I happen to agree with Balki that he should not have a "loss" on his record from the past game where he was the power thief. Reading the QT threads makes it clear that there was an unfortunate mis-adjudication by the GMs, and in fact Balki should not have been nightkilled by the mafia - the mafia's tied nightkill vote was mis-adjudicated.

Things like this happen because people are human and humans make mistakes. I know I do. However, once Balki's death (and his powerthief role) had been announced to the other players, it was impossible to put the mistake right without re-starting the game.

That said, it's not really fair for this to be recorded as a "loss" on Balki's part. He did not lose. He died due to a GM error.

Hey, third parties are easy. I've won 100% of my hames as a third party; and infinite % of my games as mafia. Ya'll just need to get better. ;)

Infinite percent?

@Balki, I believe that is something you should talk to the M15 mods about. They were the ones who adjudicated that game. I would recommend pming them.

0 divided by 0, Jamie.

That's only true for some values of infinity. ;)

0/0 is not infinite, it is indeterminate

in other words, no real number times zero equals a nonzero number, but any real number times zero equals zero.

This points system is broken lol. How am I tied with Vashta?

threadID=1324797

for the sake of ND's sanity, move the points discussion here.

Flum, I already told you, you secretly suck at mafia. Or maybe I'm just underrated.

I wonder how many people will mute that thread

Where is this "points system" that Fluminator is talking about? Is there a published ranking?

FOUND THE FLAW. I was in mafia 5, where my team lost because they didn't listen to me to lynch Vashta. It isn't accounted for in the points..
Man captainmeme, do your job.

@Jamie
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1sK1jeadbf2ZHEdOcJvH0ASg39YF9JUPVeGZYkQXnep4/edit#gid=0

I don't see any errors :)

Now I'm tied with Guak. Fascinating.

Seriously though, with regards to the Balki situation - in general what the GM says in the Mafia chat, regarding Mafia voting rules, overrules what is said in the main thread if it contradicts it, thus the Balki kill was not misadjudicated.

There is precedent for this - in both M12 and M14 the same situation has happened, with the following exchange in the M14 God QT:

"Why was DL8 killed and not Yoyo?

The rules of the game thread:
"The third level of voting refers to Mafia members choosing their NK (nightkill) targets during Night phases. The mafia members will use their separate QuickTopic thread to discuss this. Please make your votes in bold, like so: kill Eden (< b > kill Eden < / b >). Mafia NK will be decided by majority vote. In the event of a tie, the oldest vote will break the tie." "

Y2k (GM): "Those rules are copy/paste, I posted in Mafia chat I would accept the latest vote. GM > the "rules" "

Welcome to webdip mafia, the game where everything is made up and the POINTS DON'T MATTER!

seriously ND specifically asked this thread be kept clear for new registrants. lets move the tangents to my absurdity thread.

Sigh, whatever discuss it here. But, I am only extending sign-ups through Saturday. After that TrPrado and I are going to finalize this for January 4th. If you want to play in it sign up by then. Thanks.

@captainmeme,

On December 1, 2015, in response to my questions about the adjudication, you said:

"Ugh. Yes, looking back I believe we misadjudicated that. Unfortunately we wrote the rules wrong initially in the Mafia QT and had to correct them very close to the end, and I didn't look to see what was written in the main thread. I'm really sorry about that.

Given that I announced that it was most recent vote as tiebreaker in the QT, we'll stick to that now though."

On December 2, 2015, in response to my questions about it being almost impossible for the Power Thief to win, under the rules, you said:

"Power Thief autowins if he survives to a 1v1. That was supposed to be in the PT doc, I realise I forgot to put it in."

Now you say that what the GM says in the Mafia thread (which is secret from everyone else) overrules the official rules posted at the start of the game? So the rules are not only changing, but secret to all but the mafia?

That makes no sense. I could see a rule clarification posted in the mafia thread governing if a rule were ambiguous. But here, the rule was unambiguous. Under the stated, public, official rules, I should not have died.

I could also see this being rather inconsequential for a role other than a third party. After all, a misadjudication between two townies isn't necessarily a big deal. Either one can win either way. But when I was given a role whose sole purpose was to avoid being killed, the stated rules gave me a near-impossible task, and I was killed in violation of the official rules, the misadjudication is rather consequential from my perspective.

I think you should reconsider, if the rules and standings are to have any meaning at all.

@Jamiet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1sK1jeadbf2ZHEdOcJvH0ASg39YF9JUPVeGZYkQXnep4/edit?usp=sharing

playing mafia with a bunch of lawyers - happy days

balki - no one cares mate - let it go

I agree with Balki.

Transparency is essential for fair adjudication. If the rules can be changed by simply declaring rule-changes in the Mafia QT that's hardly transparent.

If we are going to say Balki did not die. Then MXV is a voided game for everyone. If I was killed N1 that changes the entire flow of the game.

I think as a webdip "community" all interested parties including the GM's should have a say in whether Balki should be awarded a null implying he never even played in the game. (all of this implies the scoring means jack shit)

Finally, if its enough to keep a very skilled player from wanting to play anymore then maybe we ought to consider some sort of consolation points. Id say 1.5 for GM Error or something. (again, do we actually care about the points?)

Balki is likely more upset he didnt get to play than he is about the points. Which no point scoring adjustment is ever going to appease anyway.

It's transparent, but it may not be consistent. Shit happens.

The mafia kill is something no non-Mafia player should get a say in, therefore how it is adjudicated is only relevant to the Mafia. There's no need to announce a rule change as to how the Mafia vote in the main thread, since it's only relevant to those in the Mafia QT.

Yes, Balki's kill was a misadjudication based on the rules stated in the opening post, but it was the correct adjudication based on the rules update in the Mafia QT. At the time, I had forgotten about the rule stated in the thread, but given that I clarified the correct ruling there, well before the deadline, the Balki kill was the right one.

I don't get why there's such a fuss over it. The scoresheet is a fun thing to keep track of games and progress (that's why I made it) but it's unofficial and not really something to get so worked up about.