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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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gamemaster1 (0 DX)
29 May 09 UTC
Moderator help
in game "the game #9" Autumn 1905, Diplomacy all players voted for an unpause and the game has not resumed. can a moderator please take a look at the game?
0 replies
Open
Peregrin__Took (0 DX)
29 May 09 UTC
Small Problem....
Hey, I've noticed that in my games, some players' enter moves and I can't know if they had...like, you know how there's the green check to show that you entered moves and a red "x" that show that you didn't? Some of the time they seem to be inaccurate.
14 replies
Open
BigBur (100 D)
28 May 09 UTC
Deleting Sent Messages
Can this feature be added? Say the recipient of the message you send is not logged on and looking, can it be redacted? The reason I ask is because if I were to divulge information that I wasn't supposed to, I can't just take it back.

Granted, in real life, you can't redact what you say. However, using appropriate body language and explanations - you might be able to weasel out of a bad situation, which you can't do here on phpDiplomacy...
8 replies
Open
mysterio (100 D)
28 May 09 UTC
Top Dog
I've been looking through past games and trying to find the most successful player in the game. Can anyone find who has the best win percentage? (i dont count "most points" as being the best player)
32 replies
Open
Friendly Sword (636 D)
28 May 09 UTC
People who know they are about to be stabbed but let it happen anyway.
What should be done with these people?

Or is their subsequent misfortune punishment enough?
17 replies
Open
Jacob (2466 D)
29 May 09 UTC
Anyone interested in a 5 pt WTA game tonight?
post here if you're interested. I need seven people who would agree to ten minute phases. I want the game to last no more than 3 hours max.
16 replies
Open
jasoncollins (186 D)
27 May 09 UTC
Hi, my name is Jason, and...
I'm addicted to diplomacy *hangs head in shame* :)

I suppose work has something to do with it, but seriously, when you are checking for that little message icon every 5-10 minutes on your computer, 'just in case'? Or you can look it up on your phone...
32 replies
Open
LanGaidin (1509 D)
29 May 09 UTC
Calling all Airborne:)
Just wanted to remind airborne to unpause our second tournament game. Everyone else is good to go.
0 replies
Open
ag7433 (927 D(S))
28 May 09 UTC
New Game: Economics of a Sunk Cost
WTA // 238 pts // 30 hrs
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=11184
8 replies
Open
mapleleaf (0 DX)
28 May 09 UTC
New game
Winner take all - high stakes
10 replies
Open
SpeakerToAliens (147 D(S))
28 May 09 UTC
New Game: When you Play the Game of Thrones...
Please join my new game: PPSC, 50 point buy in, 30 hour turns.
2 replies
Open
figlesquidge (2131 D)
25 May 09 UTC
North Korean Nuclear Test
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/8066861.stm

What do people think will happen? As the correspondent says, there don't seem to be any options left short of war...
119 replies
Open
Jacob (2466 D)
27 May 09 UTC
A way to cut down on people going CD
This would require additional features, but here's the idea anyway...

34 replies
Open
wydend (0 DX)
29 May 09 UTC
new game
need some players. New at this so new players to face would be nice. The game is Bleh-3
6 replies
Open
Crazy Anglican (1067 D)
28 May 09 UTC
A debate regarding religion's affect upon health
First off: If atheists and Christians endlessly debating their respective views ticks you off, you have my apologies in advance, and please disregard this thread.

23 replies
Open
KingTigerTank (100 D)
28 May 09 UTC
BUG @(to admin)
http://www.phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=11097 look at my move from spain to marseiles. and spain didn't become my territory afetr the move. though u can see the arrow mark.
7 replies
Open
Pete U (293 D)
28 May 09 UTC
Meta-gaming
Having moved over from FB Dip, I'm curious to know this communities view on meta gaming
12 replies
Open
Youngblood (100 D)
28 May 09 UTC
New players
There are two games for new players
1) Novice
2) New players
0 replies
Open
New Game called Open to all
I need some players in this 12 hour phase game, who is interested. Its called Open to all.
0 replies
Open
DingleberryJones (4469 D(B))
28 May 09 UTC
Two new 105pt WTA Games
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=11174
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=11175 GUNBOAT
0 replies
Open
Raskolnikov (100 D)
28 May 09 UTC
New Game: Just for the Experience
Intended for newbies like me, a new game--"Just for the Experience"--is now up and looking for players.
0 replies
Open
Jamiet99uk (808 D)
14 May 09 UTC
Moderators: A formal complaint.
I would like to make a formal complaint against another user of this site. Can a moderator look at this if you have a policy for dealing with complaints?
382 replies
Open
Captain Dave (113 D)
28 May 09 UTC
To any Moderator...
See inside please!
3 replies
Open
Sicarius (673 D)
28 May 09 UTC
sitter needed
until sunday night/monday morning

I'm going to the bash back convergence in chicago
10 replies
Open
grandconquerer (0 DX)
28 May 09 UTC
Suspicious Activity?
Can someone take a look at this game please?
http://phpdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=10691
It seems like something fishy is going on
5 replies
Open
jbalcorn (429 D)
28 May 09 UTC
CD Hall of Shame
Players who take over CD countries and then go CD again because the country they took over wasn't winning.
8 replies
Open
kingdavid1093 (100 D)
28 May 09 UTC
new game
new game
The Only Game You Need To Care About
0 replies
Open
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
28 May 09 UTC
9mm
If you have a game with this player, can you tell him to join his league game please. He should be getting the link soon.
1 reply
Open
Thucydides (864 D(B))
24 May 09 UTC
Atheists: I need your help
From Richard Dawkins' book "The God Delusion" there is a famous few paragraphs where Dawkins basically lays low the argument for god in a few words.... something about how much better the world would be without God. It's been quoted on this forum before and I'd like to have it for a paper I'm doing anyone know what I'm talking about?
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Chrispminis (916 D)
26 May 09 UTC
"Good stuff, and I've been waiting for this from you. Quite the disciple of Dennett and Dawkins from what I've gathered..."

While I agree with much of what Dennett and Dawkins say, I've had an atheistic world view that far pre-dates the publication of "The God Delusion" and indeed any of my introduction to the large debate. I've always had a voracious sense of curiousity and while I once held a sort of mystical idea of deism in mind, I abandoned this when through my increasing scientific knowledge and discovery of principles such as anthropic reasoning I've come to the conclusion that I needn't assume deism when nothing requires a God and the universe would look much the same if it happened that there wasn't one. I used the concept of kin selection which is Dawkins, but the idea of social co-operation is I believe, my own.

"We don't have a perfect understanding of God's will, nor do I believe we ever will short of the New Heaven and Earth."

So then by what authority can you say that homosexuality is a sin or that eating shellfish is OK? By what means can you know that your morality is really the morality that God has lain out for you?

"It simply makes them better at preserving life. And who says that preserving life is a good thing?"

Nothing. It's simply that the only life that exists is the one that values self-preservation. This is inconsequential because I believe I've postulated a reasonable natural mechanism by which morality may arise in humanity which doesn't resort to the assumption of a supernatural being. It's sort of strange because if I were to assume that I am God's creation, then what does it matter if I'm atheist or not? Should I not have the same morality? Perhaps you're not accustomed to the idea that relative scale doesn't mean that anything can and will happen, but to postulate the existence of a supernatural being that you cannot ever be certain to exist as a means of bringing in some sense of absolution in a relative world you're merely living an illusion. It must be some grand coincidence that the moral values we have today are exactly those which we find to be helpful and conducive to our continuing social co-operation as would be expected by evolution.

@CA
"Theist's do not rally around the general idea that "there is a God or gods" any more than atheists rally around the contrary point."

I strongly disagree. I think it's quite apparent that theists rally around the idea that their God exists in the form of religious organization. This is one of the most prevalent forms of organization as you have churches and receive government subsidies. You gather to worship, and you gather around the idea of your respective God. There is no comparable equivalent amongst atheists except very recently, but I would say that is only because religious people have grouped us together as non-believers to the point that atheists are the most mistrusted group of people in America. People gather together to show off their collections, but there are no groups of people who band together because they don't collect things. It's only when suddenly the collectors get government funding, hold high office, and form a large part of a population and say in polls that they believe that people who do not collect objects should not be trusted and would not be voted for that maybe people who don't collect objects would start forming groups to combat this. I don't think you understand that atheism is a lack of religious belief, it is not an equivalent belief. I am not defined by my atheism toward your Christian God any more than either of us are defined by the fact that we are both atheist toward leprechauns and satyrs. While you might see gatherings of people who think satyrs are real (maybe some obscure cult), you will never find a group of people who are banding together because they don't think satyrs are real, and in that same sense I say that atheists do not rally around their common skepticism of God, except in light of their recent unveiling as a minority facing discrimination.

"To the idea that membership in secular groups (political parties perhaps) could have similar health benefits. I have seen no evidence to support that. Can you find a study?"

No, I don't know if one has ever been done. Can you show me the studies you're referring to? Perhaps one of them has used a secular group as a comparative control. My claim was just based on an intuitive sort of logic. I can't see how simple belief would impart health benefits except because it serves as common ground in a social group and as being a valid member of a social group you share the health benefits of being in a comfortable social position. Belief itself doesn't empirically change something. If I have cancer and I believe the great JuJu in the sky will eat my cancer away for me, it doesn't increase my chances of survival.

"I'd suggest that you make value judgements based upon your worldview (you've argued some in this thread) as well. There is nothing sinister or remotely troubling about making value judgements based upon the words of Christ."

I would suggest that you make secular value judgements that aren't based upon your belief either. Perhaps you say that people shouldn't eat foods with trans fat. The difference between secular and religious value judgements is very important to recognize. Religious value judgements are based upon the assumption that your respective deity exists and has decreed these value judgements, yet you cannot provide real empirical evidence for the existence of your deity. Secular value judgements must be based on empirical evidence. You can say that people shouldn't eat trans fat, and you could justify it by showing the empirically shown negative health effects of trans fat. You cannot, however, say that people shouldn't eat trans fat because God hath decreed that trans fat is the fat of the Devil. I know that to you your God seems quite the reasonable prospect, and it's not such a big deal to make value judgements under the assumption that your God does exist, but your value judgements can radically affect others who may not share your belief. Belief is entirely subjective, while empirical evidence is not. What if the President of the United States suddenly came out and said that a wizard from another planet came to him and told him that oral sex is wrong and will send a meteor to destroy Earth if we continue this practice and as such he is instituting new laws that will jail anyone who has oral sex and has called for the nations of the world to the same. You'd be absolutely correct, and I'd join you, in saying that the President is nuts, his claim is ludicrous, and we demand empirical evidence to the existence of this wizard at the very least. The President responds that the wizard is standing next to him but only he can perceive him and that the wizard is beyond any scientific means of detection. You'd be right in saying that the President cannot press his unfounded value judgement on a populace that doesn't share his beliefs. You can argue that this is different because the President's view is clearly ridiculous, while the Christian worldview is more reasonable so this is not a valid example... but I would say that they are logically equivalent in their unprovability and that I as a person can tell you that I find the Christian worldview to be every bit as ludicrous and ridiculous. I feel the same way about Islam, Buddhism, Scientology, and Norse Mythology. Would you stand for it if the majority of Senators ascribed to Norse Mythology and spent most of their time polishing axes awaiting Ragnarok? No. Value judgements should be made on empirical evidence, not logically equivalent and entirely subjective beliefs in the supernatural.
Chrispminis (916 D)
26 May 09 UTC
WhiteSammy, I agree with you, but from the other side of the fence. I find this new atheist movement to be well-meaning but too aggressive. While I must say that religion has too long avoided criticism, it doesn't change that you're trying to persuade people who will take offense to religious criticism. I believe, as you probably do as well, that when someone examines the facts (with a solid understanding of science) they will come to the same conclusion as me (or in your case to you).
Pandarsenic (1485 D)
26 May 09 UTC
Re: bartdogg

My belief (there, I said it) is based on the logic of that "nothing can come from nothing" and basically concludes that there is likely some sort of cyclic eternal big crunch / big bang alternation going on.

Am I certain? No.
Would I ever tell someone I believe this to be the truth? No.
Do I believe it to be the truth? No.
I just find it more likely than other solutions (like theism) as it requires less of a premise than God, who demands the contradictory conditions you refuse to see - that something cannot arise from nothing unless it's God in which case it can have always been, but that logic totally can't ever apply to anything else, nuh-uh, nope.

As for the child example, Crazy Anglican, what about if the child, like me, decided to help because (too-advanced-for-most-children-reasoning is ensuing) he considers it to be his obligation as a person. It's not about reciprocation or the afterlife, but about that as a human, WHETHER OR NOT OTHERS WOULD DO IT FOR HIM, he feels it is morally correct for him to do that for them.
bartdogg42 (1285 D)
26 May 09 UTC
Good stuff - warning (I liked this CA), this will be long.

@spyman - On Bob and "I accept there is a potential flaw in my reasoning. The first part "nothing can come from nothing". I have no proof for this statement, but I shall ask you to accept it as self-evident."

Right, in a way your Bob story is similar. However, as the creator, we believe that this creator has a vested interest in His creation. Who creates on a whim and then abandons? Thus, this creator has a desire to interact with His creation, through giving free will, the creation has every right to abstain from interaction. Then, what better way to interact with all of history than through written word? This written word then helps us determine the essence of our creator, who is not Bob.

@Chrisp -
"I used the concept of kin selection which is Dawkins, but the idea of social co-operation is I believe, my own" - It's definitely not your own, I'll get there in a minute.

"So then by what authority can you say that homosexuality is a sin or that eating shellfish is OK? By what means can you know that your morality is really the morality that God has lain out for you?"

The Bible reveals the will of God, though not exhaustively. Homosexuality, for example, is a clear in error per the Bible. As is murder, theft, etc. However what of something like women preaching? This it is not crystal clear on, which is why different denomination differ on it. What about even, gulp, slavery? The Bible says nothing of Roman slavery (which was very different than the much later African Slave trade, which was obvious sin - in that it was the buying and selling of people as property), which was why both sides used biblical passages to "defend" their view. The Bible can most definitely be used to force one's own agenda because it just isn't exhaustive truth. If I felt like God told me everyone must eat cheerios every morning, the Bible does not refute that.

To return to your postulated idea on how morality has developed I say this:
If I understand correctly, basically what you're saying is that everything about us can be explained as a function of natural selection. We've learned throughout the ages to co-operate to the betterment of each person. I'd argue against our reason for cooperation first, because you simply don't see this in nature. Species, or even members of the same species do not, to the ebst of my knowledge, cooperate so that they may benefit. Plus, you're answer that the value of life is innate because it is necessary for life seems really circular. Of course we'd value life, we're alive!

Dennett says this, "Everything we value--from sugar and sex and money to music and love and religion--we value for reasons. Lying behind, and distinct from, our reasons are evolutionary reasons, free-floating rationales that have been endorsed by natural selection."
Akin to this thinking, Scott Atran, Richard Dawkins, David Sloan Wilson and others think that belief in God made people happier and more unselfish, which meant their families and tribes survived and they got better mates. So, though God is not there, we invented him to better ourselves through the ages; belief in God is hardwired into our physiology because in some way it associated with traits that bettered our ancestors' lives. The clues for God and clues to nothing.

Here's my main objection: If this is true, than we cannot trust our own senses at all; afterall, evolution is only interested in preserving adaptive behavior, not true belief. In a "New York Times Magazine" article one scientist says, "In some circumstances a symbolic belief that departs from factual reality fares better." This wass the case, so say Dennett et al, with belief in God throughout history.

So here's the thing: we must than hold that all of our cognitive faculties exist currently to help us live, not to give us any accurate or true picture of the world around us. Patricia Churchland says it like this, "The principal chore of [brains] is to get the body parts where they should be in order that the organism may survive. Improvements in sensorimotor control confer an evolutionary advantage: a fancier style of representing [the world] is advantageous so long as it...enhances the organism's chances for survival. Truth, whatever that is, takes the hindmost." Even Thomas Nagel, the prominent philosopher and atheist says, "[Can we have any] continued confidence in reason as a source of knowledge about the nonapparent character of the world? In itself, I believe an evolutionary story [of the human race] tells against such confidence."

Keller says this, then, "If our cognitive faculties only tell us what we need to survive, not what is true, why trust them about anything at all?"

Two solutions for you then, Chrisp.

1. Backtrack and say, ok, maybe we can trust our minds to tell us about things, including God. If we find clues that seem compelling to us, well, MAYBE he's really there. or

2. Admit that we can't trust our minds about anything.

You're going to choose number one, to your credit, based on what you've said above. I'd like others to intellectually assent.
OMGNSO (415 D)
26 May 09 UTC
Bartdogg42: Firstly you make a difference between More recent slavery and ancient slavery saying that the African slavery was worse because it involved buying and selling people. Actually there is no difference, the romans bought and sold people too.

You do see co-operation in nature. Wolves hunt in packs because that allows them to take down bigger kills. The wolves have a system for ensuring that an entire circle is made around the prey, i.e. they are co-operating.
In addition, sharks allow fish to swim in the mouth, where they act as teeth maintainance. Not only that but sharks usually observe the fish before hand and find out which are reliable. This shows co-operation between species. (Before you dismiss any possibility of co-operation in the natural world, please make sure there are no blatently obvious examples).
Saying that we can't trust our minds about anything falls into a common fallacy, similar to the fallacy which makes the statement "I am a liar" a paradox. It is not that our minds are not reliable/are reliable, but they are sometimes reliable. If you can find an evolutionary reason why the mind might lie, then you must question it (for example heights are rarely dangerous by themselves in modern times, but we fear height because for much of the time we evolved in it was dangerous), but if there is no reason for evolution to distort our view of a situation then it is probably correct. Reliable/not reliable is a false dichtomy on a smooth scale of reliabilties.
In the case of God, the brain has had a reason to be distorted, for the various reasons discussed and we must be suspicious of any instinctive responce to believe in God.
bartdogg42 (1285 D)
26 May 09 UTC
@OMG - They didn't buy and sell them as property. Slaves were very different. They were citizens of society. It was not totally unlike indentured servanthood.

Sure, cooperation takes place in nature but not nearly to the same extent. You can't give a few examples of cooperation in nature and say, "Hey, maybe that's how we evolved! See how wolves hunt in packs and work together? We learned to do that in all things!" That's quite a jump.

And you're again on a pedastol regarding our minds. Who is to say when they are reliable and when they are not? For a disbelief in God it is clear our minds are reliable but for a belief in God it is unreliable? Surely you see that you've elevated you're own thinking and worldview?
OMGNSO (415 D)
26 May 09 UTC
@bartdogg42. Have you studied roman history? Roman slaves were not citizens, in fact even freed slaves weren't citizens. Slave markets have been found from roman times, and that shows that romans traded in slaves.

I am trying not to elevate my view above yours (although after what you said earlier, along the lines of "everyone deserves to die", it has been very difficult for me).
Hereward77 (930 D)
26 May 09 UTC
I second that. Roman slaves were completely under the power of their masters with no enfranchisement. They could be killed by their masters. The main difference was that it wasn't usually racially motivated, and that slaves COULD do very well for themselves when freed. Narcissus springs to mind.
bartdogg42 (1285 D)
26 May 09 UTC
I have studied Roman history a good deal. Yes, slaves were bought and sold I didn't dispute that. I guess my point was the treatment of them as "property." And what I meant by that was just that slaves were given generally good treatment, unless they ran away.

And earlier I was just pointing out our guilt. Biblically, and IMO, we do deserve punishment and death as a result of our rebellion.
bartdogg42 (1285 D)
26 May 09 UTC
Rereading my above comments about roman slavery though I can see why you concluded as you did.
OMGNSO (415 D)
26 May 09 UTC
Too often we assume that things in the distant past were greater than they were. It is one of our society's great failings.
trim101 (363 D)
26 May 09 UTC
@bart who created diseases and all that the?you say humans were givern free will so thats all the crime/wars etc explained but what about natural killers
bartdogg42 (1285 D)
26 May 09 UTC
@OMg - Hmmm. Well I in no way would say that things were greater than they were. The treatment of slaves was better, though.

@trim - Biblically, the entire world "fell" into sin. "All creation was subject to futility." Man was entrusted with stewarding this world and we butchered it up.
OMGNSO (415 D)
26 May 09 UTC
We didn't create disease; it existed long before humans arose. Therefore:
Diseases arose naturally without intervention (i.e. no God).
God created them, which would be an evil act.
bartdogg42 (1285 D)
26 May 09 UTC
"God created them, which would be an evil act."

Really?! Who says it's evil?

It should be becoming obvious I'll not refrain from this question without a sufficient answer. And from your lack of replies I'm going to assume you've no confidence in your answer on moral authority either.

And God "creating" and "allowing" are two very different things. I suppose if I grant you disease existed before humanity, which I'm not but for arguments sake, the Biblical explanation would be that God withdrew his hand of protection, metaphorically, from disease/natural disasters etc.

Go ahead, call him a butcher now:) Get up on the pedastol and say then He is not a God worth worship because He is not good. Just understand you're moral authority is your own, nothing else.
Friendly Sword (636 D)
26 May 09 UTC
Alright bartdogg, lets say God exists. There's this superpowerful being above us, the source of all existence, all morality.... he is both outside of time and in paradoxically.

Now, my question is thus.

How do you know what he says? What the moral compass of God is. Obviously people have different intepretations of religion, even (well especially) within religions.

How do I know that even a single word of the Bible is relevant to God?

Why were a bunch of Semitic primitives so fortunate to hear the pretty complete words of God, while no one since has?

This isn't about your bullshit interpretation of atheism. :P


This is about; why Christianity? Why not Islam? Why not FriendlySwordism?

What makes your particular interpretation of God so special?

This to me is a more difficult question to answer for a self-professed theist.
bartdogg42 (1285 D)
26 May 09 UTC
Well I'll quickly give you the three things that most convinced me. Undoubtedly someone will have objections. Also note that I'm only going to scratch the surface quickly. Trim and Chrisp asked the same question, FS, so here you go.

1. Biblical Prophecy
2. The reliability of scripture
3. The Resurrection

1. I don't have the time to dig for this information right now, but the prophecies of the Bible are uncannily convincing. The Bible predicts, some 600 years before Jesus, a man born of a virgin, a suffering servant, that dies of CRUCIFIXION (mind you, this method of execution had not been invented at the time of the prophetic writing), a man born in the line of David, the exact time of Jesus birth, the place of his birth, and many many other things. It's overwhelmingly convincing and as a rule, Christianity is the only religion that can boast on this enormous stage.

2. The New testament, in particular, has been tested and observed so much more than any other historice text it's frightening. Yet, with absolute flyng colors it passes every test given to any historical document whatsoever. I've spoken about these here before and I'm sure I'll be asked to again. It's proven absolutley reliable.

3. This is the big one, and the clues to the truth are overwhelming. If Jesus rose from the dead, then everything changes. Did he?

First, let's understand some historical events.
1. The tomb must have been empty and here's why. In 1 Corinthians 15 Paul (15-20 years after Jesus) Paul speaks of 500 witnesses that saw the resurrected Christ. If these witness did not exist, this new religion would've been utterly destroyed. "Paul is a liar! No witnesses can be found!" That never happened.
Additionally the way the Bible portrays the resurrection would've been the last imaginable way anyone would've made it up at the time! For example, the first eyewitnesses (according to the Gospels) were women. Women's low social status of the time even made their evidence inadmissable in court! Why would the writers of the Gospel have women be the first eyewitnesses for any reason other than it actually happened?
NT Wright argues, "the empty tomb and the accounts of personal meetings with Jesus are even more historically certain when you realize they must be taken together. If there had been only an empty tomb and no sightings, no one would have concluded it was a resurrection. They would have assumed that the body had been stolen. Yet if there had been only eyewitness sightings of Jesus and no empty tomb, no one would have concluded it was a resurrection, because people's accounts of seeing departed loved ones happen all the time. Only if the two factors were both true together would anyone have concluded that Jesus was raised from the dead."

The tomb MUST have been empty. Skeptics could have easily produced Jesus' rotten corpse were it not.

The main argument then is, then maybe the disciples stole his body and the "eyewitnesses" just went along with it. To that, Keller says, "The assumption behind this very common hypothesis is a form of what CS Lewis has called "intellectual snobbery." We imagine that we modern people take claims of a bodily resurrection with skepticism, while the ancients, full of credulity about the supernatural, would have immediately accepted it. That is not the case. To all the dominant worldviews of the time, an individual bodily resurrection was almost inconceivable."

So what happened? An explosion of a new worldview. How do you explain it but that this Jesus person was bodily resurrected, and witnessed by 500 people in actual history.
OMGNSO (415 D)
26 May 09 UTC
@ bartdogg42
1&2. In fact the Bible gives 3 completely conflicting accounts of Jesus's paternal descent one of which is simply that jesus is descended from God and not Joseph. I assume one of the tests given to a historical document is that it must be interally consistent. Since the Bible is not internally consistent it cannot have passed this test "with flying colours".
In addition the Bible has been rewritten many times such that prophecy could be added to the old testament to corroborate the new.
3. The resurrection is silly. No really it is very silly. God wished to forgive man (doesn't god wishing to forgive man mean that god had forgiven humanity already) so he sent himself down to earth and then had himself killed, so he could alter the laws which he had written in the first place.
You mention "intellectual snobbery"; the idea that modern people are automatically more intelligent than ancients. You are correct that it is wrong but in the wrong direction. All humans suffer from intrinsic naiivity and persuadability and most people are convinced of religion by a small amount of indoctrination and needing no evidence before believing rather than thinking.
OMGNSO (415 D)
26 May 09 UTC
@ Friendly Sword.
I'll become a Friendly-swordist! Amen.
:-P lol
bartdogg42 (1285 D)
26 May 09 UTC
@OMG - 3 completely conflicting accounts huh? So, that I am a descendent of Thomas Whitehouse (my grandfather) and Greg Shadle (father) BOTH is totally impossible? Do I really even need to point this out?

And your response to my historical argument for the resurrection is to say, "no, it's silly?" Really? He altered nothing and you have no understanding of justice whatsoever. Besides, you're explanation for why the resurrection is silly has nothing to do with the historical realities I was pointing out. Man, and I say this in total self-control and with respect, but if this is discussion is going to continue to be your sounding board I'd rather spend my time elsewhere. I'm interested in serious discussion about historical and philosophical matters.

And you're statement regarding "intellectual snobbery" is quite hypocritical. You're essentially saying, "All humans are quite naive and easily persuaded. They are quite stupid. 'Most' of these dumb people are convinced by religion without evidence." My question is then, are you among the stupid or the atheistic/agnostic enlightened? If among the enlightened, as I'm assuming here, then you are just proving my point about what Lewis calls "intellectual snobbery."
bartdogg42 (1285 D)
26 May 09 UTC
and @fs - If you'd like to bash my "interpretation" of atheism I'd sure like to hear why. That statement is akin to drive-by. Are you really intellectually satisfied by saying, essentially, "You're argument just sucks! It just does!"
Onar (131 D)
26 May 09 UTC
I think that in point three, you gave evidence to the fact that the resurrection could've been faked. Who's to say the apostles, or some other followers didn't steal the body, and then found a way to fake looking like Jesus?
Why use women to corroborate? because their opinions didn't matter. Men could've said that that was what they saw, and no women could've rebutted against that.
bartdogg42 (1285 D)
26 May 09 UTC
Ah, good Onar. I didn't complete the argument in point 3 to be sure.

Here's the thing about the apostles. They went from bumbling, idiotic nobodies (fishermen etc), to people that preached with such authority and died with such conviction that thousands and thousands were convinced. The early church exploded. People die for lies all the time, but not KNOWING what they believe are lies.

And this, "Who's to say the apostles, or some other followers didn't steal the body, and then found a way to fake looking like Jesus?" - Is subtlely (sp?) what I was talking about by "intellectual snobbery." So these 500 people were just really stupid? If you were going to lay down your life for something, wouldn't you want to make sure it was legit? To be a Christian in the Roman Empire was a HUGE deal. You knew you were laying your life on the line. Wouldn't you want to make sure it wasn't some dude dressed up like Jesus? The Apostle Thomas sure did!

And no, women weren't just "corroboraters," they were the first eyewitnesses. The Gospel writers must been under a great deal of temptation to fabricate their accounts so as to be more legit, but they simply weren't.
bartdogg42 (1285 D)
26 May 09 UTC
but they simply didn't is what I meant, obviously.
Hereward77 (930 D)
26 May 09 UTC
The Bible is also one source. This is a genuine question here that I'd like to be enlightened upon - do any other contemporary non-Abrahamic texts exist that corroborate the Resurrection story? Are there Roman or official Judaean government accounts of this? I would expect so if it was such a momentous event.
Centurian (3257 D)
26 May 09 UTC
Leaving the other two reasons alone Bartdogg, I'm not entirely convinced by the prophesy stuff. As a student of history, I've seen alot of things manipulated to "fit" in my time. Could it be that one particular prophesy out of ten thousand talked about cruxifixion and that one suddenly becomes relevant when proved correct? Could it be that Jesus wasn't born of virgin but that story was made up to increase his mystique and comply with the prophesy? Could it be that the prophesies were made up after the events happened, or atleast manipulated to seem to predict events before hand?

I'm not saying any of things are true. But they could be. It calls in some reasonable doubt I think.
bartdogg42 (1285 D)
26 May 09 UTC
@centurian - Agreed. I didn't expect anyone to be entirely convinced and I've asked many of the same questions myself. The clues were just overwhelmingly in favor.
bartdogg42 (1285 D)
26 May 09 UTC
@Hereward - Josephus is really the only one; he was a jewish historian. From wikipedia:

"Flavius Josephus (c. 37–c. 100), a Jew and Roman citizen who worked under the patronage of the Flavians, wrote the Antiquities of the Jews c. 93, which contains a passage known as the Testimonium Flavianum that mentions the death and resurrection of Jesus: "When Pilate, upon the accusation of the first men amongst us, condemned [Jesus] to be crucified, those who had formerly loved him did not cease [to follow him], for he appeared to them on the third day, living again, as the divine prophets foretold, along with a myriad of other marvellous things concerning him." It is widely held by scholars that at least part of the Testimonium Flavianum is an interpolation, since Josephus was not a Christian and characterized his patron Emperor Vespasian as the foretold Messiah. However, a few scholars have argued for the authenticity of the entire passage.
Centurian (3257 D)
26 May 09 UTC
To continue on the prophesies, all you need to do is look at a modern Nostradamos site to be skeptical. Enthusiasts say that he predicted all sorts of things, like 9/11 for instance. But nobody saw it coming via Nostradamos, they only made the connection after the event. Why? Because they were looking for clues. If you look at the actual texts in question for Nostradamos, then I'm sure you will be less than convinced.
trim101 (363 D)
26 May 09 UTC
and what about dinosaurs

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Ivo_ivanov (7545 D)
27 May 09 UTC
One year phpdip
Just wanted to say I made it a year here. Turned out to be quite a nice 'hobby' :)
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