion is. I'm sure there's been plenty of discussion over problems which religion causes, as well as logical inconsistencies. I think one important point to note is that thousands of religions have been created across humanity--among isolated populations. I think this says something about human nature and the search for hope and a better life. As such, it casts some serious doubt upon the credibility of belief in the supernatural.