Watch for the move, and the sequels. This is better than Hollywood.

Masad can get away with it, because they are from a small country that is besieged. MI5 and CIA are easly portrayed as bullies no matter the results or the cause.

Thats not my question Warsprite. I don't understand why the British government is complaining.... or is it all for show?

Show of course. They have been doing the Brit's and US's dirty work for decades, and are happy to do it. Sure there are elements in the Brit goverment who agree about the c/o forgred passports, but most are secretly high fiving.

That mossad

Well, actually its מוסד
I'm not sure that the English phonetics is important, kind of like how there are multiple English spellings for Hanukkah.

I am waiting for the movie.

I think the problem here is that organizations like the CIA and MI5 generally outsource their mortality work in foreign countries to local talent (despite what you see in the movies), whereas Mossad apparently uses only its own people, no matter where or who the hit is. This is not the first time Mossad has been caught using someone else's passports - they were caught using Canadian passports when they attempted (unsuccessfully) to assassinate another Hamas official a few years ago, and there was an uproar then as well.

I think the big issue about the passports is that Dubia is claiming they weren't forged but were actually stolen passports which leads to concerns for the British citizens (and others) involved. The first step down a long slippery is stealing from visitors to Israel with the last step being killing those visitors to get their passports. Israel has always been an "ends justifies the means" nation when it comes to their own actions. so they could well imprison, torture, or kill anyone, even innocent visitors, if it achieves their goals.

I'm not sure I've seen that allegation anywhere.

Actually Draugnar, I'd like to add I'm stunned that you have managed to somehow jump from the killing of a self-proclaimed murderer to killing innocent tourists in Israel.... Your anti-Israeli bias (which you have documented in previous threads) has hit a new high.

I'm amazed that something like this actually happened. haha I was only like 2 when mossad tried to kill that other hamas officer in Jordan, and so I had never heard of it. I'm kind of excited about the movie too. =P

And I definitely agree that alot of the "outrage" over the passports (funny how no one actually cares about the guy that was killed. lol) is just a show. I'm sure that western intelligence agencies were just as happy to see this guy dead as Israel was.

I think part of the issue here, DJ, is fourfold:

* Dubai would *love* any possible distraction from their slow motion market meltdown, and they *also* don't need to risk ticking off any of their neighbors who may find their Dubai assets becoming totally worthless very soon
* Dubai also has no real love for Israel, so they have no motivation to soft peddle the investigation. They may have no exception *ire* for them either, but if this guy had been killed here, or somewhere in Europe, it's quite possible that the Powers That Be wouldn't be making an exceptional stink about it.
* There's just a buttload of evidence here - it's not a matter of a few people slipping in and out undetected, they left evidence all over the place. And you have to give the authorities props for doing a decent job of assembling it all.
* The passports weren't just forged, they were stolen, and that feeds into identity theft fears.Unfortuantely in this day and age you pretty much *have* to steal an identity, as complete fakes would probably be red flagged in any number of countries.

Now, Israel has raised a good point that there isn't any proof they did the deed, but if they actually *didn't* do the deed this time they would have been better off flatly stating so, instead of the usual ambiguity policy.

Now, I'm not going to cry crocodile tears over this guy, even though I'm far from convinced that Israel is a 'victim' when it comes to the whole Palestinian issue, but I'm also not going to cry if the assassins end up in jail. They took a risk when they chose to kill him, part of that risk is ending up in the slammer. You don't get a free pass when you pull the same stunts you feel your opponents are engaged in.

Are they currently being detained in Dubai? Or did they make it out safe?

No, I jumped from stealing passports to committing those acts in the distant future (you know, the long slippery slope). It is similar to the idea that if we give up the simplest of rights, we will eventually give up all our rights. Or if one starts by stealing apples from the corner grocer as at 10, they may progress to robbing banks and killing security guards at 19 if they aren't sufficiently punished/rehabilitated for their actions.

Yes, I am anti-Israeli (I don't hide it), but I do thank you, Dingle (and I mean it) for not calling it anti-semetic. Israel is a nation, Judaism is a religion, and I don't let my disdain for one influence my views of the other.

As far as the allegations from Dubai:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/02/18/uk.dubai.hamas.murder/index.html

An excerpt follows...

Europeans press Israel for answers after Dubai killing
February 18, 2010 9:25 p.m. EST

London, England (CNN) -- European officials pressed Israel for answers Thursday over the use of fraudulent passports by suspects in the killing of a top Hamas official, following media speculation that Israeli agents were involved.

It came as Interpol made public the photos and fraudulent names of 11 people it said were involved in the murder in Dubai last month. The "red notices" are not international arrest warrants, but are a way of alerting police forces around the world that the suspects are wanted by authorities in the United Arab Emirates.

British and Irish officials met with their respective Israeli ambassadors, and France demanded that Israel explain the use of one French passport in the plot, the French Foreign Ministry said.

British Foreign Secretary David Miliband said Britain was determined to get to the bottom of the passport issue. The Israeli ambassador to London, Ron Prosor, met at the British Foreign Office with Peter Ricketts, the head of Britain's diplomatic service.

"I was unable to add additional information to Sir Peter Ricketts' request," Prosor told reporters.



Miliband said Ricketts "made clear how seriously we take any suggestion of fraudulent use of British passports," and explained Britain's concern for the British nationals, currently living in Israel, whose passports were apparently used in the plot.

Ricketts told the ambassador "that we wanted to give Israel every opportunity to share with us what it knows about this incident, and we hope and expect that they will cooperate fully with the investigation that has been launched," Miliband said.

Authorities in Dubai released the photos and fraudulent names of 11 members of an alleged hit-squad that killed Mahmoud al-Mabhouh, a founding member of Hamas' military wing, in his Dubai hotel room last month.

The suspects had European passports -- one from France, three from Ireland, six from Britain, and one from Germany, according to police.

A senior United Arab Emirates official involved in the investigation, however, told CNN there are seven more suspects involved -- including two Palestinians -- for a total of 18. The two were arrested in Jordan, according to the official.

The passports used are not fake or forged, but are authentic passports meant for other people, the official said.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This last paragraph says it all. I have seen other comments from Dubai Immigration and Security that stated their people were trained and that these passports went through several countries on the way there and *would* have been caught somewhere along the way. So the allegation is there and it isn't my own.

Stratagos, agreed. If they get caught and end up in jail, thats part of the risk you take when you take up that profession. And I agree that Dubai has ever reason to investigate this as much as possible, to try to convince anyone else that Dubai is not the place to do these things.

I would disagree with the idea that if they didn't do it they should say so... Then every time they didn't say so in the future, that would be an admission by default. They can quietly plead innocence to the British government, but certainly no publicly.
Jman,
All 11 assassins made it out, whereabouts unknown. Two Palestinians accomplices were arrested (in Syria I believe) and extradited to Dubai.

Draugnar,
Would there be any motive for a Dubai official to say "The passports used are not fake or forged, but are authentic passports meant for other people, the official said." if it wasn't true?

Actually, come to think of it, I would think it is highly likely that Mossad has some authentic passports laying around from Britain. I would think the reverse is probably true too. Its already been stated that the pictures and middle names did not match on the passports, so what's the difference?

Ok, well if they got out of the country then the chances of them ever being found (unless, of course, the israeli government ends up being forced to give them up) are close to zero. They almost for certain somewhere in israel, and there's no way that israel is going to let them be extracted. They'll get new passports and identities to go with them soon enough and will be able to travel around the world comparatively worry free.

I found this very funny.
Somebody, a has-been Brit politician - we'll give him the initials WH - was on the radio the other day decrying this "extra-judicial" killing when the interviewer - call him JH - said:-
JH:"So you condemn all extra-judicial killings then?"
WH:"Yes of course."
JH: "Even the Americans, when they carry out drone attacks in Pakistan? Attacks which *are* extra-judicial *and* often kill innocent civilians?"
WH: Well ... er... er ... well <back peddle> <back peddle>.

He tried to imply that we *should* support America carrying out extra-judicial killings in a different country to the one where they are actually being attacked, while at the same time saying that Israel should *not* be supported for carrying out *this* extra-judicial killing in a different country to the one where they are actually being attacked. It was so funny listening to him squirm.

Speaker, yeah, that's what is odd. Israel does 'targeted killings', which everyone and their mother condemned in Gaza and now in Dubai, but there's nary a peep when the US kills a family of 12 accidentally when a drone goes off course during an attempted targeted killing.

Dingle, I said they were allegations. Allegations are allegations regardless of motive. Whether they are truthful or tainted by motive is another issue entirely. But the fact is that many of the passports had valid numbers of citizens living in Israel. So, even if they were forged documents, the perpetrators had to get these numbers from somewhere and then committed identity theft by using them. so how did they get the numbers? If it is Mossad, they could get them by monitoring the movements of the individuals they were targetting for theft and getting them unofficially through official channels. If it isn't Mossad, then I think these citizens should fell lucky the assassins chose some kidn of indirect means to get their passport numbers instead of a more direct B&E which, if mistimed, could have lead to bodily harm or even death.

I actually think they probably are forged and Mossad did it by monitoring the movements of many expats until they could get some recorded evidence of the numbers they could then create the fakes with.

As far as the claims they went through all these other countries. It is just as likely that they travelled individually on their own legitimate passports and used different routes and timings to keep the potential "conspiracy" trail to a minimum and only used the forged documents upon entry to Dubai.

Hmmm, seeing as the UAE does not allow entry into their country for Israelis (see the Pe'er saga), how do they expect Mossad to kill someone in their country without forged foreign passports? If they had diplomatic relations with Israel, this killing would have been easier.

This has been going on in the Middle East since the city of Ur, and will going on in the future. Perhaps we should start an official assassins guild, and they can have special assassin passports.

...or perhaps they could study the art of ninjitsu and use their stealth skills to get in and out without need of a passport.

Future techs may give assassins chamaeleon camos. :P

......I've heard that they are developing a weapon that would allow assassins to simply stare at a person, and using those brain waves they would kill the person................ahhhkkkaaayyyy. haha

Yes it's called a wife.

warsprite +1

This alleged assassination highlights why I would make a terrible politician, I just can't make my mind up about it!

On the one hand, all killing is wrong, how are we ever going to be a force for good inthe world if we collude with or condone or don't outright condemn such things.....but on the other hand where were the guys with tennis rackets before the second gulf war? A few guys slipping in with forged passports to take out Sadam and his ilk would've saved so much bloodshed.

On a lighter note, I saw an interweiw with the former head of Mossad who, when asked if he had ever arranged for killings, he replied along the lines of 'no, nor would he do it again!'

You would make a great politician. Since you can't make up your mind, you sit on the fence and make vague statements and you can't be accused of lying.

I would say that the UK annoyance with israel is real, of course everyone knows that intelligence agencies/hit squads need fake identities but its like a case of NIMBY. do it but use somebody else's passports. Dubai is loving this, they get to look like the "good arab" fighting the good fight against Israel. I think Israels mossad has not changed its rulebook from many years ago, they used to get away with all this kind of stuff when dubai and the other arab countries were hicksvilles wit unprofessional, mismanaged tribal governments, times are a changing, dubai is in parts a real country now

UK to Israel. Bad boy! Bad boy! Next time use the neighbors yard.

It's amusing to see the UK's indignation after their long history of dirty tricks on the world stage.

yeah I have to say I'm laughing at the UK's response aswell. haha I like the way you put it warsprite.

I would suggest that the UK is right within its rights to complain about their passports being forged. I expect that you're right and the British do this sort of thing as well, but I'd like to point out that any other nation would be offended were they to catch the Brits at it.

Also, looking at it the other way, what would happen if the British *didn't* bring up the issue? Imagine how the media would deal with it.

On CNN the other day they were interviewing some of the people whose names are on the passports. Some of them actually live in Israel, so it wouldn't be hard for Mosad to get names, nationality and passport numbers. I would also think that it would be easy for Mosad to make their own foregin passports.

@Figlesquidge Sure they are within their rights to do so, and you're correct that any nation would be offended if they cought anyone else doing the same. The media will always find away to play their game no matter who says what. It still is funny to watch all the postering knowing what is going underneath is different story.